Knee-jerk reactions from the Advanced Class Guide


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Nicos wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

The slayer to me screams 'I am Artemis Enterai' and that is a good thing.

And drizzt too, unless he began to cast spell in some book that I did nor read.

Possibly. If I were to rebuild Drizzt using PF I would likely use either this class, but Drizzt is a Weaponmaster from his days in Menzoberran and stayed that way till he met Montollio.

So I'd Probably go Martial Master/Lore Warden 12, Barbarian2 (represent 'The Hunter ' persona)2, the 4 levels of ranger.


wats em Sneak Attack feats plox


deuxhero wrote:

What's the bloodrager spell list now? At first it had the magi list (which was passable, but meant it couldn't cast some spells every caster in the game could) second it got a unique list that was strictly worse than the magi's.

LoneKnave wrote:


Combine Skald with a Master Summoner (or just, you know, grab the summon spells if you can). Use Summon Monster 2 to summon as many low level, low hp monsters as possible.

Now, Skald shares the rage power, send in the mooks, let the curses flow like the tears from the DMs face.

I like.

The bloodrager spell list ranges from good to meh depending on spell level. Levels 1-3 generally have pretty good and plenty of options, especially level 3: blood scent, fly, force hook charge, heroism, haste, keen edge to name a few. Level four is less impressive, a few decent damage shields, some polymorphs, some walls. Not a ton of high quality buffs, dont really think shocking image is worth the two extra spell levels, stoneskin and greater false life is about it. About half the list for 4 are save negates, which is bad for the bloodrager. A couple of the new spells are good as well. Bladed lash lets you make a trip attack against a foe within 20ft with a +10 bonus(level 1). Line in the sand gives you CHA based combat reflexes for rd/level (level 1, 5 ft reach). Oh, and theres a level one spell that gives you upto ten hp(1/level) if rage ending would kill you, so thats a nice little pickup until you get raging vitality. I like stone discuss, a level 2 spell that generates multiple ranged attacks. Thunderstomp is ok, another ranged trip, no bonus, but longer range. Greater thunderstomp is interesting though. 60ft line, targets all creatures, can trip regardless of size.


Azreal. wrote:
Nicos wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

The slayer to me screams 'I am Artemis Enterai' and that is a good thing.

And drizzt too, unless he began to cast spell in some book that I did nor read.

Possibly. If I were to rebuild Drizzt using PF I would likely use either this class, but Drizzt is a Weaponmaster from his days in Menzoberran and stayed that way till he met Montollio.

So I'd Probably go Martial Master/Lore Warden 12, Barbarian2 (represent 'The Hunter ' persona)2, the 4 levels of ranger.

well, UHm, with the issues of dex to damage I think there have to be 1 level dip into swaschbuckler..unfortunately.


Azreal. wrote:
Nicos wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

The slayer to me screams 'I am Artemis Enterai' and that is a good thing.

And drizzt too, unless he began to cast spell in some book that I did nor read.

Possibly. If I were to rebuild Drizzt using PF I would likely use either this class, but Drizzt is a Weaponmaster from his days in Menzoberran and stayed that way till he met Montollio.

So I'd Probably go Martial Master/Lore Warden 12, Barbarian2 (represent 'The Hunter ' persona)2, the 4 levels of ranger.

as a side note drizzt could put up magic wards (happened in one of the early books when he was in icewind dale against the balor can't remeber his name) he all so still had most of his drow racial abilities but some where weakened or lost due to the sun.

otherwise love the fact that I can get a flying mount for a medium creature at lvl 1


Wondering how in the world the elf's arcanist FCB is supposed to work... It doesn't raise the max number of their resevoir for sure, but then what's the point?

Nevermind, I read that completely wrong.


Ravingdork wrote:
Keep it pleasant. This thread is meant to be fun, not vitriolic.

+ for proper use of vitriolic.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I really don't like these archetypes that one up the new classes at their own game.

I get that not all hybrid classes are gonna be better than their parents. I get that in the spirit of hybridizing everything archetypes that give base classes some of the new class' abilities... but when said base class just gets to be better than the new class at the thing the new class was designed to do... it gets silly.


Squiggit wrote:

I really don't like these archetypes that one up the new classes at their own game.

I get that not all hybrid classes are gonna be better than their parents. I get that in the spirit of hybridizing everything archetypes that give base classes some of the new class' abilities... but when said base class just gets to be better than the new class at the thing the new class was designed to do... it gets silly.

