Goblin Squad Member
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1. Will different Races have starting Ability modifiers, like +2 Dex for Elves?
2. If #1 is true, will Humans be able to allocate a +2 to an Ability of their choice?
3. If #1 is true, and someone's Race Change causes them to lose +2 Dex, will they also lose (temporarily) the ability to utilize Feats they no longer meet the prerequisites for?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hope there is some distinction amongst the different races. Otherwise the character skeletons are just expensive make-up. (For me that also goes to the difference between male and female, but in order to have as many players as possible, and to be PC, developers treat male and female identically. I would like there to be a distinction.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think these things are necessities in order to keep the Pathfinder feel, frankly.
After 40 years of development, the tabletop game has some pretty good balancing factors that work for the tabletop game; how those can be translated into PFO to work essentially the same, I don't know but I'm sure GW has thought of that.
In any case, the races can't be, and should not be, 100% balanced in every circumstance. That is really the point of having racial diversity anyway, you pick a race to gain some benefits in certain areas but sacrifice in other areas.
I hope PFO will have those types of balancing decisions built into the racial aspects of characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since this game is made up of increasingly higher numbers I could actually see them giving quite a few tiny bonuses to Races.
For Instance:
Humans - +1 to any two ability scores, Choose 1 type of Achievement, for that Achievement type you now have 3 points.
Elves - +1 to Dexterity and Intelligence, +5 Will defense versus Enchantments, Slight decrease to Enchanting times, Slight increase to Perception.
Dwarves - +1 to Constitution and Wisdom, Bonus to Encumbrance, +4 Reflex versus creatures of the giant subtype, +4 Bonus to hit versus goblinoid/orc subtypes, +2 to Fort/Ref/Will versus all spells/spell like abilities, slight decrease to stone mason times.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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We changed all the racial bonuses to be fixed upgrades to things related to ability scores, but not to ability scores. For example, rather than getting +2 Dex, Elves get bonuses to Dex-related attack bonuses, skills, etc. (would have to look at the sheets tomorrow to see the exact bonuses).
We did this specifically so race changes wouldn't inevitably lead to heartache and confusion :) .
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Goblin Squad Member
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We did this specifically so race changes wouldn't inevitably lead to heartache and confusion :) .
How does finally switching to the race you've wanted to play all along and suddenly having a bunch of abilities you trained for based on the old race (in the example you gave, dex based abilities) nurfed because the new race has bonus's to something completely different, NOT lead to heartache and confusion?
Or will you work out what races are going to be added and the bonus's they will get when they are added ahead of time before everyone makes there characters?
Or will people switching to new races at least get a chance to respec the abilities affected by the race change (again, from the above example, dex based skills)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What kind of temple/alchemist/mad scientist's lair do you go to to change from a half-orc to a dwarf or a human to a halfling? It sounds terribly painful.
Maybe you just put in a request ticket with the priesthood of Pharasma and the change takes place the next time you die. If the change takes place in the moments between when you die and when you find yourself alive again, any pain from the transformation would just be drowned out by the pain of death and new life.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If race has anything other than cosmetic effects on a character, switching to a race you've been waiting for will change the character's abilities in some way. If the race bonuses are small, on the order of +1 to +10 on a (3d200 keep best/middle/worst) roll, then the change will be strongly noticeable only on brand new characters, or in abilities that you've had all along, but never trained.
In tabletop Pathfinder, some people already choose their race to best augment their intended class (or class progression). That's nothing new. Popular character building guides often rank races in order of advantage or disadvantage for a given class.
Archetypes from fantasy literature also nudge players (especially newcomers) toward certain race/class combinations (elf archer, dwarf with an axe, Halfling thief).
As long as the bonuses are small enough to be overshadowed by xp expenditure over time, I doubt we'll see an unusual amount of stereotypical race/class choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How does finally switching to the race you've wanted to play all along and suddenly having a bunch of abilities you trained for based on the old race (in the example you gave, dex based abilities) nurfed because the new race has bonus's to something completely different, NOT lead to heartache and confusion?
If a player plays a human until orcs come available that player would happily accept the changes to their skills and abilities, since their newly acquired orc race is what they were waiting for all along. The only players who would be sad would be those that always look for the negative.
