Transsexuals in Golarion - a question about logic


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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First of all, let it be clear that this is a setting specific question. I have no desire to discuss real-world morality and ethics. The setting has its own rules, its own gods, and its own laws of morality. Any argument about real-world morals (on all sides) simply do not apply here.

Now, how do transsexuals make sense in Pathfinder? There is no moral issue in play here, but I would think that a significant logical issue comes in; bodies can be magically modified to accommodate whatever gender you choose (or both or neither, for that matter). Further, it can be altered to be fully whatever gender you wish it to be, not just the outer parts. If you don't want your body changed, you could also theoretically have your mind changed.

So is there a reason why an adventurer would not choose to have physical gender match up with chosen gender?


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Fergurg wrote:


So is there a reason why an adventurer would not choose to have physical gender match up with chosen gender?

Money? Lasting magic effects that can't be dispelled tend to be pretty expensive. So NPCs might not be able to afford it (see: Wrath of the Righteous, where someone sells a magic weapon to afford it), and PCs would prefer to spend the gold on magic power-ups.


While you asked to not bring the real world into it I would point out there are some very similar issues that might be present.

If they are from Chelax they might think the female form is a weaker one due to religious influence and not want to take that burden on. Or they may simply see it as suffering they have to live with (perhaps as followers of Zon-kuthon... in fact I could see a really interesting cult of his perhaps purposefully changing their genders away from what is comfortable to them in order to suffer more and practice their... craft). It could be they simply do not realize it is possible. Perhaps the character feels responsible for providing a heir as a certain gender (because again while the setting as a whole is generally accepting of equality between the sexes that doesn't mean each culture in it is).

Liberty's Edge

An adventurer? No reason at all (except for the cultural reasons mentioned above, which seem like they'd be rather rare) that they wouldn't rapidly get precisely as much in the way of changes as they desire, since they're likely to get the money together pretty quickly (relatively speaking).

That said...an Elixir that does what you suggest has been more-or-less officially stated to cost over 2000 gp. That's around the price of owning an entire farm or a +1 weapon. It's expensive. So not a whole lot of non-adventurers can afford it. At least not easily. And even among adventurers...that's not 1st level money, it's third or fourth level money at the earliest.

Also, and most importantly...someone who's done what you suggest is still transgender. Since they probably didn't manage it until they were an adult (or at least on the cusp of puberty), which makes them transgender, by almost any definition you choose to use.

Personally, I'd argue them as being transgender whenever they did it, but being adult when they make the choice makes it utterly unambiguous by any definition.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Removed an unhelpful post.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Fergurg wrote:

Now, how do transsexuals make sense in Pathfinder? There is no moral issue in play here, but I would think that a significant logical issue comes in; bodies can be magically modified to accommodate whatever gender you choose (or both or neither, for that matter). Further, it can be altered to be fully whatever gender you wish it to be, not just the outer parts. If you don't want your body changed, you could also theoretically have your mind changed.

So is there a reason why an adventurer would not choose to have physical gender match up with chosen gender?

Because people usually have more than one priority in their lives, so sometimes other things are more urgent.

But if you want examples...

Money's a big one, especially for non-adventurers. Most people in Golarion could not afford the magic required.

Relationships are another. Someone might prefer to be married to a particular person who would not stay with them if they were another gender. Or they might want to not 'disappoint' or 'confuse' their parents or children.

Some may not want to go to the trouble, or think that they have enough value as a person to be worth fixing. And some may not be sure that changing their gender will actually fix anything.

Some people do not fully identify with either gender, so changing wouldn't help.

And many, many more.


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Abraham spalding wrote:
... If they are from Chelax they might think the female form is a weaker one due to religious influence and not want to take that burden on. Or they may simply see it as suffering they have to live with (perhaps as followers of Zon-kuthon... in fact I could see a really interesting cult of his perhaps purposefully changing their genders away from what is comfortable to them in order to suffer more and practice their... craft). ...

