For a campaign in the future I hope to play a two-shield martial type of character. I think I've gotten most of the details ironed out. There are a couple things I could use some help with, but if there are other things I've overlooked, please let me know.
Here goes:
Race: Human(?)
Alignment: True Neutral
Racial Traits: Bonus Feat, Heart of the Fields, +2 to One Ability Score
Character Traits: Magical Knack (Ranger), Reactionary
Class: Infiltrator Witchguard Ranger 10/Invulnerable Urban Barbarian 10
Favored Class Bonus: Barbarian (1 Skill Point)
Progression: Ranger for the first 10 levels, Barbarian for the remaining 10.
20 Point Buy
Strength: 10 (0 points)
Dexterity: 20 [18 + 2] (17 points)
Constitution: 13 (3 points)
Intelligence: 9 (-1 points)
Wisdom: 14 (5 points)
Charisma: 7 (-4 points)
Feats
(* = Bonus Feat)
1*: Weapon Finesse
1: Improved Shield Bash
2*: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Piranha Strike
3*: Bodyguard
5: Quick Draw
6*: Shield Master
7: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7*: In Harm's Way
9: Double Slice
10*: Bashing Finish
11: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13: Improved Critical (Quickdraw Throwing Spiked Light Darkwood Shield)
15: Combat Reflexes
17: Improved Initiative
19: ???
Skills: Ranger = 6 - 1 = 5 X 10 = 50. Barbarian = 4 - 1 + 1 = 4 X 10 = 40.
Total, 90 ranks, 4.5 average per level.
Survival MAX
Perception MAX
Acrobatics MAX
Knowledge (Nature) MAX
Climb 5 ranks
Swim 5 ranks
Basic Concepts:
1. I am attempting to make this character purely Dexterity-based (on the offensive end, at least). He'll get Dexterity to Attack rolls to start (and soon enough down the road, to Damage rolls as well), and he won't have too heavy of equipment, so a 10 Strength should be enough to hold his stuff without issue. If I could manage it, I might be able to dump it down and bring my Intelligence back up so I can have some more skills available to max out, and bring more to the party than just "Hey, I hit things."
2. His main weapons will be two Light Spiked Quickdraw Throwing Darkwood Shields, (Boy, that's a mouthful...) meaning no Armor Check Penalty would be incurred. Because of this, he will be able to effectively cast spells by 5th level, and with any luck, can work his way around the threat of reach with his shields being throwable. Anything at a major range, he can resort to a bow, but won't if he can avoid it.
3. I chose Human primarily for the Bonus feat and for the ability to shrug off the Fatigued condition by the mid game. If the chances of enemies being geared specifically to shut down raging are very slim, I could probably do without the Heart of the Fields trait, and stick to having the extra Skill Point.
4. He'll have some very strong defenses in conjunction, especially with AC, CMD, and Reflex Saves. Once he gets access to his Adaptations at 3rd level, he can take on some Iron Will and Great Fortitude as temporary bonuses during combats. He's also party friendly, having access to Bodyguard at this level, and other caster-friendly goodies just down the road. This increases further when he hits 11th level, getting access to Barbarian Rage and the ability to make 7 attacks with decent to-hit and damage on each one, without suffering TWF penalties.
Issues/Concerns:
1. I could change my race to get better overall racials and starting statistics, but losing the extra Bonus Feat really hurts my feat progression, and throwing that out of its current level makes the build hardly optimal in the lower levels.
2. I'm not sure what other feats I need to get with the ones I've listed, as you can tell I have no feat to select at 19th level. Some guidance would be appreciated on that.
3. The Heart of the Fields trait won't really see much use until 11th level or so, and even that's a gamble. I'm not sure how often you'll run into situations where you will be instantly cut off from your Rage or if I need to worry about back-to-back combats like that, so I'm not sure if I really need it or if I should stick to the extra skill point.
4. I have no clue if I'm maxing out the right skills. Acrobatics and Perception are obvious ones, since a lot of creatures use Stealth and have high CMD. Having a strong Dexterity modifier really helps me stay in the running in that regard, and I have a positive Wisdom, so those aren't issues. Knowledge (Nature) fits a Ranger perfectly, as well as Survival. I side-dipped Climb and Swim since I won't have any Strength modifiers to add to it, but I know those aren't it. Is that a good skill set to work with or do I need to arrange it around? Should I invest more into skills at the cost of carrying capacity?