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Actually for their XP/feats system they could only do an Elf get +10% to Dex from feats that upgrade it per exemple, to a top 22. A good way to give the race some their racial beneficial without broke the early character development. Or reduce 10% the XP necessary to buy those racial proficiences (axe for dwarves, light blade for elves, etc...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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So if races get bonuses to certain stat related attack bonuses, does this mean were going to see a River Kingdom full of Gnome Wizards, Human Fighters, and Elven Rogues?
Yes..... Because most MMO players are min-maxers and will roll whatever gives the greatest mechanical advantage for he class / role they are looking to play.
But I'll tell you this from my perspective. If I am an Elf, don't expect that I am role playing an Elf or have any affinity for Elves.
My personal preference of race is actually Halfling, with Human being my back up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We did this specifically so race changes wouldn't inevitably lead to heartache and confusion :) .How does finally switching to the race you've wanted to play all along and suddenly having a bunch of abilities you trained for based on the old race (in the example you gave, dex based abilities) nurfed because the new race has bonus's to something completely different, NOT lead to heartache and confusion?
Or will you work out what races are going to be added and the bonus's they will get when they are added ahead of time before everyone makes there characters?
Or will people switching to new races at least get a chance to respec the abilities affected by the race change (again, from the above example, dex based skills)?
Stephen can correct me if my interpretation is wrong. However the way I read what he said.
rather then for example Elves giving you a +2 to dex, they would give you a +2 to dex related checks/skills/ect... Because of the way feats and progression works this makes a very big difference.
EXAMPLE: Elven two weapon fighter. with 17dex gets a race chance to a Half-Orc 2 weapon Fighter, switching his +2 dex for +2 Str. But now he is no longer a TWF because he doesn't have enough dexterity for the two weapon fighting feat.
So this way all characters no matter race need the same ability score to access feats and such, but the races get a racial bonus to say dex related actions as an example.
I believe this is a much better solution especially for a video game that will add races in the future.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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As currently set up:
Dwarf
Permanent Upgrade: Armorsmith +10, Weaponsmith +10, Miner +20, Smelter +20, Stonemason +10, Heavy Melee Attack Bonus +10, Fortitude Defense Bonus +10, Divine Attack Bonus +10, Sawyer +10, Tanner +10, Carpenter +10, Iconographer +10, Apothecary +10, Scavenger +10, Forester +10, Perception +10, SenseMotive +10, Survival +10, Dowser -5, Sage -5, Officer -5, Seneschal -5, Bluff -5, HandleAnimal -5, Perform -5, Persuasion -5
Elf
Permanent Upgrade: Perception +20, Arcane Attack Bonus +10, Light Melee Attack Bonus +10, Ranged Attack Bonus +10, Reflex Defense Bonus +10, Alchemist +10, Artificer +10, Bowyer +10, Engineer +10, Jeweler +10, Leatherworker +10, Tailor +10, Gemcutter +10, Miner -5, Sawyer -5, Smelter -5, Tanner -5, Weaver +10, Architect +10, Carpenter -5, Arcana +10, Dungeoneering +10, Geography +10, History +10, Local +10, Nature +10, Stealth +10, Planes +10, DisableDevice +10, EscapeArtist +10, Ride +10
Human
Permanent Upgrade: Base Attack Bonus +5, Base Defense Bonus +5, Alchemist +5, Armorsmith +5, Artificer +5, Bowyer +5, Engineer +5, Iconographer +5, Jeweler +5, Leatherworker +5, Tailor +5, Weaponsmith +5, Apothecary +5, Dowser +5, Scavenger +5, Forester +5, Gemcutter +5, Miner +5, Sage +5, Sawyer +5, Smelter +5, Tanner +5, Weaver +5, Perception +5, Survival +5, Architect +5, Carpenter +5, Officer +5, Seneschal +5, Stonemason +5, Soldier +5, Arcana +5, Dungeoneering +5, Geography +5, History +5, Local +5, Nature +5, Stealth +5, HandleAnimal +5, Planes +5, Athletics +5, DisableDevice +5, EscapeArtist +5, Fly +5, Perform +5, Persuasion +5, Ride +5
There is also the current idea of a racial weapon proficiency that, as mentioned, might be less straightforward to deal with. Current thought is that we may just make you pay the (small amount of) XP per regular proficiency if you've got any attacks through your racial proficiency before you race change. They're really not meant as long-term proficiencies anyway, but instead are a way for players to more quickly pursue certain attacks that fit in with their racial sensibilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As currently set up:
Fly +5
Looks like a +5 to every skill, but this caught my eye. If there is going to be a Fly skill, I'm guessing there is going to be a use for the Fly skill. Would this be via Spells, magic items, and possibly mundane items (like gliders)?
