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What kind of feats, if any, work with shocking grasp?
For instance, I am thinking about vital strike and arcane strike.
Vital strike doesn't work, you need to strike with unarmed strike, natural weapon or if you are a magus, with the weapon you wield. In all cases, you double only the weapon damage. Same for arcane strike, iirc.
Both feats would only work if you are performing an unarmed attack after casting shocking grasp. Touch attacks would not benefit from these feats as there is no "weapon" to enhance. However, if you attacked with an unarmed attack (whether you have the Improved Unarmed Attack feat or not), the "weapon" would be enhanced by both feats, but would not effect the damage of the spell, just the unarmed attack.
Weapon Focus (touch) works.
Some incorporeal undead have it, at least.
What am I missing? If weapon focus (touch) works, why does not vital strike or arcane strike work with a touch attack
Because the touch attack itself does no damage, it's merely a carrier for the spell. Note that Arcane Strike would work on any spell that's treated like a weapon (which are Ray spells and spells that actually make weapons, like Flame Blade and Spiritual Weapon).
Edit: To clarify further, most touch spells aren't treated as weapons by the rules, so things that affect weapons don't work on them.
I have been searching the FAQ under vital strike, arcane strike, weapon focus, etc... to see where it says something special about melee tocuh spells not being weapons and can't find anything.
Oh, and are you saying that vital strike would work for scorching ray
Vital Strike definitely doesn't work with Scorching Ray. Both take a standard action to perform.
Nefreet wrote: Vital Strike definitely doesn't work with Scorching Ray. Both take a standard action to perform. Yes, you are definitely correct there.
But just for sake of argument, what about Quickened Scorching Ray?
Driver_325yards wrote: I have been searching the FAQ under vital strike, arcane strike, weapon focus, etc... to see where it says something special about melee tocuh spells not being weapons and can't find anything.
Oh, and are you saying that vital strike would work for scorching ray
Unfortunately, the only spell I can think of that Vital Strike would work for is Flame Blade, since that's the only one I can think of that uses the normal melee rules for attacking with it.
And the fact that the FAQ has to explicitly state that Ray Spells and weapon like spells are weapons for the purposes of things that affect weapons means that the nonlisted ones aren't weapons (or at least very heavily implies it).
Driver_325yards wrote: Nefreet wrote: Vital Strike definitely doesn't work with Scorching Ray. Both take a standard action to perform. Yes, you are definitely correct there.
But just for sake of argument, what about Quickened Scorching Ray? Nope, because then the Sorching Ray is its own swift action.
Driver_325yards wrote: I have been searching the FAQ under vital strike, arcane strike, weapon focus, etc... to see where it says something special about melee tocuh spells not being weapons and can't find anything.
Oh, and are you saying that vital strike would work for scorching ray
1. Spells are not weapons. This is the basic default assumption. Touch attacks are basically like a subset of unarmed strikes, so you can take weapon focus with it. But the touch attack itself doesn't do any damage. The spell does damage, which is a separate thing from the touch attack.
2. No you cannot vital strike with scorching ray. Vital strike is a standard action and scorching ray is either a swift or standard. If they're both standards, well obviously you cant do that. Even if its a swift, as soon as you cast the spell the bolts leave you, and you can't do anything with them. Its an instantaneous effect.
Driver_325yards wrote: Nefreet wrote: Vital Strike definitely doesn't work with Scorching Ray. Both take a standard action to perform. Yes, you are definitely correct there.
But just for sake of argument, what about Quickened Scorching Ray? No.
The RAI AND RAW passes the bleeding obvious here. Vital strike does not work with scorching ray OR shocking grasp. Neither are 'weapon damage'.
Blakmane wrote: Driver_325yards wrote: Nefreet wrote: Vital Strike definitely doesn't work with Scorching Ray. Both take a standard action to perform. Yes, you are definitely correct there.
But just for sake of argument, what about Quickened Scorching Ray? No.
The RAI AND RAW passes the bleeding obvious here. Vital strike does not work with scorching ray OR shocking grasp. Neither are 'weapon damage'.
The RAI AND RAW of Scorching Ray is that it is weapon damage, actually. It just can't be combined with Vital Strike because of action reasons.
Edit: Here's an FAQ about it.
Okay, scorching ray and vital strike definitely do not work together. However, I don't understand why a swift action attack does not work with vital strike. I also don't understand why a ray attack does not do weapon damage. If a ray is a weapon, why would it not do weapon damage?
However, to the point about rays being weapons. The FAQs say that rays are weapons because the question posed in both FAQs asked specifically about ray attacks. Neither question asked about touch attacks.
Further, I don't get how you separate the touch attack from the damage of the touch attack. For instance, shocking grasp is the weapon that is resolved with a touch attack.
So, why could you not take Weapon Focus (Shocking Grasp)?
I really don't get what separates a ray from a touch attack other than the fact that no one has asked a question to the devs about touch attacks.
Really, it just seems like everyone is offering an opinion, but there is nothing rule-wise to base it upon.
I would appreciate it if you hit the FAQ. I don't see any reason why there is a FAQ resolving the ray questions and not a FAQ that resolves touch attack questions.
One way or the other, I don't care. I just would like to have an answer
Erm, no, I'm pretty sure the fact that Ray spells are explicitly mentioned as different means that, by the rules, touch spells aren't weapons (unless they make a weapon, like Flame Blade).