You have given me some ... fun ideas for my next campaign band of villains.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Polymorph any object is a pretty high level spell. I don't think there's any other potentially permanent spells that would be helpful for this kind of scenario? So you'd have to go find a 15th level wizard to help you out, which could be a quest in and of itself, or develop a more specific spell on your own, which would take time and resources. The vast majority of people who identify as another sex would thus not have access to such high level alterations, beyond perhaps the efforts of a high-leveled wizard dedicated to Arshea, for example.

It's also stated that, "Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type." This suggests that even polymorph any object might not be able to turn someone into themselves as a female, merely a female of their race who happens to greatly resemble their male self. (Side note: This means if you permanently alter your form via polymorph any object, you can arguably never return to your original form, though wish might get around this.) This might not be acceptable to some individuals, who would rather change their existing body rather than replace it with an entirely new one. Of course, a custom spell might allow for a more palatable transformation...or wish, perhaps.

And, of course, there may well be other reasons even for other people who do have access to these sorts of resources and the willingness to effectively abandon their former body, it would certainly, for example, change a number of their relationships with friends and family unless said friends and family all happen to accept it with a smile. If they even know about it. Some people might rather suffer than risk telling friends and family and potentially destroy their relationships. It's easy to say that they ought to go ahead and be true to themselves, but I think that's a much harder thing to go ahead and actually do, myself. It might be that they're unsure and don't know who they can talk to. It's possibly they don't have the ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana) to even know whether or not this sort of thing is possible.

I'm sure other people more familiar than I (and I apologize if anything I said was offensive) with the subject could think of half a dozen other reasons...

Liberty's Edge

@Luthorne: Alter Self can temporarily alter gender. A permanent version of that seems a lot less costly than Polymorph Any Object.

Additionally, it's canonical as of WotR that a gender change costs less than 5k gp or so, since someone sells a +2 Sword and gets the money to do it. Additionally, Wesley Schneider wrote this which, while not technically official, is indicative.

And then there's the fact that a single cursed belt of gender change can be use to gender flip as many people as desire to do so.


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Something that comes up an awful lot in my games is unexpected sex swaps due to reincarnation. Particularly at higher levels, where the party is willing to splash out some cash for the revival of any NPCs who should happen to be killed in our vicinity. 50/50 shot it won't be an issue in theory, but in practice, "Well, the good news is, everyone killed in that last surprise attack is back with us, and the... OTHER good news is that our local high priest has volunteered to talk things out for the dozen or so of our fine citizens who have returned to us as female gnomes."*

I mean, we could splash out some more cash to correct that, but we're already out of pocket 1000 GP a person. We aren't running a charity here.

It comes up in-party now and then too (we are a cheap lot after all), varies from person to person whether we take a chunk out of the budget to do anything about it.

* It's always female gnomes. Not from GM fiat or anything, just how the dice always seem to fall.


@Googleshng

Miracle could fix that too if you are high enough level, and miracle for that should be free since it's a 'normal' use of the spell.

Of course then you are burning through ninth level slots (if you even have them) but just a not.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

@Luthorne: Alter Self can temporarily alter gender. A permanent version of that seems a lot less costly than Polymorph Any Object.

Additionally, it's canonical as of WotR that a gender change costs less than 5k gp or so, since someone sells a +2 Sword and gets the money to do it. Additionally, Wesley Schneider wrote this which, while not technically official, is indicative.

And then there's the fact that a single cursed belt of gender change can be use to gender flip as many people as desire to do so.

But alter self cannot, by default, be made permanent, so there's no saying whether or not it's possible. Hence the researching a new spell bit, which is pretty tricky to do, as I recall...and it's really up to your DM as to whether or not that's possible.

That may be, I haven't read Wrath since I'm playing in it (though I did know there was a transsexual character in it already, so I shall not stab you for spoilers), so I don't know how common or rare this particular transformational mechanism is. That said, your average person is not going to have 5,000 gp, or even over 2,000 gp. Rich merchantmen, nobles, etc., perhaps, as well as many adventurers, but that's not going to help the vast majority of people who have to deal with this situation.

