I'm interested in building a grappler, but I'm not very familiar with grappling in Pathfinder. I know that grappling is usually a technique used by those with size and strength, but is it possible to build an effective Dex-based grappler?? What class(es) are best?? What feats(skills)are necessary?? What feats are required?? What equipment, magical or mundane, is needed?? This is for a homebrew campaign -- no point buy (just roll the dice and and see what you get), no 3rd party material, but all Pathinder stuff is allowed. If the character works well, it could go to 15th or 16th level, so I have a lot of room to grow. Thanks in advance for any suggestions with a build.
If you want to be a lockdown specialist, not significantly worried about damage, a Dex grappler can be awesome. Good initiative and AC means you'll get in first and shut down one major threat (ie. twisting a caster into a pretzel) while your party cleans house. But you'll probably need help finishing him off because your damage will be sub-par. One advantage Grapple has over, say, Trip, is that there's no size limitation on Grapple. So long as you can overcome the penalty for the size difference with your check, a fine creature could even grapple a colossal. I'd also suggest pairing it up with Dirty Trick because it's probably the most useful lockdown maneuver evar. Agile Maneuvers will let you use Agility for all maneuver checks. So a Tetori Monk who specializes in Grapple and uses Trip and Dirty Trick as backup maneuvers, along with Agile Maneuvers so they all use Dex in place of Str would be a support monster, getting mad AC from Dex, Wis, and CE, good saves all around, and several debilitating conditions at his disposal. All you'd have trouble with is finishing them off. If you have a proper party dynamic going and people doing their jobs, then finishing them off shouldn't be your job anyway so that's fine and dandy.
If you're grappling, you take a -4 to Dexterity. The only way I know to be a Dex-based grappler is either a Tetori monk with grab (where you use the -20) or a white-haired witch, which can grapple without getting the grappled condition.
If you're grappling, you take a -4 to Dexterity. The only way I know to be a Dex-based grappler is either a Tetori monk with grab (where you use the -20) or a white-haired witch, which can grapple without getting the grappled condition.
At 4th level, tetori does not take the penalty to Dex when grappled. An interesting dex grapple build would be a tetori 4/druid x with shaping focus. Wild Shape into an fire elemental, and use agile maneuvers to lock down stuff and force it to take burn damage.
In another thread, we came up with an idea for a Tetori Monk of the Healing Hand as a "Combat Chiropractor". Too bad there's not a Fury's Fall equivalent for grappling, otherwise you could make an awesome Koetsuji Akisame. Probably go for Binding Throw with Fury's Fall instead and don't totally tank your Str; maybe start it at 14? Try this:
For rolled stats
Dex>Str>Con=Int=Wis>Cha, +2 into Wis
Traits: Clever Wordplay[Diplomacy] -or- Bruising Intellect
Reactionary -or- Omen
Level Progression:
Spoiler:
1) Tetori of the Healing Hand 1: BAB +0, Improved Grapple (Monk), Toughness (Human), Agile Maneuvers (lvl 1)
2) Monk 2: BAB +1, Stunning Pin (Monk)
3) Monk 3: BAB +2, Combat Expertise (lvl 3)
4) Monk 4: BAB +3, +1 Dex
5) Monk 5: BAB +3, Improved Trip/Improved Dirty Trick (lvl 5)
6) Monk 6: BAB +4, Greater Grapple (Monk)
7) Monk 7: BAB +5, Ki Throw (lvl 7)/Weapon Focus(Grapple)
8) Monk 8: BAB +6, +1 Con
9) Monk 9: BAB +6, Binding Throw/Rapid Grappler (lvl 9)
10) Monk 10: BAB +7, Pinning Knockout (Monk)
11) Monk 11: BAB +8, Enhanced Ki Throw/Greater Dirty Trick (lvl 11)
12) Monk 12: BAB +9, +1 Wis
Tactics:
Spoiler:
Before you hit lvl 4, you'll take a Dex hit while grappling so, while grappling, your +1 Str modifier will give better benefit than your effective +0 Dex modifier. It also makes your unarmed strikes deal a touch more damage at early levels. Throw on a Cestus so you still have both hands free for grappling and later, trade it out for a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes. That also frees up your amulet slot for Natural Armor. So you'll most likely start off with either a move+grapple. Once they are grappled, just keep twisting until they say uncle. At lvl 4, you won't suffer the Dex penalty while grappling so feel free to pin the patient before you start working on them. At lvl 6, Greater Grapple lets you use your Move to grapple and frees up your standard for something else; either taking swings at adjacent targets or just making another grapple check in case the first one fails or you just want to damage the patient again.
