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The interview with the WotC CEO was interesting - he stated that they are earning more revenue from fewer releases than in previous editions.
I wouldn't have been surprised at making a higher profit, but higher revenue wasn't what I expected (though it's possible he was just speaking sloppily - later the interviewer switches to talk about 'net revenue').
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I think he was referring to this article on ICv2 which (erroneously, I believe) suggests the Borderlands is some kind of joint project.
They seem to think that Paizo is involved in almost everything, as they're saying that Paizo is also behind the publication of an English-language edition of Ulisses Spiele's The Dark Eye (originally Das Schwarze Auge.) I wonder how long before they make an article where they claim that Paizo is responsible for the 5e books? :P
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Yeah, I daresay someone has got Paizo-the-retailer confused with Paizo-the-publisher.
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All RPGs are Paizo. (with apologies to Demolition Man)
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All RPGs are Paizo. (with apologies to Demolition Man)
All entertainment of any kind is Paizo.
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Yes the article does seem to conflate Paizo with Frog God Games but my thought was more along the lines of:
Ravenloft 5E and Boarderland Provinces are both new(ish) free-floating settings, rather than ready-to-run APs (or super modules) set in an existing campaign setting.
Except Ravenloft 5E is an adventure, not a new setting. And its a rehash of an existing, already long popular setting. It will get no more than two books and no ongoing support.
FGG supports a niche, and I'm sure they will do well for their standards. But they aren't likely to get their book on the shelves of Barnes and Noble.
It's hardly comparable, and I doubt anyone will be surprised by the results.
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Also, Black Diamond Games has shown Pathfinder slipping in its Top 10 over the past few years (currently at #8), but hey it's in the Top 10.What else is in the Top 10?
Or are we talking more broadly than table top RPGs here? We know that's a niche market.
I think he's talking about this post.
If so, the rest of the Top Ten for 2015 are Magic, Fantasy Flight, Warhammer 40K, Pokemon, CAH, Warmachine, D&D, Asmodee, and Mayfair.
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This older post reports that tabletop RPGs as a category (i.e., 5e & Pathfinder combined) were down 12% in his store in 2015.
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This older post reports that tabletop RPGs as a category (i.e., 5e & Pathfinder combined) were down 12% in his store in 2015.To be expected. The successful launch of 5E was bound to produce a spike for that year which would be seen as a dip the following year.
A reflection on my own sample bias: I don't actually know anyone who still plays Magic or other card games with any regularity. I know of lots who do but it just seems to me like TTRPGs should be bigger than they are. Irontruth convinced me they almost never were big.
1E AD&D was a fad, and RPGs enjoyed some relevance in the Eighties, but their biggest impact was on video games. TTRPG is a nice niche market for a few people to make a decent living on, but it is, commercially, very small potatoes in the entertainment field, outside of inspiration for other media.
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This is a different take on the gaming store. I suspect this could be a much more tenable future for the brick and mortar side of the industry, in communities large enough to support one.
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This is a different take on the gaming store. I suspect this could be a much more tenable future for the brick and mortar side of the industry, in communities large enough to support one.
I'd love to see someone launch a sustainable, respectable dues-based tabletop gaming venue/club.
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Gamer's Club, baby!
- Telly Savalas
Why hasn't ICv2 released any rankings about RPG sells for a while?
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Last year's fall/holiday quarters report came out on February 26th.
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They seem to think that Paizo is involved in almost everything, as they're saying that Paizo is also behind the publication of an English-language edition of Ulisses Spiele's The Dark Eye (originally Das Schwarze Auge.) I wonder how long before they make an article where they claim that Paizo is responsible for the 5e books? :P
Based on the advertising card for The Dark Eye Kickstarter that came with my Paizo subscription, and which contains both the Ulisses Spiele Logo AND the Paizo golem, I'd say that particular item is true. Ulisses Spiele does the German translation of Pathfinder. Everything (admittedly little) I've found seems to indicate that Paizo is returning the favor by helping them with the publication of the Dark Eye's English translation.
New ICv2 Internal Correspondence is out, but a pay wall prevents us from seeing RPG chart.
[url]http://icv2.com/articles/news/view/33833/icv2-releases-internal-corresponde nce-89[/url]
New ICv2 Internal Correspondence is out, but a pay wall prevents us from seeing RPG chart.