I don't think a cursed belt is very helpful, though, since it may or may not exist somewhere, since cursed items are almost always created by someone messing up in some capacity to create an unpredictable effect, it's unlikely that they're common, even though that particular one could potentially be created when attempting to craft any magical belt. In short, you can't really count on its existence, and I don't believe there are any rules for purposefully creating a specific cursed item (though you might be able to purposefully f~## up the Spellcraft checks, depending on your DM, though that could be any cursed object)...

Regardless, point still is that the vast majority of people, unless they're lucky enough to either have acquired that money to being born in it, making a lot of money, or surviving as an adventurer, are not going to be able to afford a magical sex change, leaving aside the question as to whether or not other factors might make them hesitant to do so.

Liberty's Edge

Oh, I agree that it's difficult. I'm just noting that it's less so than you were implying. Based on both the words of the people at Paizo and published content.

Note that I specifically mentioned in my first post that the vast majority of non-adventurers wouldn't have the resources to do this.

Liberty's Edge Contributor

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Even an adventurer isn't going to have a spare 2,000gp to spend on a one-use elixir for several levels. You can save a little cash by tracking down a 15th level wizard and hoping she'll cast Polymorph Any Object on you, but then you have to worry about finding a 15th-level caster who isn't evil and will give your 2nd-level butt the time of day. Unless you're lucky enough to be the trans child of a 15th-level wizard, you are on your own for transition expenses and will probably be tackling that as an adult.

More importantly, and I cannot repeat this enough, having your genitals changed does not suddenly mean you stop being transgender. And just as importantly not every trans person needs or wants to change their personal parts. Being trans is about how you grow up, about how you relate to the world, about how the world relates to you, about brain chemistry, and a dozen other factors.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

An adventurer? No reason at all (except for the cultural reasons mentioned above, which seem like they'd be rather rare) that they wouldn't rapidly get precisely as much in the way of changes as they desire, since they're likely to get the money together pretty quickly (relatively speaking).

That said...an Elixir that does what you suggest has been more-or-less officially stated to cost over 2000 gp. That's around the price of owning an entire farm or a +1 weapon. It's expensive. So not a whole lot of non-adventurers can afford it. At least not easily. And even among adventurers...that's not 1st level money, it's third or fourth level money at the earliest.

Also, and most importantly...someone who's done what you suggest is still transgender. Since they probably didn't manage it until they were an adult (or at least on the cusp of puberty), which makes them transgender, by almost any definition you choose to use.

Personally, I'd argue them as being transgender whenever they did it, but being adult when they make the choice makes it utterly unambiguous by any definition.

Bah! In MY DAY we were throwing away +1 weapons or giving them to little kids. Nothing less than +4 touched my hands! *thumps cane*


Googleshng wrote:

Something that comes up an awful lot in my games is unexpected sex swaps due to reincarnation. Particularly at higher levels, where the party is willing to splash out some cash for the revival of any NPCs who should happen to be killed in our vicinity. 50/50 shot it won't be an issue in theory, but in practice, "Well, the good news is, everyone killed in that last surprise attack is back with us, and the... OTHER good news is that our local high priest has volunteered to talk things out for the dozen or so of our fine citizens who have returned to us as female gnomes."*

I mean, we could splash out some more cash to correct that, but we're already out of pocket 1000 GP a person. We aren't running a charity here.

It comes up in-party now and then too (we are a cheap lot after all), varies from person to person whether we take a chunk out of the budget to do anything about it.

* It's always female gnomes. Not from GM fiat or anything, just how the dice always seem to fall.

I just read over the description for Reincarnate a half-dozen times just now, and nowhere does it describe the mechanics of when a dice roll causes a character to come back as female. 0_0 ... Are you sure there isn't a bit of DM fiat entering into this?


You know what, my entire life, I always played that reincarnate gives you a random gender and race. But looking at it now, I have no idea how I got that in my head. Must've been a houserule from the old days.