At lvl 5, you can pick one of two paths to pursue; Trip or Dirty Trick. Trip leads into Ki Throw and Binding Throw + Enhanced Ki Throw lets you trip, deal damage, and grapple as a swift. This can be done on a Charge if need be. The prone condition will make it that much easier to grapple them. Dirty Trick, on the other hand, is much more versatile as there's no size limitation as with Trip and you can impart blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened. However, it can't replace just any melee attack; it must be performed as its own standard action so you can't couple it with a charge and you can't do it as an AoO either. If you pursue the Dirty Trick path, pick up Rapid Grappler at lvl 9 as this will give you a swift grapple in any circumstances (not reliant on using Ki Throw). So with Binding Throw + Enhanced Ki Throw, you can move in, trip as a standard, and follow up with grapple as swift, then two grapples per round (either standard + move and use swift for something else, or ki throw again for damage and use move + swift for grapples). With Dirty Trick + Rapid Grapple, you can move in, dirty trick as standard, then rapid grapple as swift, then two to three grapples per round depending on whether or not you want to pile on the dirty tricks. And, of course, in all applicable cases, be sure you deal nonlethal damage and if you do end up causing them to start dying, be sure to stabilize them. Then charge them for services rendered.
The -4 you take when you get the Grappled condition is offset by the fact that your opponent also gets a -4 to his Dex, too.
There is the Agile Maneuvers Feat, which is not like Fury's Fall. It is more like Weapon Finesse for Combat Maneuvers.
There are lots of ways to gain Grappling Bonuses. You shouldn't miss Fury's Fall too much, especially since there are no size restrictions on Grappling like there are on Tripping.
Armbands of the Brawler: +1
Improved and Greater Grapple, Brawler Armor, King Crab Familiar, Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver, Dan Bong, and Coordinated Maneuvers: +2 each
The Grab Ability: +4, which you could get through Wild Shape, levels in Tetori, or via the Alchemal Discovery Tentacle.
There is the Level Cavalier Order of the Penitent Ability Expert Captor, which allows you to Tie Up opponents you have Grappled, not necessarily Pinned, and you don't take the -10, either.
Don't bother with the Dan Bong; its borken. It gives +2 to grapple checks, but since you don't have both hands free, you suffer -4 to your grapple check. That's a net -2 to the check.
If you want to be a DEX-Based control grappler, you could go Brutal Pugilist Urban Barbarian (Controlled Rage bonus to DEX). At L2, you only take a -2 DEX penalty when grappling and at L5 you take no penalty. As a Barbarian, you'll have a wider range of weapons available to you and go the Spell Sunder route to smash enemy enchants that might prevent you grappling them.
Let me introduce you to my Human Flowing Monk / Lore Warden Build. The build isn't fully DEX based, but has good balance between STR and DEX, to maintain good damage potential with good defenses.
S17 D17 C14 I13 W12 Ch7 (alternate Human feat to get +2 to both STR and DEX: I ususally don't like this option, but it works very well here!)
At 7th level the Pseudo Monk can use Binding Throw and Ki Throw to trip an opponent and place him in any square that he threatens, granting an AOO to his threatening allies, and taking two attacks on himself on the poor victim (Greater trip and Vicious Stomp) - and THEN initiate a grapple as a swift action.
@9th level with +2 STR/DEX belt (for 20/20 in STR/DEX), Gloves of Dueling, +1 Ring, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists and a +2 Brawling Mithral Chain Shirt:
AC: 10+6(+2 Brawling Armor)+5DEX+1Ring = 23 AC (kinda meh)
Attack at 9th:
+8BAB+5STR+3WT+2Magic+2Brawling+1WF = +21/+16 for 1d6+12 (5STR+2Magic+3WT+2Brawling)
Grapple or trip CMB/CMD@9th:
+4LW+4Greater = +29/+24
Certainly not as great of a pure grappler as a Tetori - but much more flexible!
Thanks for the great ideas. I plan on a lock down specialist, leaning towards the tetori monk. I'm going to use a halfling. That's not an optimal choice but for flavor several players in my group are terrified of halfings. Going to have to plan this one out carefully to see how I can maximize its effectiveness. Also considering how to incorporate dirty trick or trip as a backup.
In another thread, we came up with an idea for a Tetori Monk of the Healing Hand as a "Combat Chiropractor". Too bad there's not a Fury's Fall equivalent for grappling, otherwise you could make an awesome Koetsuji Akisame. Probably go for Binding Throw with Fury's Fall instead and don't totally tank your Str; maybe start it at 14? Try this:
Don't bother with the Dan Bong; its borken. It gives +2 to grapple checks, but since you don't have both hands free, you suffer -4 to your grapple check. That's a net -2 to the check.
That's an interesting point, but surely the +2 bonus took the -4 for not having a hand free into account. The writers were pretty stupid if they didn't.
But I can totally see a PFS DM denying a player his +2 on those grounds.