Hm. Is it weird that it's behind a paywall? It feels weird, but I don't know how normal that is in the industr(y/ies) for such things.
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The previous rankings have always been free to view.
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These have always been for sale. Perhaps the much publicised rankings will be released in a blog shortly.
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For those interested, D&D was ranked first, pathfinder second. They mention that RPGs are doing really well at the moment, which is good. :)
They mooted a return to reporting the top ten games, rather than the top five (since some like Numenera and Mouse Guard were reported as having done well but didn't make the list).
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I don't know. ICv2Pro was set to launch since the last set of publicized rankings. Call me cynical, but I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to put that info behind a subscription for "retailers, distributors and wholesalers, importers and exporters, publishers, creators, licensing and marketing professionals, and producers."
For those interested, D&D was ranked first, pathfinder second. They mention that RPGs are doing really well at the moment, which is good. :)
Huh. That's interesting, considering the 2015 report from Black Diamond Games. I suppose anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
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I don't know. ICv2Pro was set to launch since the last set of publicized rankingsl.
When is quarter 2 in the U.S.? I thought that was last April?
I've been buying the magazines intermittently for a few years (when I looked into it, the pro thing was only for those in the industry, from memory) and nothing seems to have changed there.
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For those interested, D&D was ranked first, pathfinder second. They mention that RPGs are doing really well at the moment, which is good. :)Huh. That's interesting, considering the 2015 report from Black Diamond Games. I suppose anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
They mention a lot of big press events - apparently Vin Diesel was in something called the last witch hunter and spoke often about D&D in his promotional role(?). They also mention D&D's slow release schedule as being good at attracting newcomers and hence keeping sales ticking over. I daresay the Star Wars movie didn't hurt sales of the RPG, either.
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Hm. Is it weird that it's behind a paywall? It feels weird, but I don't know how normal that is in the industr(y/ies) for such things.New ICv2 Internal Correspondence is out, but a pay wall prevents us from seeing RPG chart.
I don't think it's weird. The ICv2 Internal Correspondence is a magazine for those interested in "geek culture" businesses. The "top ten..." thing is just part of it. I don't know anything about the "pro" version, but I believe they provide the regular version to retailers for free.
It's ten dollars (and there's a fair bit of advertising) but I don't object to paying for it.
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I was disappointed the PACG doesn't seem to have made much of a mark. Though I guess there weren't many releases in the last little while.
Chief Technical Officer
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Based on the advertising card for The Dark Eye Kickstarter that came with my Paizo subscription, and which contains both the Ulisses Spiele Logo AND the Paizo golem, I'd say that particular item is true. Ulisses Spiele does the German translation of Pathfinder. Everything (admittedly little) I've found seems to indicate that Paizo is returning the favor by helping them with the publication of the Dark Eye's English translation.
They seem to think that Paizo is involved in almost everything, as they're saying that Paizo is also behind the publication of an English-language edition of Ulisses Spiele's The Dark Eye (originally Das Schwarze Auge.) I wonder how long before they make an article where they claim that Paizo is responsible for the 5e books? :P
We're just selling the English language version into distribution for them—we have no creative input. (We'll be doing the same with Ulisses' TORG game when it comes out, and the Polaris RPG from our French translation partner, Black Book Editions.)
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They don't provide that kind of analysis (a lot of the data is qualitative, not quantitative, I believe). All it means is that 1 > 2 > 3 > ...
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So, similar metric to the Amazon ranking. Each by itself doesn't say much but all of them together give us a trend.
It gives us a trend for general interest and knowledge, but that's it. Considering that most niche markets live and die by it's diehard supporters, I'm not entirely sure how much that really means. The fact that Pathfinder has a localized source for conversing and buying products that are not reported to any of these secondary sources and 5th edition doesn't makes it really hard to make a true comparison. Add in those people who talk about Pathfinder or any of the other D&D spinoffs but use the default D&D name, terms, and concepts to do so, and the water becomes even more muddied. About all any of these numbers truly show is that on a conversational level, and to a certain extent, on a marketability level, D&D is by far the biggest name; nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't prove that Paizo has a less marketable or profitable brand than WotC because no one outside of the Paizo office ever sees most of the numbers generated by their own store and forums.