Yeah... that's one of those "I didn't realize I was house ruling that" things for me, too. Once upon a time, I'm almost positive it was an official thing, which is probably what I was thinking when I brewed up an expanded chart the day I got my hands on the Advanced Race Guide, and all my groups have been using that since.

I could swear there's a reference to it being a thing in a Paizo adventure or two too.


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In a word, expensive. The economy of Golarion rests not primarily on adventurers, who are a rarer breed, but on farmers and crafters and everyday laborers who have neither the spare cash nor the ready physical access to magical assistance of that specialized nature.

If you lived in a big enough city, you'd have at least the access to some high level casters and clerics. Whether they would help you without being paid is another story. The story of a trans* person rising from a humble origin and becoming an adventurer specifically because they wanted magical help to align their gender could be quite a compelling one with a lot of great plot hooks. They wouldn't necessarily be immediately or automatically successful.

Crystal's alchemical tinctures, the formulas passed down by the whispering ghosts of shamans of the past and the spirits of the land, are certainly one solution accessible even in an obscure dwarven settlement. Not the same as a polymorph effect, and initially I was a little disappointed not to see Shardra get to have what I would have personally considered a happy ending, eg, a spectacularly perfect transition. The tinctures didn't quite seem like enough, somehow. But if they are enough for Shardra, and they are the medicine of her ancestor spirits, then that is a matter between her and the spirits.

A body swapping spell might also be a solution, albeit a potentially evil one if one party isn't consenting.

Shadow Lodge

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Crystal Frasier wrote:
Even an adventurer isn't going to have a spare 2,000gp to spend on a one-use elixir for several levels.

Bah! If your entire net worth is only 2k gp, then you spring for the potion, and wake up to find another 2k in gold under your pillow.

Thank you, WBL Fairy!

Sovereign Court

Here's a cursed item that might actually fetch a very high price in the Golarion transsexual community: (assuming one can still willingly fail a save... not sure if Pathfinder changed that from 3.5... can someone actually willingly "take a 1" on a save though?)

GIRDLE OF OPPOSITE GENDER
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th
Slot belt; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
When this magical belt is put on, the wearer must immediately make a DC 20 Fortitude saving throw or be transformed into a person of the opposite gender. The character's abilities, mind, and spirit remain unaffected; only the character's sex changes. If the character's saving throw is a natural 1, the item actually removes all gender from the wearer, giving him an androgynous, neutered appearance. The change is permanent unless undone with curse-removing magic. Once its magic takes effect, the belt can be removed without effort. A creature can only be affected by a particular girdle once, though other girdles of this type can cause another transformation.

CREATION
Magic Items any belt


Odraude wrote:
You know what, my entire life, I always played that reincarnate gives you a random gender and race. But looking at it now, I have no idea how I got that in my head. Must've been a houserule from the old days.

Sounds like something from 1st Ed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fergurg wrote:


Now, how do transsexuals make sense in Pathfinder? There is no moral issue in play here, but I would think that a significant logical issue comes in; bodies can be magically modified to accommodate whatever gender you choose (or both or neither, for that matter). Further, it can be altered to be fully whatever gender you wish it to be, not just the outer parts. If you don't want your body changed, you could also theoretically have your mind changed.

So is there a reason why an adventurer would not choose to have physical gender match up with chosen gender?

Not everyone is rich enough to commission the magic needed to do so. Irabeth, our favorite NPC paladin had to sell the magic sword she inherited from her father to buy for her fiancé the potion that would produce the physical change needed.

Magic is NOT Cheap. Not everyone has a Magic Mart shopper's discount either.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Here's a cursed item that might actually fetch a very high price in the Golarion transsexual community: (assuming one can still willingly fail a save... not sure if Pathfinder changed that from 3.5... can someone actually willingly "take a 1" on a save though?)