Baring another ruling somewhere that says that touch spells are different from the normal "spells aren't weapons" rules, then they're not weapons, while Ray spells do have a ruling that says they're different.
Driver_325yards wrote: Okay, scorching ray and vital strike definitely do not work together. However, I don't understand why a swift action attack does not work with vital strike. I also don't understand why a ray attack does not do weapon damage. If a ray is a weapon, why would it not do weapon damage?
However, to the point about rays being weapons. The FAQs say that rays are weapons because the question posed in both FAQs asked specifically about ray attacks. Neither question asked about touch attacks.
Further, I don't get how you separate the touch attack from the damage of the touch attack. For instance, shocking grasp is the weapon that is resolved with a touch attack.
So, why could you not take Weapon Focus (Shocking Grasp)?
I really don't get what separates a ray from a touch attack other than the fact that no one has asked a question to the devs about touch attacks.
Because shocking grasp isn't a weapon. A touch attack is a weapon. It is the means of delivery for shocking grasp.
To put it in another light. Could you make a touch attack without any spells or any such things? Just an attack roll to touch them?
Obviously the answer is yes, that is still possible. BUT IT WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING. The touch attack itself is the weapon that is used to deliver shocking grasp, but the shocking grasp itself isn't the weapon. Its just the means of delivery.
Another explanation is this. A truck is something you're capable of driving. You can be skilled at driving a truck. The truck can carry sand. The sand itself is not part of the truck by virtue of being carried by the truck.
Please note that for those monsters that have Weapon Focus (touch) that Nefreet mentioned, their touch actually does damage on its own, without casting a spell to enhance it(check the Spectre in B1 and Banshee in B2).
Your logic on the shocking grasp is unconvincing. You could make the same argument for melee attacks. I could say that the sword does the damage, but the melee attack is what delivers the damage.
Could I make a melee attack without a weapon, yes, but it would not do any damaging unless the weapon (my fist, the sword, ect... it there to do damage). That just sounds plain silly to seperate the tool that does the damage from the attack.
Shock grasp is the tool that does the damage just like the sword is the tool that does the damage.
Stated differently, everyone knows that a sword would do no damage by itself just sitting there on the ground. Obviously something has to deliver the sword to do damage.
In this sense, the sword is no different from the shocking grasp.
PokeyCA wrote: Please note that for those monsters that have Weapon Focus (touch) that Nefreet mentioned, their touch actually does damage on its own, without casting a spell to enhance it(check the Spectre in B1 and Banshee in B2). Okay, but it should make no difference if you always can deliver a touch attack or if you have caste a spell that gives you a temporary touch attack. Who cares if one is permanent and the other is not, that is irrelevant.
The only question is whether a touch attack that you gain temporary through a spell is consider a weapon attack. There has been no FAQ to answer this one way or the other.
I imagine that the ray question was presented to the devs because this very same argument was raised regarding ray attacks. No doubt there were people saying "no, a ray is a spell" and other saying "well how do you know that?" Then we got an answer.
Why not hit the FAQ so we can get answer to this question?
Because you're the only one who believes that a FAQ is needed?
Jeff Merola wrote: Unfortunately, the only spell I can think of that Vital Strike would work for is Flame Blade, since that's the only one I can think of that uses the normal melee rules for attacking with it. Gozreh's Trident is another one (from Inner Sea Gods).
Produce Flame maybe.
Peet
Shadow blade would do it as well. Sorry dude, no one else thinks its unconvincing.
The touch attack is the weapon. The spell is independent of it. Weapon feats apply to touch attacks, but not the spells themselves.
just a note. might have been mentioend but i didn't notice it
there are specific rules that say Rays are treated as weapons, no other spell type has that listing.
Touch attacks are not weapons. They are explicitly "Armed unarmed attacks", as stated in the Combat section.
Rays are different. They ARE weapons, which is why you can have Weapon Focus: Ray, and things like Inspire Courage increases their damage. Some rare few other spells are exceptions, like Flame Blade which states it is treated as a weapon.
You cannot, however, Vital Strike with a ray, because there is no way to make a Ray and a Vital Strike work action-wise.
Vital strike and shocking grasp work quite well together if you are a magus
Cast shocking grasp hold the charge , next round make your attack as a standard action with vital strike if you hit your weapon would deal 2x weapon damage then your shocking grasp damage+ power attack if you have it. You do not get bonus damage for your shocking grasp from vital strike. Yo do that you would need to use empower metamagic or maximize meta magic both of which any self respecting. Magus would have as a feat or from one of his class abilities.
Lou Diamond wrote: Vital strike and shocking grasp work quite well together if you are a magus
Cast shocking grasp hold the charge , next round make your attack as a standard action with vital strike if you hit your weapon would deal 2x weapon damage then your shocking grasp damage+ power attack if you have it. You do not get bonus damage for your shocking grasp from vital strike. Yo do that you would need to use empower metamagic or maximize meta magic both of which any self respecting. Magus would have as a feat or from one of his class abilities.
Or you could cast shocking grasp and full attack on both rounds, rather than casting and holding action one round and then doing less damage than a full attack next round anyways?
Even if you didn't want to waste 2 1st level spells you could cast Shocking grasp one round, and the arcane mark next round for another free attack on your full attack.
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