5. Misc. Suggestions you think might actually make the build better.
Thanks for any input. (Even if it's just to mock me trying something new because it's not Strength-based...)
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Well, be careful at low levels, because in case you missed it, shields always apply ACP to attack rolls when using Weapon Finesse. After 2nd level this won't be an issue ever though.
For the rest:
1:I say stick with human, but drop Dex a little[you don't need the Twenty starting out, and it won't help you much anyway. Not until you can manage an Agile shield at least[you probably want to get one though]. I'd go with 19Dex, 14Con, and either 11Int or 8Charisma[or 15Wis if you prefer], and bump it with levels.
2:I'd probably drop Improved Initiative, because its generally better for other allies to go first, so that all buffs and crowd controls that your party casters have can happen before you get in the thick of things. Instead of that[and to fill your open slot], Iron Will, Bolstered Resilience, and Extra Rage Power are all good contenders.
3:Well, if you aren't a superstitious barbarian and/or aren't taking Spell Sunder, Strength Surge, or Bolstered Resilience, then this is of virtually no use to you. I mean, you aren't getting phantom HP, you aren't taking an AC penalty, and you don't need to adjust tactics. If you have one of these things, it becomes much better.
4:Looks fairly good. If you take the above advice about Int, I say take Stealth as a skill, but other then that, all of them seem good.
5:Looks good. What Rage Powers and Favored Enemies are you considering?
However, this just means that you are only able to derive AC from 1 shield. Treating the other shield as a weapon and not gaining any AC from it is still completely fine.
Well, be careful at low levels, because in case you missed it, shields always apply ACP to attack rolls when using Weapon Finesse. After 2nd level this won't be an issue ever though.
For the rest:
1:I say stick with human, but drop Dex a little[you don't need the Twenty starting out, and it won't help you much anyway. Not until you can manage an Agile shield at least[you probably want to get one though]. I'd go with 19Dex, 14Con, and either 11Int or 8Charisma[or 15Wis if you prefer], and bump it with levels.
2:I'd probably drop Improved Initiative, because its generally better for other allies to go first, so that all buffs and crowd controls that your party casters have can happen before you get in the thick of things. Instead of that[and to fill your open slot], Iron Will, Bolstered Resilience, and Extra Rage Power are all good contenders.
3:Well, if you aren't a superstitious barbarian and/or aren't taking Spell Sunder, Strength Surge, or Bolstered Resilience, then this is of virtually no use to you. I mean, you aren't getting phantom HP, you aren't taking an AC penalty, and you don't need to adjust tactics. If you have one of these things, it becomes much better.
4:Looks fairly good. If you take the above advice about Int, I say take Stealth as a skill, but other then that, all of them seem good.
5:Looks good. What Rage Powers and Favored Enemies are you considering?
1. To a point I agree. Sometimes a +1 modifier isn't worth spending the points for, but at the same time what do I gain from the other stuff? Strength wouldn't apply to attack and damage rolls in the later levels (about level 6-ish I should have +1 Bashing Agile shields, costing 6K each to enhance). My constitution is already pretty decent at a 13, my Wisdom is good for extra utility spells, and I don't use Charisma. Skill Points are where it becomes a problem, and to be honest I think I would rather trade out Heart of the Fields for the Skill Points, since it won't get much use, freeing up the Intelligence issue entirely.
2. I get it late for a reason; I could've really tried to fit it in there sooner if it was that important, but as you said, it's not. However, by that level it's a game of Rocket Tag, and having that Initiative up (with the Reactionary trait as well) with my insane Dexterity modifier helps secure my ability to go first with my Rocket Tag party members to clean up the fodder. In the mid levels, having a +10 base to Initiative is more than enough to stay contended. I'd take Iron Will, but for instances where it matters, I have my Adaptations for that. Bolstered Resilience would work if I decided to keep Heart of the Fields, but its actual use wouldn't take effect until the end game, when I can actually snatch DR. With Extra Rage Power, I'm not sure what other Rage Powers I could use. I'd get 5 Rage Powers total, 3 of which are spent on the Beast Totem for the Pounce "Capstone," (plus natural armor helps out,) and there are the ones that allow me to increase my AC versus Melee/Ranged Attacks as a Move Action for a certain amount of rounds, granting me a very powerful "Defense Mode." What else could I possibly use that isn't really level-restricted?