I would so love to buy a glider to get down from Keepers Pass.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Humans - The bonuses are small, but they're all over the place, and there aren't any penalties.
This definitely fits with human as a 'Jack of All Trades, Master of None' race. It's not quite as cool as deciding where to put a bonus for each human character, like the tabletop game, but it must be much easier to program than variable bonuses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have you thought about allowing a little more customization?
For instance for ElF/Dwarf keep all the -5s, and reduce all the +10/+20s to +5/+10 then give them some starting points to allocate. The Human wouldn't get these bonuses/penalties, but able to allocate where they want.
You would have to balance it a bit more, but it would allow for more specialized characters coming out having a slight leg up in what they wanted to really do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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+5 = half level in a skill, +10 = full level, and +20 = two levels.
Although, when you are looking at the Defense ones and Attack, those count for more. +4 = full level for attacks, and I think +2 = full level for defense. Those are probably worth more and need to be weighted different.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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A rank grants a +10 bonus but a +10 bonus is not the same as a rank. Bonuses such as racial, feat, and magic items are how you get your skill toward the cap at 300, which has the benefit of improving things like speed and crafting results. But having +20 Miner will not give you +2 ranks as a prereq for harder-to-mine components.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A rank grants a +10 bonus but a +10 bonus is not the same as a rank. Bonuses such as racial, feat, and magic items are how you get your skill toward the cap at 300, which has the benefit of improving things like speed and crafting results. But having +20 Miner will not give you +2 ranks as a prereq for harder-to-mine components.
So it help you do the actual thing (via you have a chance to do better mining) but does not help in training?
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Goblin Squad Member
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At PaizoCon I played a bit in the Alpha and at the default level of training for Mining I wasn't able to mine Iron Ore, it gave an error. Once I trained in it I could. I think what he is saying is just because you are a Dwarf with a +20 bonus but no training beyond base you won't be able to mine Iron, but an Elf with 2 ranks, despite having only a +15 (due to the -5 racial) could mine iron, assuming it takes 2 ranks or less, I had 3 so not sure. A Dwarf with 2 ranks, net +40, on the other hand could mine the iron, and mine it faster then an Elf with even 4 ranks, net +35.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can only train a skill to 200; anything above that must come from bonuses such as the racial bonus. The elf can't get to 310 but he has an easier time getting to 300.
If that is the case then Racial bonuses are head starts with certain skills. That would also benefit those that decide to switch to a newly available race, whereas they may not lose any skill points at all or at least not more than 10 points.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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You can only train a skill to 200; anything above that must come from bonuses such as the racial bonus. The elf can't get to 310 but he has an easier time getting to 300.
Correct. While others are figuring out enchants, feats, and temporary buffs to hit the 300 cap, the racial bonuses makes it easier, so you can focus some of your build on something else beyond hitting a 300.
And as you level up, you'll be functionally a rank or two ahead for most of the benefits of the skill, just not for meeting prereqs.
(I think I've mentioned this before, but the reason that skill rank is tracked separately from skill total and used for prereqs is that it's permanent. Your game goes to weird places when a stat that can be buffed counts as a prereq, so people can put together a big temporary increase, meet the prereq, and then drop back down to a rating never designed to go with that prereq/bypass a lot of the advancement limits on getting that prereq.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was looking over the bonuses and it seems odd the Dwarves (yeah, I know....selfish of me) should get some bonus to Engineering. While it is true the Dwarves have lost much of their engineering expertise from their Golden Age, an Engineering bonus would get the Dwarven race up a tad from the 200 or so we are at (including the penalties). Even in the Pathfinder Lore Book on Dwarves we are known to be great Engineers.
We have great cities to build!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It was said that each character can change race (once, for free) when new races are added.
First, I wouldn't be surprised if changing race isn't something offered in the cash shop. But, I do have a question.
When a new race is added, can the free change be to one of the races that was not a new addition?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The language we've been given is that you will be able to change to a new basic race when that race is deployed, if you have not already changed race. There's no particular reason why people should be given a new chance to switch to gnome when half-orc is released.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The language we've been given is that you will be able to change to a new basic race when that race is deployed, if you have not already changed race. There's no particular reason why people should be given a new chance to switch to gnome when half-orc is released.
Maybe they were waiting to see what Half Orc offered, didn't like it, but was rolled as an Elf and would rather be a Dwarf since Half Orc was off the table.