Only the only classes that have been are the fighter and rogue (and sorcerer depending on who you ask) and the fighter and rogue are very poor benchmarks...


I don't mind it when the ACG class is meh (Hunter vs Sacred Packmaster, Swashbuckler vs Daring Champion) but when the class is already really good (Arcanist vs Exploiter) it gets silly.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
K177Y C47 wrote:


Only the only classes that have been are the fighter and rogue (and sorcerer depending on who you ask) and the fighter and rogue are very poor benchmarks...

Naw I meant the base class archetypes in the ACG trumping the ACG class.

Namely the examples that Rynjin put forward. Kinda shooting yourself in the foot when you put your replacements for a class in the same book as the class you're replacing.


Squiggit wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:


Only the only classes that have been are the fighter and rogue (and sorcerer depending on who you ask) and the fighter and rogue are very poor benchmarks...

Naw I meant the base class archetypes in the ACG trumping the ACG class.

Namely the examples that Rynjin put forward. Kinda shooting yourself in the foot when you put your replacements for a class in the same book as the class you're replacing.

OH!!!! I read it backwards hahaha

Well that is true then!


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Lore Warden/Martial Master Fighter seems better than the Brawler in my humble opinion.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sacred Huntsman doesn't share the Divine Hunter's restriction regarding the animal domain or the Packmaster's restriction on applying class features to multiple animal companions

Which is pretty cool, but probably gonna get nerfed to all hell.

...Took me a while to decide to post this one because I like the trick so much.


Apparently the extra uses of martial flexibility feat is +3 per pick.

I could easily see a brawler that picks up power attack and then just that feat.


Was looking for for the archetype which gave WP full BAB. Was disappointed.


Undone wrote:
Was looking for for the archetype which gave WP full BAB. Was disappointed.

I keep seeing things along these lines, but honestly, I don't understand why. There are no Full BAB, 6 level casters. Think of the WP as a Divine Magus (Who uses Buff's instead of Touch Attacks).


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Dexion1619 wrote:
Undone wrote:
Was looking for for the archetype which gave WP full BAB. Was disappointed.
I keep seeing things along these lines, but honestly, I don't understand why. There are no Full BAB, 6 level casters. Think of the WP as a Divine Magus (Who uses Buff's instead of Touch Attacks).

No idea why, considering we now have three 3/4 BAB FULL 9th level casters. If all 9th level casters were 1/2 BAB, I don't think I would mind this nearly as much.


Suichimo wrote:
No idea why, considering we now have three 3/4 BAB FULL 9th level casters. If all 9th level casters were 1/2 BAB, I don't think I would mind this nearly as much.

4 actually, but they are all divine casters. The 1/2 BAB divide for 9 level spellcasting only hits the arcane casters as a result of backwards compatibility. Once the Cleric and Druid exist in that fashion, Oracles and Shamans pretty much have to as well or they won't see the light of day in many gaming groups.

The full BAB restriction is kind of important seeing as how non-spellcasters are so easily eclipsed by high level magic anyways. Once a full BAB class with more than 4 level spellcasting shows up, well, I don't really want to think of that.


Grey Lensman wrote:
Suichimo wrote:
No idea why, considering we now have three 3/4 BAB FULL 9th level casters. If all 9th level casters were 1/2 BAB, I don't think I would mind this nearly as much.

4 actually, but they are all divine casters. The 1/2 BAB divide for 9 level spellcasting only hits the arcane casters as a result of backwards compatibility. Once the Cleric and Druid exist in that fashion, Oracles and Shamans pretty much have to as well or they won't see the light of day in many gaming groups.

The full BAB restriction is kind of important seeing as how non-spellcasters are so easily eclipsed by high level magic anyways. Once a full BAB class with more than 4 level spellcasting shows up, well, I don't really want to think of that.

I completely forgot that Druids got 3/4.

The crazy thing is, 3.5 had both a 3/4 BAB Sorceror and 1/2 BAB Cleric in Unearthed Arcana, the Battle Sorceror and the Cloistered Cleric.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dexion1619 wrote:


I keep seeing things along these lines, but honestly, I don't understand why.

Because the warrior-cleric who gives up high level spellcasting for martial prowess but isn't actually much better in a scrap than the base class is silly.


I've had a lot of surprises with the book and my impression of the whole thing is this: it may not be any more powerful than the tricks you could do before but the starting point for optimization is leaps and bounds above where it was a month ago.