3. Yeah, and the other thing is that I won't get to really be able to use it until 11th level at best, so it becomes an issue of "Is it worth it to stall skill points just for the minor usage I could potentially get out of it by the end game?" Chances are, probably not, since the instant and longevital mileage I'd get from the Skill Points heavily outweighs the potential but limited usage of a 1/Day ability.
4. I would've probably put points in that if I could spare it, but since I might be able to dump Strength some instead of Intelligence (wearing Light/Medium armor and using not-so-heavy weapons and all), I might be able to get out of it.
5. For Rage Powers, I'd take the full Beast Totem line for Natural Armor and the Pounce "capstone," as well as Guarded Defense and the other one, where I get to add Dodge AC to melee and ranged attacks made against me for a certain amount of rounds, activated as a Move Action; I might have been able to go with the Superstitious line, but since I can't take much mileage with the Human FCB, put too much investment into it, or have a reliable means to actively make use of it, it's not much of an option. Not to mention, it doesn't fit with the Witchguard archetype flavor of the character.
For Favored Enemies, it's tough to balance it out both mechanically and thematically. I find that my character is somebody who opposes the abominations of nature's way (that is, things that are a scourge upon the order of life and death). Because of this, he finds that there are several threats; the first of which are Dragons. These mythical creatures, while supernaturally powerful, are also that which exists for countless generations, beings who are essentially immortal. Because of this, they are his primary source of combatants. (Could call him an honorary Dragon Slayer?) Second would be that which does not experience age: Constructs. Such subjects are artificial, something created which goes against the cycle of life and death. It makes such things irrelevant. While my character has practically found ways to do so, he managed it in a manner that nature has approved of, whereas these creatures were created through methods that quite frankly disgrace the essence of nature. As such, it must be destroyed. Lastly, that which trudges from the dust of their resting place is the most plentiful, but also the most common, but also easiest, subjects to deal with, as most simply need to be put back to rest again.
So in short, Dragons are primary at +3, given they have the most hit points and AC to hit against. Constructs would be next at +2, and Undead, which are generally fairly squishy are at +1. (I will probably start with Undead as my first Favored Enemy though, then work my way up.)
Also, shield is an actual item slot on the body... and thus you are limited to just one magical one, if your intention is to have any sort of magic on these shields (be it a simple +1, or bashing, or returning, or agile, et al)
This part doesn't make sense, since "slots" are generally a subject exclusive to Wondrous Items. Shields don't fall under that category, so that can't be right. Although I understand the underlying point: Shield Bonuses don't stack, and that's fine. The reason I'm using Shields is because I don't suffer TWF penalties via Shield Master, and so I can maintain a stronger defense without really losing out on offense.
@ Kazaan: I understand this. But its relevance is moot; the problem is not with ASF or with ACP. The problem stemmed from hand availability to cast spells while still being able to make melee attacks with both shields, and the answer is simple: Quickdraw Light Shields while having the Quick Draw feat. I also tack on the Throwing attachments for ranged viability and use Darkwood for a cheap 0 ACP.
Quick bump with a revised version.
Race: Human(?)
Alignment: True Neutral
Racial Traits: Bonus Feat, Skill Point, +2 to One Ability Score
Character Traits: Magical Knack (Ranger), Reactionary
Class: Infiltrator Witchguard Ranger 10/Invulnerable Urban Barbarian 10
Favored Class Bonus: Barbarian (1 Skill Point)
Progression: Ranger for the first 10 levels, Barbarian for the remaining 10.
20 Point Buy
Strength: 9 (-1 points)
Dexterity: 20 [18 + 2] (17 points)
Constitution: 13 (3 points)
Intelligence: 10 (0 points)
Wisdom: 14 (5 points)
Charisma: 7 (-4 points)
Feats
(* = Bonus Feat)
1*: Weapon Finesse
1: Improved Shield Bash
2*: Two-Weapon Fighting
3: Piranha Strike
3*: Bodyguard
5: Quick Draw
6*: Shield Master
7: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7*: In Harm's Way
9: Double Slice
10*: Bashing Finish
11: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13: Improved Critical (Quickdraw Throwing Spiked Light Darkwood Shield)
15: Combat Reflexes
17: Hammer the Gap
19: Extra Rage Power (Reckless Abandon)
Skills: Ranger = 6 + 1 = 7 X 10 = 70. Barbarian = 4 + 2 = 6 X 10 = 60.