GIRDLE OF OPPOSITE GENDER
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 10th
Slot belt; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
When this magical belt is put on, the wearer must immediately make a DC 20 Fortitude saving throw or be transformed into a person of the opposite gender. The character's abilities, mind, and spirit remain unaffected; only the character's sex changes. If the character's saving throw is a natural 1, the item actually removes all gender from the wearer, giving him an androgynous, neutered appearance. The change is permanent unless undone with curse-removing magic. Once its magic takes effect, the belt can be removed without effort. A creature can only be affected by a particular girdle once, though other girdles of this type can cause another transformation.

CREATION
Magic Items any belt

Cursed items by their nature, can only be discovered the hard way. You can't intentionally make them. If a transgendered person puts on such a belt, that person will be changed to as diametrically opposite of the gender that person identifies with.... because it's a curse.


Lazar, it says no such thing.


TanithT wrote:
initially I was a little disappointed not to see Shardra get to have what I would have personally considered a happy ending, eg, a spectacularly perfect transition. The tinctures didn't quite seem like enough, somehow.

I agree that that would be one possible happy ending for Shardra (and one that at least one other trans character has experienced). But I guess that, for me at least, I prefer seeing the tincture in the story.

It usually throws me a off a little bit when I read a fantasy or (more usually) sci-fi story where gender transition/treatment is powerful enough or has advanced enough that it produces a spectacularly perfect transition (like in one of the Culture novels I read). While I like a good happy ending, or the idea of a person not having to deal with all of the hassles and hurdles we do in the real world, I also find great value in depictions of transition that map more directly onto contemporary gender transition.

This is one reason why I prefer Shardra's backstory to Anevia's (much as I like Anevia's). It's also why I prefer the Mulibrous Tincture and Anderos Salve to the potion Wes cooked up. Again, that might be just me.

I totally get your preference, though, and think it's a valid one.

TanithT wrote:
But if they are enough for Shardra, and they are the medicine of her ancestor spirits, then that is a matter between her and the spirits.

Agreed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
icehawk333 wrote:
Lazar, it says no such thing.

Cursed items have NO value. Therefore they can't be "made" by plugging them into the standard formulas for creating magic items. Cursed items always identify as a "helpful" magic item, not by their actual effect.


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Oh, yeah, I know you can't buy them. It doesn't mean that someone who has one and wants to use it gets the effect they didn't want.

That's like saying because a scarab of death is cursed, it won't activate if you give it to someone else, because that wouldn't be detrimental to you.

They do what they say they do, and that's it. They aren't sentient, they don't make choices.


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Fergurg wrote:

... The setting has its own rules, its own gods, and its own laws of morality.

So is there a reason why an adventurer would not choose to have physical gender match up with chosen gender?

Sure. An adventurer doesn't choose their gender. They're born with it. Their culture and customs and local mores determine their sexual identity.

spoiler:
Just like in real life.


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KSF wrote:


It usually throws me a off a little bit when I read a fantasy or (more usually) sci-fi story where gender transition/treatment is powerful enough or has advanced enough that it produces a spectacularly perfect transition (like in one of the Culture novels I read). While I like a good happy ending, or the idea of a person not having to deal with all of the hassles and hurdles we do in the real world, I also find great value in depictions of transition that map more directly onto contemporary gender transition.

This is one reason why I prefer Shardra's backstory to Anevia's (much as I like Anevia's). It's also why I prefer the Mulibrous Tincture and Anderos Salve to the potion Wes cooked up. Again, that might be just me.

I totally get your preference, though, and think it's a valid one.

The storyteller part of me agrees with you - the story is better, and a closer analogue to what trans* folks have in real life, the way it's written with the alchemical tinctures. There is definitely a lot of value in that, more so than if it was written otherwise.

The wishful thinking, personal fantasy fulfillment part of me selfishly wants the perfect happy trans* ending, waving a wand and instantly having a magnificent shining example of just the right body. But I agree that this is not nearly as important as telling a good story that deeply resonates for trans* people as well as potentially for everyone.