But they only cost 1 silver piece, so it might be worth a try anyway. You don't lose much (You lose 1 sp.) if you don't reliably get the +2.
In another thread, we came up with an idea for a Tetori Monk of the Healing Hand as a "Combat Chiropractor". Too bad there's not a Fury's Fall equivalent for grappling, otherwise you could make an awesome Koetsuji Akisame. Probably go for Binding Throw with Fury's Fall instead and don't totally tank your Str; maybe start it at 14? Try this:
While I want to be positive and give the OP the advice he was really asking for, I have to admit, I'm not sanguine about Dex-based grapple builds in general, and if your interpretation of Kazaan's offering is "Don't do a Dex based grapple build: keep your St. high." That seems like a legit piece of advice. It's usually better to help an OP figure out how to do what he or she wants rather than say "Don't do it," or--worse still--"It can't be done." but there isn't 0 place for that.
What's interesting is that you retain the ability to make AoOs while grappling with Tetori's graceful grappler. Using abilities that offer you Grab (white haired witch) or a Grab-like ability (hamatula grasp) you can effectively control space around you. Not sure how the build would work exactly, but sounds interesting to say the least.
Thanks for the great ideas. I plan on a lock down specialist, leaning towards the tetori monk. I'm going to use a halfling. That's not an optimal choice but for flavor several players in my group are terrified of halfings. Going to have to plan this one out carefully to see how I can maximize its effectiveness. Also considering how to incorporate dirty trick or trip as a backup.
I think Tetori is the way to go if you are strongly emphasizing grappling, but if you are combining grappling with other things, like Dirty Tricks, I don't favor Tetori.
I have a build that I think combines grappling with other things quite effectively.
I like Monk Master of Many Styles because I LOVE Snake Fang. Snake Fang is not just Attack of Opportunity trigger: it's an AoO hair trigger. You get your AoO whenever someone attacks and misses! I take 3 levels in Monk and the Monastic Legacy Feat, because that will let your unarmed strikes continue to grow with other classes, and I multiclass a lot!
I love the Cavalier Order of the Penitent Ability Expert Captor, which allows you to Tie Up a grappled, not Pinned Opponent, and you don't take a -10 to do it. Once you have Greater Grapple, when you start your round adjacent to your opponent, you can grapple him as a standard action then tie him up as a move action. As a Tetori, I would start with 1 level in Cavalier to get the HP, then take 6 levels in Tetori to get Greater Grapple, then take the 2nd level in Cavalier to get Expert Captor, then take 3 more levels in Tetori to get Inescapable Grasp.
The King Crab Familiar gives you +2 on your grapple attempts. A Tentacle gives you +4. So 4 levels in Alchemist will give you +7 on your grapple Mod. That's faster growth than anything.
Then take Weapon Focus and Feral Combat Training tentacle, so you can make those Attacks of Opportunity with it instead of your fists. Take Improved Natural Attack and do even more damage. The Tentacle's Grab Ability will give you a free-action grapple with every hit. If you are wearing armor with Spikes--why not?--you get armor spike damage with every hit. You want to develop Dirty Tricks. Take the Vivisectionist Alchemal Archetype and do Sneak Attack damage, 2d6 with 4 levels in Alchemist. Get Quick, Great, dirty trick, and make your opponents Blind. Now you get precision damage with every tentacle hit, then you can grapple your Blinded opponents and you also get precision damage with your armor spikes!
Once you have levels in Alchemist, have a look at True Strike. The Potion Glutton Feat will let you drink an Alchemal Extract (any potable) as a Swift Action. So you could use a Wand of True Strike on yourself then close on your opponent in 1 round. If you survive the round adjacent to your opponent, you can initiate the grapple with the extra +20, throw back an extract of True Strike as a Swift Action, then Tie Up your opponent as a Move Action. A level 12 grappler can reasonably pump up his Grapple Mod to +30 at least, so if your opponent's GMD is 50 or less--a Balor Demon's is 54--your chances of having him gift-wrapped for Christmas is about 90%.
As a Tetori, I would start taking those levels in Alchemist after taking 9 levels in Tetori.
Lining up a fully-developed Grapple, AoO, Dirty Trick, Sneak Attack build will take at least 15 levels, but for a homespun campaign, you'll have time.
And I have to admit, OP, your vision of a Halfling Wrestler submissioning and hogtying an ancient, black dragon in 1 round is a vision I have share with you. It is a really intoxicating vision, and I hope I helped make that happen.
What's interesting is that you retain the ability to make AoOs while grappling with Tetori's graceful grappler. Using abilities that offer you Grab (white haired witch) or a Grab-like ability (hamatula grasp) you can effectively control space around you. Not sure how the build would work exactly, but sounds interesting to say the least.