Total, 130 ranks, 6.5 average per level.
Survival MAX
Perception MAX
Acrobatics MAX
Knowledge (Nature) MAX
Stealth MAX
Sense Motive?/Disable Device? MAX
Climb 5 ranks
Swim 5 ranks
Additional Notes:
1. I decided to adjust the Strength and Intelligence statistics around so as to give me more skill points to work with. Being able to carry only 30 pounds hurts me in the early game, but when I can get Darkwood shields and Darkleaf Cloth leather armor, the weight becomes a non-issue. Also, starting equipment leads to me having 2 Spiked Wooden Shields and a Haramaki. (I would've taken Leather Armor if I could afford the weight. Sadly, I could not.) Of course, this leads me to having some spending money for any intriguing odds and ends. Any idea as to what I should get for ~146 gold, or should I keep it to invest in stuff for later?
2. Heart of the Fields doesn't exactly have much use to me, and for good reason; ragecycling is only notable if you have 1/rage powers that you need more of in a given combat. Since Beast Totem tree, Guarded Stance, or Rolling Dodge lacks such reliance, there was no point to having it except in the offchance that I get affected by Calm Emotions. That being said, skill points are more useful to my character than the rare ability to negate being Fatigued from Rage outside my control once a combat, so that adjustment was made.
3. I found my lategame feat: Hammer the Gap. I can't believe I overlooked it before...having 8 attacks in a round by that point, I could snatch up to +28 damage in a given full attack, and when I hit endgame, Pounce makes it all the more relevant. It also helps cover the damage loss incurred from my off-hand via Piranha Strike. I decided to get the Extra Rage Power feat instead of Improved Initiative, since I'd have over a +10 Initiative in Dexterity alone by the time I get the feat, making me already relevant thanks to the Reactionary trait. I chose Reckless Abandon for iterative accuracy, since my AC would be plenty high enough anyway.
4. Getting an extra 40 skill points to work with equates to having 2 extra skills I can max out by the endgame. So I decided to go with Stealth for Spec Ops missions (and I can get a Skill Focus to that via Adaptations), and either Disable Device for traps and such so we can proceed without problems, or Sense Motive, depending on party composition. I decided to still keep the dip into Climb and Swim, but I'm not sure if I should reduce the points I have in them and dip into other skills for aiding or misc. purposes, or if I need to have that minor investment. Thoughts on that?
Magic Items on the Body
Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It's possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as 15 magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body, known as a “slot.”A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.
Armor: suits of armor.
Belts: belts and girdles.
Body: robes and vestments.
Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.
Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.
Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.
Hands: gauntlets and gloves.
Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.
Headband: headbands and phylacteries.
Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs.
Ring (up to two): rings.
Shield: shields.
Shoulders: capes and cloaks.
Wrist: bracelets and bracers.
Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect.
Some items can be worn or carried without taking up a slot on a character's body. The description of an item indicates when an item has this property.
You should still be able to enchant the shield spike on one of your shields as a weapon and use that, but you can only gain the benefits of one magical shield as a shield.
I personally don't like shields being on that list, but that is the RAW.
What's the level 7 bonus feat from?
Witchguard Ranger archetype. And yes, it stacks with the Infiltrator Archetype.
Here's the full archetype description. It specifically denotes getting In Harm's Way as a Bonus Feat at 7th level in place of Woodland Stride. Probably my most favorite Ranger archetype ever, since I can put Witch Patron spells (specifically, the Time patron) on my spell list. In other words, I can cast Haste by 10th level for everybody!
@ Melkiador: That seems silly to be quite honest. Although I understand the general paradigm that a character usually only uses one shield, there are several concepts and characters who have used two shields at some point to overcome trials, and having a second shield would realistically have a much larger impact than what the book is leading on.
It also makes no sense to me when the book treats the shield and the spikes on it as a single item. It even specifically calls out that Spiked Shields (not Shield Spikes) can be enhanced as weapons in its own right, so enhancing "just the spikes" is a no go. If it was Armor Spikes, you'd have a case, but not in the case of Spiked Shields.