LazarX wrote:


Cursed items by their nature, can only be discovered the hard way. You can't intentionally make them. If a transgendered person puts on such a belt, that person will be changed to as diametrically opposite of the gender that person identifies with.... because it's a curse.

So....no effect on a trans* person, because they are already there? That would be an interesting ruling.


LazarX wrote:
icehawk333 wrote:
Lazar, it says no such thing.
Cursed items have NO value. Therefore they can't be "made" by plugging them into the standard formulas for creating magic items. Cursed items always identify as a "helpful" magic item, not by their actual effect.

For crying out loud LazarX you know better:

Quote:


Cursed items are any magic items with some sort of potentially negative impact on the user. Occasionally they mix bad with good, forcing characters to make difficult choices. Cursed items are almost never made intentionally. Instead they are the result of rushed work, inexperienced crafters, or a lack of proper components. While many of these items still have functions, they either do not work as intended or come with serious drawbacks. When a magic item creation skill check fails by 5 or more, roll on Table: Common Item Curses to determine the type of curse possessed by the item.

Which of course means sometimes they are made intentionally.


TanithT wrote:
LazarX wrote:


Cursed items by their nature, can only be discovered the hard way. You can't intentionally make them. If a transgendered person puts on such a belt, that person will be changed to as diametrically opposite of the gender that person identifies with.... because it's a curse.
So....no effect on a trans* person, because they are already there? That would be an interesting ruling.

Worse actually. It would undo anything that had already been done: Applied to Shardra for example, it would be as if she hadn't started taking the tincture at puberty.

Of course, being a cursed effect, removing the curse would return you to where you were before.

Or so I'd say if I were going to make that ruling.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Or, for a transgender person, maybe sex and gender are both reversed, so body and mind remain out of step. Worse yet, if deliberately failing a save is considered as "taking 1", note that a natural 1 on this save leaves a person neuter. I suppose the item would have to mess with the mind of an asexual person so transformed.


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TanithT wrote:
KSF wrote:


It usually throws me a off a little bit when I read a fantasy or (more usually) sci-fi story where gender transition/treatment is powerful enough or has advanced enough that it produces a spectacularly perfect transition (like in one of the Culture novels I read). While I like a good happy ending, or the idea of a person not having to deal with all of the hassles and hurdles we do in the real world, I also find great value in depictions of transition that map more directly onto contemporary gender transition.

This is one reason why I prefer Shardra's backstory to Anevia's (much as I like Anevia's). It's also why I prefer the Mulibrous Tincture and Anderos Salve to the potion Wes cooked up. Again, that might be just me.

I totally get your preference, though, and think it's a valid one.

The storyteller part of me agrees with you - the story is better, and a closer analogue to what trans* folks have in real life, the way it's written with the alchemical tinctures. There is definitely a lot of value in that, more so than if it was written otherwise.

The wishful thinking, personal fantasy fulfillment part of me selfishly wants the perfect happy trans* ending, waving a wand and instantly having a magnificent shining example of just the right body. But I agree that this is not nearly as important as telling a good story that deeply resonates for trans* people as well as potentially for everyone.

Both stories are better than either alone.

They show there's more than one path, even in fantasy.

Liberty's Edge Contributor

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Well... I'll be having plenty of nightmares tonight

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Well... I'll be having plenty of nightmares tonight

And we didn't even need Stephen Moffat, the man who's made millions across the world learn to fear...

Satutes,
Closets,
Old Hotel Rooms,
Snowmen,
Santa,
Clowns,
Shadows,

Am I missing anything? :)


This topic comes down to the same limitation as the "why is magic not completely ubiquitous" thread.

Magic is not that easy to access. There are few spellcasters and their services are very expensive, far out of the financial range of most people, especially for a permanent polymorphism.


What I find hard to talk about, regarding the Game Setting, is not Gender, but Gender Roles.

So, sure we can talk about the idea that Characters within this setting can elect to demonstrate (superficially, or as deeply as they desire) the gender they most feel comfortable with, but it doesn't answer the question of why?