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The sales rank of the 5E Players Handbook was #1 at Amazon. Not #1 in some niche portion of the endlessly subdivided categories of books, but #1 in books. That is *waggles hands*.Today the 5E Players Handbook is still at #93 in books with 1,348 reviews (ave.4.5/5.0). Pathfinder comes in at #3,360 in books with 470 reviews (ave. 4.7/5.0).
The problem is that while that very much shows that 5E has a far bigger name, that's about all it shows, and the name recognition is as much about past successes than current ones or the possibility of future ones. WotC has been trying for three editions now to get their multi-platform approach to selling D&D off the ground; they are starting to show some signs of finally getting it to work after almost two decades of effort, but it remains to be seen whether they can fully sustain those efforts. Paizo has earned themselves at least a foothold in almost every category that WotC has been even partially successful in with far less time, money, and effort.
It's great that 5E hit #1 of all books, but that doesn't mean anything if they did so almost entirely on the back of the past with little to no contributions of the present or hopes for the future. They are doing far, far, far better this time around in some ways than they have in the past, but have yet to match other successes from other editions, both their own and TSR's in others, so while the numbers remain promising, there's still a long ways to go before WotC truly proves themselves to have finally figured out how to sell the D&D brand.
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This part I agree with
It doesn't prove that Paizo has a less marketable or profitable brand than WotC because no one outside of the Paizo office ever sees most of the numbers generated by their own store and forums.This part I do not agree with
It gives us a trend for general interest and knowledge, but that's it. Considering that most niche markets live and die by it's diehard supporters, I'm not entirely sure how much that really means.The sales rank of the 5E Players Handbook was #1 at Amazon. Not #1 in some niche portion of the endlessly subdivided categories of books, but #1 in books. That is *waggles hands*.
Today the 5E Players Handbook is still at #93 in books with 1,348 reviews (ave.4.5/5.0). Pathfinder comes in at #3,360 in books with 470 reviews (ave. 4.7/5.0).
These are not just "diehard supporters" giving these ranking results.
Still, it would be far better to be selling the next Cards Against Humanity or MTG for sure.
I'm not certain if Amazon is the best indicator, however.
I will NOT buy 5e anywhere BUT Amazon. For starters, you get almost 50% off at Amazon on 5e D&D stuff.
On the otherhand, I WILL buy PF stuff other places (for example, I'm a subscriber for the APs and Modules from Paizo).
It's all in how much you save, and with 5e, the savings from Amazon are FAR to good to pass up if you are going to buy 5e stuff.
In addition, I know a WHOLE lot of people that buy 5e stuff on Amazon, but won't lay a foot in a game store...ever...again.
Whilst, I, do go to gamestores, and do buy stuff there...but it's typically not 5e (I have others who also buy me 5e stuff...but they buy it from Amazon as well).
However, I wouldn't be surprised if 5e is selling more at FLGS's than PF for one reason.
Most of my PF stuff comes from online these days though...but there is a marked difference on where I buy it compared to where most of the people I know are buying their 5e stuff (online and at Amazon typically).
I don't know how representative it is, may not be at all...but if everyone else is like that, especially in regards to the savings Amazon offers, I don't find it all that surprising 5e ranks that much higher than PF.
Paizo has a sales model that is at least somewhat focused on selling directly via online sales...whilst 5e and WotC do not, and hence most of their stuff if found is by other online sellers (like amazon).
Hence, I think PF stuff may be more focused on online sales from various sources, including a focus to get people to buy them directly from Paizo (I hear subscriptions are Paizo's bread and butter, but I don't any hard numbers to back that up, but it's what I hear).
WotC doesn't have anything like that in truth, right now.
Yeah, that Kickstarter was cringe-worthy on every conceivable level. The whole "if you don't back us then you're a part of the force holding progress back" part was hilarious, doubly so if you consider how technologically backw...conservative the D&D fanbase is.I found it more presumptuous than hilarious, but yeah, that Kickstarter was a train wreck. I doubt we'll be hearing from these guys again (at least in any meaningful way).
Oh vicious irony.
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I agree that anything else (board games, computer games, Bones Kickstarters, food, gas) that takes money from folks is possibly hurting RPGs a little for some, but not much for me. I RPG as much as I can, and table top, computer other times. I buy the RPG stuff I need. I have never not bought some Paizo thing I needed because I had spent money on some other board game...