I find that the point of putting shields on there is to discourage people from trying to double-dip AC benefits, and that's fine, but in this case it's also highly misleading to intent that's already spelled out in the Shield sections of the book.
It also raises the question of if I could even wield two shields at once, which makes no sense since a shield generally only takes up one hand to use. So I can carry 2 shields, one in each hand, and not get benefits for it, but I can't wield two shields, one in each hand, to get the benefits of either, which, are spelled out as not stacking?
It's a very touchy subject at best, and at worst it completely invalidates this build, which is hardly gamebreaking compared to the rest of the offensive or defensive content.
The additional shield, as a magic worn item, has no effect. So if you have two shields, one with +2 Bashing and the other with +3 Arrow Catching, you can only count one of those effects. So if you declare the +2 Bashing shield as your primary, that shield gets +2 to its AC bonus and, if you make a shield bash (sacrificing your AC bonus normally), you count the Bashing property and you don't count the AC bonus nor the +3 or Arrow Catching from the other, but that doesn't mean you can't still use it as a weapon. It just doesn't give its normal benefit as a shield. Furthermore, if you enchant it as a weapon, that would still apply to attacks the same as having an enchanted weapon in each hand.
Obviously they won't stack because game balance and multiplicatively explained RAW, though this part here about it actually being a slot throws a monkey wrench into it (as if Shields don't already have enough monkey wrenches..). You only count one as the shield bonus, though you can still use them, they just won't stack. You can always bash with them, even if they are a shield, and they count as a bludgeoning weapon (or piercing if it's Spiked). Which is fine and is how it should be ran, but saying you can't use another shield period? It's about as allowable as using a Bastard Sword without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat apparently, which makes no sense since the RAW already breaks the cheese of "Oh hey, I have a +4 Shield Bonus now from two Heavy Shields! Hurr De Durr," so why include that clause as well, when it also doesn't follow the normal rules of slot items, which are commonly Wondrous Items.
That inconsistent and already-covered base invalidates this build for no good reason. Look at Shield Master here:
You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.
So let me get this straight, I can only ever apply Shield Master to a single "Shield" at a time, because the other is treated as strictly a weapon? Similarly, if I am using both Shields as a Weapon and both Weapons are, in fact considered Shields, I wouldn't be able to apply the penalty reduction and attack/damage substitution to both?
Now let's look at Bashing Finish:
Whenever you score a critical hit with a melee weapon, you can make a shield bash attack against the same target using the same bonus as a free action.
So if a Melee Weapon is, in fact, a Shield, and my other weapon is, in fact, a Shield, because I can only ever have one Shield "slot," I could only ever make shield bash attacks with the weapon I decided to make my "Shield," when both are technically, in fact, a Shield? I'm glad I tried to be the cool guy with some optimization, but I guess because I'm not a 9th level spellcaster, it's not okay...
I hate to say it, but it just seems like a massive inconsistency, given that there is already a load of book text stating how shields don't stack with themselves and how similar bonuses (shield bonuses and their enhancements are similar bonuses) don't stack with themselves, etc. There comes a time where the RAW is absolutely stupid and ignorant with other, more sensible rules texts, and this is one of those times.
@darksol: that's a cool archetype! Does it only work with witches or any spell caster? Would another Ranger count as a spell caster?
Here's the flavor text:
Witchguards are the sworn defenders of the witches of the north. Although the witches are spellcasters of immense power, even they cannot defend themselves against every attack. Witchguards dedicate their lives to protecting their charges, and they gain some arcane knowledge in return. They are trained to work closely with witches and defend their charges from harm. Witchguards learn magical abilities from the same patrons that grant witches their powers, though they can use their abilities to protect any kind of spellcaster, not just a witch. A witchguard is ready to face any foe that might threaten his charge, and he is ever prepared to lay down his life to protect the life of the person he is sworn to defend.
So it specifically states it can be any kind of spellcaster that it works on, as evidenced by the lack of specification for their Hunter's Bond exchange ability (which is absolutely awesome):
At 4th level, a witchguard forms a bond with a spellcaster he has sworn to defend. Once per day, this bond allows the witchguard to spend a move action to grant an adjacent spellcaster a +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +2 circumstance bonus on concentration checks.