On Golarion, what are the Gender Roles?

I know that the OP expressly forbade us from talking about the "Real World,” but some analogy type of discussion must be made here.

So, in our world a person who senses some dysphoria (whether that is Gender Dysphoria or not) is not feeling this way in a vacuum, and it is reasonable to assume that the sense of disconnection from what is felt to what is it that we imagine is perceived, is usually tied to our place within our family, societal, and cultural communities.

On the world of Golarion, what cultural, economic, religious, familial, or societal norms, as constructs, create the Gender Roles (and what are those Gender Roles) that are components of the feelings a character might have that lead them to those feelings of dysphoria?

For example, the new iconic is given a back story that hints at specific gender roles assumed as part of the dwarven community that she was born into, and it is not just her own feelings of self identification that lead to her decisions to identify the way she does.

No, her decision is made in the context of a combination of her own feelings, her own experiences, and her ideas of what it is she is supposed to be doing as expressed by the culture around her. (Can we not argue that in a fantasy setting such as Golarion, in fact, this character would never have had any feelings of dysphoria, and simply grew up doing whatever she wanted to do, and being whatever she wanted to be without ever even acknowledging that a state of dysphoria ever existed, since much of the writing about her experiences mimics “real world” experiences simply for the sake of telling a story that is relatable, in my opinion.)

This, for me raises numerous new conceptual questions about the entire gamut of dysphoric feelings.

What if you are born a goblin female, but growing up you cannot stop feeling that you are more comfortable when you feel that what you really are is a Kobold male?


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Does make for some interesting thinking. Perhaps there are more than a few wealthy or noble families that keep "heirlooms" just in case.

"M'Lord, it's a girl."

"Retrieve 'The Girdle'".


Threeshades wrote:

This topic comes down to the same limitation as the "why is magic not completely ubiquitous" thread.

Magic is not that easy to access. There are few spellcasters and their services are very expensive, far out of the financial range of most people, especially for a permanent polymorphism.

Add to this the fact that the caster may not quite understand the customer's need. Some casters probably require detailed and lengthy explanations, unwilling to simply trade services for coin. Mundane characters (no levels in adventurer classes) might be a bit intimidated by the prospect of stuffing magic inside themselves. They may not even realize it's an option. Add to that, some attitudes surrounding casters and it's no wonder that the go-to method is expensive alchemy over long periods of time.


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Belazoar wrote:

Does make for some interesting thinking. Perhaps there are more than a few wealthy or noble families that keep "heirlooms" just in case.

"M'Lord, it's a girl."

"Retrieve 'The Girdle'".

That has potential for introducing even more gender dysmorphia along with trauma. Imagine finding out as an adult that you weren't actually trans*, but that your original physical gender did match your gender identity, until your parents used a cursed item to change your gender as a baby, because they wanted a male heir?


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Terquem wrote:
Can we not argue that in a fantasy setting such as Golarion, in fact, this character would never have had any feelings of dysphoria, and simply grew up doing whatever she wanted to do, and being whatever she wanted to be without ever even acknowledging that a state of dysphoria ever existed, since much of the writing about her experiences mimics “real world” experiences simply for the sake of telling a story that is relatable, in my opinion.

You could, but dysmorphia involves more than gender roles. Someone can prefer the other gender's role without actually identifying with that gender. Dysmorphia involves a clash between the person's gender identity and their body, not just the role. Many people, including on the recent threads here, report vast improvements in their mental state after going on hormones, even if they've already been living as their real gender. It's physical, not just societal.

OTOH, we have no experience of a society without gender roles to act as a control, so we can't say for sure how trans* issues would play out in such an environment. You could extrapolate from trans* people who were raised with stricter or looser gender roles, both at home and in the larger culture, but I don't know if that's actually been studied.


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LazarX wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
Well... I'll be having plenty of nightmares tonight

And we didn't even need Stephen Moffat, the man who's made millions across the world learn to fear...