Squiggit wrote:
Dexion1619 wrote:


I keep seeing things along these lines, but honestly, I don't understand why.
Because the warrior-cleric who gives up high level spellcasting for martial prowess but isn't actually much better in a scrap than the base class is silly.

Yup, I see the warpriest as a little better in the front line than a regular cleric but only for a few rounds per day.


Suichimo wrote:
Grey Lensman wrote:
Suichimo wrote:
No idea why, considering we now have three 3/4 BAB FULL 9th level casters. If all 9th level casters were 1/2 BAB, I don't think I would mind this nearly as much.

4 actually, but they are all divine casters. The 1/2 BAB divide for 9 level spellcasting only hits the arcane casters as a result of backwards compatibility. Once the Cleric and Druid exist in that fashion, Oracles and Shamans pretty much have to as well or they won't see the light of day in many gaming groups.

The full BAB restriction is kind of important seeing as how non-spellcasters are so easily eclipsed by high level magic anyways. Once a full BAB class with more than 4 level spellcasting shows up, well, I don't really want to think of that.

I completely forgot that Druids got 3/4.

The crazy thing is, 3.5 had both a 3/4 BAB Sorceror and 1/2 BAB Cleric in Unearthed Arcana, the Battle Sorceror and the Cloistered Cleric.

Both of those could be interesting archetypes, but I'd be hesitant to put either as the base chassis for a class.


Dexion1619 wrote:
Undone wrote:
Was looking for for the archetype which gave WP full BAB. Was disappointed.
I keep seeing things along these lines, but honestly, I don't understand why. There are no Full BAB, 6 level casters. Think of the WP as a Divine Magus (Who uses Buff's instead of Touch Attacks).

And much the same way magus is underwhelming and underpowered so is war priest. Without full BAB, wild shape, or 9th level spell casting progression you're going to be weaker in melee than any class that has those. A full melee cleric will out scale and do more damage than a full melee war priest.


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Undone wrote:
And much the same way magus is underwhelming and underpowered so is war priest.

BWAHAHAhahahaha!!!

Magus underpowered?! *wipes tears* That's a good one!


Yeah, I'm not sure where you're getting Magus being underpowered from.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure where you're getting Magus being underpowered from.

It's from a math perspective. The damage a magus outputs X times per day which is subject to SR, resistances, and immunities is very low. Check out the DPR thread for a good example of why.

Any class with low resources should be strictly superior while using the limited resource to those classes without resources or with nigh infinite resources. Unfortunately since both are full marshals and neither those nor the inquisitor are superior to the BR/Paladin/Ranger.

The BR get's superior spells at lower spells Ala the summoner (Wall spells as 3rd and 4th level slots). The blood rager is an almost strictly better magus.

The paladin has unrivaled unique spells in hero's defiance, holy sword, and LoR. It's save class feature made a feat is considered one of the most broken feats in the game by a lot of people. It's almost strictly better than the WP once you consider available options such as the oaths and the ability to drop channeling for a domain.

The ranger get's an animal companion which is the single biggest non Leadership DPR increase in the game along side great skills.

Full BAB 4th level casters have "fourth level magic" in the sense that the spell level is labeled 4. In the same way that summoners have "six level casting" because dominate monster is a "6th level spell".

Unfortunately the magus and the war priest have spells which are actually SIXTH LEVEL. Which means that they're not as strong as something like the full bab "4th level" casters.


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"At 20th level, a martial master can use this ability to gain the benefit of any number of combat feats as a swift action."

500 combat feats is a number!


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Except you have a limit per day. I believe it is up a couple paragraphs.

Shadow Lodge

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Undone wrote:
DominusMegadeus wrote:
Yeah, I'm not sure where you're getting Magus being underpowered from.
It's from a math perspective. The damage a magus outputs X times per day which is subject to SR, resistances, and immunities is very low.

No offense, but have you ever seen a Magus in play? It's nowhere near underpowered.


Xethik wrote:
Except you have a limit per day. I believe it is up a couple paragraphs.

Not really, because the Martial Mastery ability would overrule the limit; Specific > General.

By the same logic, Barbarians are always fatigued when they rage, even if they have Tireless Rage.

I don't have the ACG myself yet, but if that's the exact text for the capstone, it could be easily interpreted as to gaining any number of feats. Especially since I've seen somewhere around 8 people who've made similar posts so far.


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Tels wrote:


I don't have the ACG myself yet, but if that's the exact text for the capstone, it could be easily interpreted as to gaining any number of feats. Especially since I've seen somewhere around 8 people who've made similar posts so far.

They haven't been fully quoting it.