So it can be any spellcaster, Arcane or Divine (though the flavor obviously suggests Arcane, description says any spellcaster will do). So yes, another Ranger (assuming they are high enough level to cast spells) would work. I could even argue those who have Spell-Like Abilities might count, but that's a stretch to say the least...
They get access to all of the Witch patron spells up to the 4th spell level in addition to the Defend Charge exchange for the Hunter's Bond, which is really powerful in my opinion, given you can choose any patron. The one I chose is the Time Patron (hence my character's title of "The Timeless"), since Haste is my best friend, and Silence has great shutdown utility. Ventriolquism I can do without, but several of the "good ones" have those crappy spells.
Some other great ones (if you decide to go pure Ranger) are Agility, Ancestors, Devotion, Peace (maybe, but I doubt it), Spirits, Strength, Transformation, and Wisdom. It's definitely one of the better archetypes out there, and I fully recommend it if you are going to build more of a tankey type Ranger.
@Darksol: I'm not entirely sure where you stand based on your post, but it seems that, though you disagree with most of it, you've got the big picture mostly nailed down. So lets illustrate exactly how this works for the sake of clarity.
So Ironjohn Shieldpants has himself a Heavy shield and a Light shield. The Heavy shield is +2 Arrow Catching and the Light shield is +3 Bashing. Now lets say, round 1, he declares his Heavy shield as filling his Shield Slot so it is what counts as his Magic Shield. So long as he doesn't attempt a shield bash with his Heavy Shield, he gets +4 Shield bonus to AC (+2 from shield, +2 from enhancement) and the benefit of the Arrow Catching effect. So he could defend with the Heavy Shield and make attacks with the Light shield just fine (though he would not get the benefit of the Light Shield's Bashing effect since it isn't the active magic item). If he decided he needed extra attacks, he could drop the defense and attack with the Heavy Shield as well using TWF rules. He no longer benefits from the +4 shield bonus to AC, though nothing states you'd lose the Arrow Catching benefit since the Shield Bash section only states you lose your AC bonus; not the additional magic effects. Now lets say, for whatever reason, he decides he wants to attack with just the Heavy Shield but it's still designated as his Shield Slot. He'll lose the +4 AC from the Heavy Shield, but he can get +1 AC from the Light Shield since it's still a shield. However, the +3 and Bashing on the Light shield doesn't function because it isn't designated as your active magic shield; you can defend with it as if it were an unenchanted shield and get the base +1, but not the full +4 you'd get if you switched your magic shield slot to use the Light Shield.
Now, certain feats and class abilities can provide exceptions to base rules elements such as allowing you to retain shield function even when using them to attack. Improved Shield Bash is one example. It lets you retain your Shield bonus to AC...
As far as I'm concerned, shields shouldn't even be considered a slot, since there is already rules they keep any abuse in place, since slots are something that are specifically tailored to Wondrous Items, not weapons, shields, or armor.
The problem we're running into is that Shields can be both an armor-type item and a weapon-type item, and generally when you use it in one manner, the other is superseded because if used as a weapon, you don't get the AC increase, and if you use it as an AC increase, you can't use it as a weapon (otherwise the AC increase is lost). ISB removes that barrier, since I can still bash with a given shield and then retain its AC, making it work as both simultaneously.
This "designation" stuff also makes no sense because even without this excess RAW, stacking issues come into play, meaning similar bonuses derived from shields cannot apply. It also defeats the purpose of being able to enhance a shield as a weapon, because even those effects would go down the drain because it is still considered a shield through and through, making even weapon bonuses obsolete, something that I highly doubt is RAI.
Maybe I'm just frustrated that I never saw this rule before and hate that it invalidates the build on such a minor yet overwhelming level, even though the restricting bases were already covered with other rules, and don't know how to process or overcome it. It just doesn't make sense as to why there is such a practically unprecedented restriction here when any possible overpowering/unintended munchkinism is put in-check by other existing rules.
Magic item slots aren't just for Wondrous Items; there is a designated slot for magic Armor. Weapons are a different subject altogether, but both Magic Shields and Magic Armor do, indeed, have their own magic item slots. However, should a Shield be enhanced as a weapon, even though you "merge" the enchantment levels so far as pricing and max enchantment, nothing states that those offensive enhancements are reliant on the shield magic item slot because you're using the shield in its capacity as a weapon rather than in its capacity as a shield. It'd be no different than wearing gauntlets over gloves; you can enchant the gauntlets as weapons but still get the magic effect of the gloves underneath and it doesn't suppress the offensive magic quality of the gauntlets. But you can't pair a wonderous item gauntlet with gloves and get both effects.