Satutes,
Closets,
Old Hotel Rooms,
Snowmen,
Santa,
Clowns,
Shadows,

Am I missing anything? :)

"Are you my mummy?"

-I nominate 'The Empty Child' as the the most traumatising episode ever...


thejeff wrote:
Belazoar wrote:

Does make for some interesting thinking. Perhaps there are more than a few wealthy or noble families that keep "heirlooms" just in case.

"M'Lord, it's a girl."

"Retrieve 'The Girdle'".

That has potential for introducing even more gender dysmorphia along with trauma. Imagine finding out as an adult that you weren't actually trans*, but that your original physical gender did match your gender identity, until your parents used a cursed item to change your gender as a baby, because they wanted a male heir?

If it was done as a newborn its doubtful they would know. And in societies where gender mattered, you know this kind of thing would occur.

Trauma? Yeah, putting on a girdle of opposite gender and nothing happening would be quite a shock.

Edit: Actually, I'd be suprised if this sort of magic wasn't used a LOT in societies such as,say, dark elves.


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Belazoar wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Belazoar wrote:

Does make for some interesting thinking. Perhaps there are more than a few wealthy or noble families that keep "heirlooms" just in case.

"M'Lord, it's a girl."

"Retrieve 'The Girdle'".

That has potential for introducing even more gender dysmorphia along with trauma. Imagine finding out as an adult that you weren't actually trans*, but that your original physical gender did match your gender identity, until your parents used a cursed item to change your gender as a baby, because they wanted a male heir?

If it was done as a newborn its doubtful they would know. And in societies where gender mattered, you know this kind of thing would occur.

Trauma? Yeah, putting on a girdle of opposite gender and nothing happening would be quite a shock.

They would know because they would grow up with dysmorphia. That's the trauma, that and finding out it was done to them deliberately.

They wouldn't know that it had been done to them of course, until or unless they found out. But a Remove Curse would have a chance of removing the effect, even if no one knew about it.


TanithT wrote:

The storyteller part of me agrees with you - the story is better, and a closer analogue to what trans* folks have in real life, the way it's written with the alchemical tinctures. There is definitely a lot of value in that, more so than if it was written otherwise.

The wishful thinking, personal fantasy fulfillment part of me selfishly wants the perfect happy trans* ending, waving a wand and instantly having a magnificent shining example of just the right body. But I agree that this is not nearly as important as telling a good story that deeply resonates for trans* people as well as potentially for everyone.

I'm right there with you on the wishful thinking, personal fantasy fulfillment side of things. (I have that part too :)

Liberty's Edge Contributor

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thejeff wrote:
They would know because they would grow up with dysmorphia.

Just pointing out that it is gender dysphoria, not dysmorphia. Dysmorphia is a more general disorder where a person believes their body is somehow defective and abnormal. It's been stated many times by all the major medical governing bodies in the western world that being trans is not an expression of body dysmorphia disorder.

Dysphoria is a symptom/side-effect of other problems, and refers to depression and anxiety.

Gender dysphoria is an entirely third category that shares a little bit in common with general dysphoria.


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Terquem wrote:
Can we not argue that in a fantasy setting such as Golarion, in fact, this character would never have had any feelings of dysphoria, and simply grew up doing whatever she wanted to do, and being whatever she wanted to be without ever even acknowledging that a state of dysphoria ever existed, since much of the writing about her experiences mimics “real world” experiences simply for the sake of telling a story that is relatable, in my opinion.

You're correct when you say that the day-to-day experience of being a trans person is partly influenced by the social environment around us, insofar as how people react to us, what roles or gender expressions we are or are not allowed to take on, and so on.

However, there is a deep physical component to being transgender that has nothing to do with our social environment, one that is not alleviated by being treated by others as our proper gender.

Shardra would experience that as well, regardless of what role she assumed in dwarven society, and regardless of how much more open that society is to gender variance.

Edit to add: As someone who is treated as my proper gender by the most of the people I interact with regularly day to day, but is only partway through my gender transition, I can verify from experience that this is the case.

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