Would a Bard with the Arcane Duelist be able to use the Pageant of the Peacock Masterpiece with all knowledge skills? The reason I ask is that the Arcane Duelist loses Bardic Knowledge, so he can't make knowledge skills untrained.
Or would he need to take one rank in every knowledge skill so that they are trained to use that masterpiece?
Oh dear god, not another Pageant of the Peacock thread. In response to your question, my ruling would be that since you aren't making a knowledge check while under the effects of PotP, it doesn't matter if you're trained in the specific knowledge skill or not.
I would say you have to have a rank. While you are making a bluff check in place of the int check you still have to have the ability to make the int check in the first place before you can make the substitution.
Hi Melargo,
I'm not currently aware of an ability there is less consensus on than Pageant of the Peacock. so... ask your GM. If in PFS, the safest thing to do is to assume it won't work the way you think it does.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Melargo wrote: Would a Bard with the Arcane Duelist be able to use the Pageant of the Peacock Masterpiece with all knowledge skills? The reason I ask is that the Arcane Duelist loses Bardic Knowledge, so he can't make knowledge skills untrained.
Or would he need to take one rank in every knowledge skill so that they are trained to use that masterpiece?
You can't use the masterpiece to gain knowledge you don't actually have. You use the masterpiece to convince someone else you're much more learned than you actually are.
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LazarX wrote: Melargo wrote: Would a Bard with the Arcane Duelist be able to use the Pageant of the Peacock Masterpiece with all knowledge skills? The reason I ask is that the Arcane Duelist loses Bardic Knowledge, so he can't make knowledge skills untrained.
Or would he need to take one rank in every knowledge skill so that they are trained to use that masterpiece?
You can't use the masterpiece to gain knowledge you don't actually have. You use the masterpiece to convince someone else you're much more learned than you actually are. Of course you can, it is a supernatural ability which gives you the required knowledge to be convincing.
This does not seem to be the correct thread to derail in an attempt to rehash the arguments made in the many other recent threads on PotP. Regardless of if the knowledge is real or not, the question is still a valid one:
Does a skill substituting for another require training in the original skill if said skill is 'trained only'?
DrakeRoberts wrote: Does a skill substituting for another require training in the original skill if said skill is 'trained only'? Believe me, I have no desire to repeat that argument, but that particular question was a sub-question of our insanely long thread on PotP, and there was no consensus about it.
My argument is that no, you do not need to have ranks in the knowledge check, because you are not making a knowledge check, you are making a bluff check, and bluff checks do not require training. (The fact that James Jacobs confirmed that it actually a bluff check, and treated like one, is why I gave up that argument)
I think that requiring them to be trained in the knowledge has a good balance factor to it, but I don't think there is a solid argument for it.
And without re-opening the general argument myself, my advice to Melargo stands: the opinions on this ability are very varied, so don't make any assumptions about the opinion of your GM.
In order to make a knowledge check above DC 10, you have to be trained. The ability to sub out another skill for it IMO doesn't remove the basic restriction, and is a balancing factor for bards that trade that free untrained check away.
It's still only 6 skills for creature IDs, so easily doable by the time you can use PotP.
I mean, I'm only sort of halfheartedly arguing here, because I don't really want to win this argument, but I do need to point out that you're not making a knowledge check.
Rudy2 wrote: Hi Melargo,
I'm not currently aware of an ability there is less consensus on than Pageant of the Peacock. so... ask your GM. If in PFS, the safest thing to do is to assume it won't work the way you think it does.
You should check out the mounted combat rules sometime, then. Or Mysterious Stranger Gunslingers, or Soheis flurrying in armor. Or simply when you can and cannot take 10 and take 20 on Disable Device or Climb.
Pageant of the Peacock does what it says: You can make Int and Int-based checks using a Bluff check instead. It doesn't allow you to substitute a Bluff check for a check you wouldn't normally be able to make since it doesn't say anything about trained or untrained etc.
Akerlof wrote: Pageant of the Peacock does what it says: You can make Int and Int-based checks using a Bluff check instead. Beyond the explicit question about trained/untrained, I'm not making an argument about what it says it does; those threads have come and gone, and I'm done with it.
I'm merely making a *factual* observation that there there is a great deal of disagreement on how it works, and that the OP should be aware of that when designing a character. Regardless of the arguments on here, any given GM could have a wildly different interpretation, and that's something a player should keep in mind.
Hmm.
This adds another question.
The Vivisectionist has this:
Vivisectionist wrote: Cruel Anatomist
At 3rd level, a Vivisectionist may use his Knowledge (nature) skill bonus in place of his Heal skill bonus.
So, does he need to trained in Knowledge(Nature) to use it, or not?
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