Martial Flexibility wrote:

At 20th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the

benefit of any number of combat feats as a swift action. Each
feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.

So at 20th you can gain 13 combat feat at once. For one minute.


Undone wrote:

The BR get's superior spells at lower spells Ala the summoner (Wall spells as 3rd and 4th level slots). The blood rager is an almost strictly better magus.

The paladin has unrivaled unique spells in hero's defiance, holy sword, and LoR. It's save class feature made a feat is considered one of the most broken feats in the game by a lot of people. It's almost strictly better than the WP once you consider available options such as the oaths and the ability to drop channeling for a domain.

The ranger get's an animal companion which is the single biggest non Leadership DPR increase in the game along side great skills.

Full BAB 4th level casters have "fourth level magic" in the sense that the spell level is labeled 4. In the same way that summoners have "six level casting" because dominate monster is a "6th level spell".

You do realize that if you were measuring it from a pure spell level perspective, Magus and Warpriest look EVEN MORE favorable to 4-level casters, right? Because they get, in effect, Quickened Spells, which would mean that they are effectively 10 level casters, right, which "would put them above 9-level casters"? Not only is your method very silly, but it's silly in a way that doesn't even support your argument.

Magi aren't overpowered, per say, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Warpriests aren't necessarily better than Paladins, but you have to do waaaaay better than that in order to explain why they aren't overpowered.

Also, animal companions being a big DPS boost, HA! If that were the case, then there wouldn't be this big hubbub about the Hunter being underpowered because their animal companions are way better than even the Ranger's.


Scavion wrote:
Tels wrote:


I don't have the ACG myself yet, but if that's the exact text for the capstone, it could be easily interpreted as to gaining any number of feats. Especially since I've seen somewhere around 8 people who've made similar posts so far.

They haven't been fully quoting it.

Martial Flexibility wrote:

At 20th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the

benefit of any number of combat feats as a swift action. Each
feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.
So at 20th you can gain 13 combat feat at once. For one minute.

Now, go look at the Martial Master fighter archetype.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

"At 5th level, the martial master can use a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat he doesn’t possess. This effect lasts for 1 minute. The martial master must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 his fighter level.

Each individual feat selected counts toward his daily uses of this ability.

At 20th level, a martial master can use this ability to
gain the benefit of any number of combat feats as a
swift action."

If you think this gives you infinite feats even after reading this, I don't know what to say. I've had this argument already and I'm not taking it back up.


Martial Master wrote:

Each individual feat selected counts toward

his daily uses of this ability.

Says it right at the beginning. It never changes.

Sovereign Court

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If you take a decently-built magus, and play a normal AP with it. And then ask the rest of the group if he was pulling his weight.

I'm guessing the answer will be either "yes" or "yes and then some".

Just because the magus is not as OP as <insert fashionable thing of the month> doesn't mean it's underpowered.

A class is only truly underpowered if it isn't capable of functioning under "normal difficulty", as demonstrated by the APs.

I have a feeling though, that some people's standards of normal difficulty have been warped as a side effect of an arms race between PC optimization and the GM bringing in higher average CR vs. APL to compensate.


Even then the Magus is high tier. In terms of "Frontliners" the Magus is one of the most effective classes.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Magus is somewhere in the T3-4 range. Does decent damage, has decent options. Not as good at gishing as some of the EK and archetype options out there, but more than passable and certainly a lot cleaner than those.


Even if I know I'll never reach level 20 in this campaign, on this character, I still can't multiclass. It can be the most powerful option at my level with my build, but I'll never be able to do it. Especially anything that loses me caster levels or rounds of a limited resource, like barbarian rage or bardic performance. I'm too stubborn to let it go.


Ascalaphus wrote:

If you take a decently-built magus, and play a normal AP with it. And then ask the rest of the group if he was pulling his weight.

I'm guessing the answer will be either "yes" or "yes and then some".

Just because the magus is not as OP as <insert fashionable thing of the month> doesn't mean it's underpowered.

A class is only truly underpowered if it isn't capable of functioning under "normal difficulty", as demonstrated by the APs.

I have a feeling though, that some people's standards of normal difficulty have been warped as a side effect of an arms race between PC optimization and the GM bringing in higher average CR vs. APL to compensate.

I'm not sure what levels you guys play at but my experiences with magus have all been pretty pathetic. Admittedly if he was using more broken spells (Snowball not shocking grasp, something I've never seen a player actually do) one of them wouldn't be as bad.