Well, at least I can say for sure that those goobers who are trying to screw over Full Plate wearers who get Gauntlets that come with the armor are wrong.
That being said, that's about the intent I'm going for. I can really only use one of the shields for an actual Shield benefit, the other is essentially a weapon that I use to TWF. So if I read it right, I would be able to have full Shield Master benefits to each shield (which I use as Weapons), and all the special properties that I would be putting on each (Agile, Furious, Courageous, Bashing, etc.)
Looks like it was all the build relied on this entire time and people were confusing me. Funny that...
Correct; except for one small thing. Bashing isn't a weapon enhancement, it's a shield enhancement. So it would only function if it's on your primary defensive shield. The others you listed are, indeed, weapon enhancements so they would function on either shield.
Which is quite a weird statement, given the nature of the property.
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
One could argue that because it acts as a weapon when you bash that it doesn't count as a shield item, meaning I could still have the Bashing property work on both weapons. After all, this specific property would trump the general text regarding slots...
Simultaneously, I think the rule is a bunch of gibberish since the mechanics that it supposedly leaves unchecked is actually already balanced by other existing rules, and that nobody made Two-Shield Martials before because they didn't want to deal with all this conflicting crap.
Looks like this build is scrapped after all. A shame, really.
Well, remember, it's probably written from the perspective of having a shield + non-shield. If you've got a +3 Bashing Arrow Catching light shield and a Longsword, you can still make a shield bash with the shield and retain the Bashing and Arrow Catching properties; you only lose the +4 net shield bonus to AC. You have no other shield to consider in this case since your other weapon is a Longsword. So you'd bash with the shield and treat it as a 1d6 weapon with +1 to attack and damage. Now, if you had Shield Master, the Bashing property would be quite redundant since you'd be using the +3 shield enhancement anyway which beats out the +1 effective weapon enhancement that Bashing gives. It would make for a good weapon before you get Shield Master, but once you have that feat, it'd be better to get a different enchant that gives you better function. And then, on your "off-hand" shield, the one used only as a weapon, just stack it up with weapon enchants like Furious, Courageous, Bane, etc and enhance it as a weapon only. Also, the Bashing property, though retained if on the primary magic shield, only effects the shield it is placed on; it isn't written to give general benefit. So it wouldn't translate to your off-hand shield as well.
But, generally speaking, people find it better to just get a Heavy Shield and two-hand it if you want to go with a Shield only build. A +3 Bashing Adamantine Spiked Heavy Shield would cost you about 19k and, even before you get Shield Master, you can attack with it as a +1 2d6 weapon that defeats DR/Adamantine and DR/Magic. Once you get SM, you treat it as a +3 2d6 weapon that defeats Adamant, Cold Iron, Silver, and Magic DR; AND you retain the shield bonus. If you use it in conjunction with a Cestus, then you have the option to either TWF with Shield + Cestus or two-hand the Shield if you need some extra "umph" in your attacks. Brawler (the fighter archetype) would probably be best for that since both Cestus and Shields are Close weapons so both would mesh well with...
The two sizes larger benefit from Bashing is what the big deal is by the late game, since I'd be dealing 1D8 with both shields, instead of piddly 1D4 damage.
Though...in hindsight, maybe I won't even need Bashing, since to be honest, most of my damage comes from static bonuses and modifiers. I only get an average of a 2 damage increase (4.5 from 2.5) from the Bashing property, and I could probably get more of a benefit out of a +1 enhancement than that. It also lets me get Agile and the other properties on my shields much faster, so I become more relevant in the early game. I suppose I was once again fretting over nothing important, and it just made my character concept that much more viable...funny that.
And in those cases, it's a lot simpler because it just follows the typical two-hander formula, and maybe more effective. That's not what I was going for here, I was wanting a Two-Weapon build (shield-related, purely actually for Shield Master benefits to apply to their maximum) that is competent in melee and has some fairly outrageous defenses. And now I have it. Time to roll it off to the press.