Spoiler:

First magus I ever played with died in the waking rune after his attack failed because he couldn't hit on an 11 on his primary and didn't save rolling somewhere in the low numbers then shirt reroll for like a 9 failed max/emp horrid wilting save kills him at level 9. We kill it he get's raised.

My second experience with a magus was bonekeep 1. He couldn't use his spells for the first 3 rooms (Immune, immune, no monsters) In room 4 he tried his nova (For half damage since they took half or zero from elemental damage) the GM rolled randomly for who to attack (As he had since the start. He eats 3 of the four elementals and goes from full to bleeding in one round before eventually bleeding out on his turn and dying. He was level 7.

Next experience was in fate of the fiend. He could shocking grasp because he had the MM feat but demons have SR. He kept failing SR rolls and doing very little damage. In the final encounter he was saved from bleeding to death by the GM electing not to AOE the group (which he would automatically be in) and instead have the boss try to escape.

I've also played in a home game where they've barely pulled their weight occasionally but are always useless when something hard comes up with immunities, resistances, SR, or good AC.

So I can safely say in my experience the magus is UP. I've seen inquisitors be good I just feel it's weaker than a paladin. I've rarely seen a magus do more than roll a ton of D6's. It's cute, like a rogue but it's ultimately pretty weak relative to other classes which attack as a primary source of damage.

Admittedly I've only played with them in difficult adventures but why would you measure how effective something is vs a CR +0? CR +0 represents effectively no serious threat and when permitted to buy a CLW wand or infernal healing wand CR+0 costs effectively 30-50 gold to complete.


It sounds like those Magus were trying to suck. Did they never arcane pool for stacking enhancement bonus? Did they have high enough dex or str? Did they pump int, because they shouldn't have.


So really low op magii against encounters that are designed to hurt them?
Yeah. no surprise
also

Quote:
I've seen inquisitors be good I just feel it's weaker than a paladin.

what?


Lolwut

No disrespect to the Paladin, but the Inquisitor is most certainly not weaker.

It is one of the most versatile classes in the game, both in combat and out.

Bane and Judgement work on everything, and you can get quite a bit of Bane per day (my 13th level Inquisitor has 25 rounds a day with Extended Bane).

Combine with Monster Lore, and you always know what you're up against.


Can we get back to the ACG now please?


First magii are underpowered and now inquisitors are weak??? Really?


Insain Dragoon wrote:
It sounds like those Magus were trying to suck. Did they never arcane pool for stacking enhancement bonus? Did they have high enough dex or str? Did they pump int, because they shouldn't have.

Two were high STR (Bonekeep and TWR) The other was the dervish type I think (Dex, good init). They each had 14 con so it's not like they got wrecked because badly built. The Bonekeep had self buffed using arcane pool to AC 27 or something (28?) and got hit by all 3 hits with 11's hitting. They PA'ed for enough to knock him to negatives. Subsequently he died to damage before we could heal him. They didn't look like garbage when I took a look.

Quote:

So really low op magii against encounters that are designed to hurt them?

Yeah. no surprise
also

So what isn't designed to hurt them after level 5? Animal encounters?

Everything which is mildly difficult has resists/immunities/SR.

Quote:
what?

Basically vs anything evil the smite beats the entire class. Vs non evil Bane is inferior full BAB (late iterative, Late PA progression, worse feat qualification) Inquisitor has worse saves. Judgement does nearly nothing. Charisma is also a better investigative stat as diplomacy/intimidate are key to most situations.


I'll sum up my experience so far playing the magus in an anecdote.

So after I got done killing a large demon that solo wiped the party last session when I was a rogue, I took about a dozen dispel magics with the GM rolling pretty high. The GM was like "OK how many buffs do you still have left?", I replied "uhhh 7". Since I was low on buffs, I started blowing up the room with fireballs and black tentacles.

Magi are very strong. You do have to watch out for the low-ish reflex save and hit points, as you will draw tons of attention as the fighter cries big tears rusting his greatsword. This can be easily solved with spell blending for things like false-life, heroism, and protection from energy.

I find that the wizard has to optimize quite well to keep up with my arcane pool fueled 3/4 casting (spont prep and pseudo pearls of power) and my melee keeps up with the synthesist summoner.

It's not like I'm even optimizing all that much: get 18 base strength (eventually, start 17 then put lvl 4 increase into it), pump int (18 or more base by 8 is good), grab extra arcane pool for every feat, use bonus feats for essentials like power attack and intensify spell. *Duel talented humans are great for pumping stats.

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