Why not multiclass?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I've honestly thought about taking a level in the NPC class Expert at times just to get access to some of the skills my character is interested in that his PC class does support or provides such low skill points per level that there are none to spare to advance in these skills.


Scythia wrote:

My preferred game is White Wolf (old) World of Darkness, where your character's powers, abilities, skills, and growth were up to you in many ways, and that's a nice way to be.

I don't know that I would go full GURPS though, as I like to have some set guidelines. I can certainly see why it would appeal to some though.

The set guidelines in GURPS are typically provided by optional templates. That does mean more work for the GM creating their own campaign, but it also makes it a lot easier for players to get an idea of what sort of characters the GM is prepared to deal with.


Scythia wrote:
What kind of addition to a path could possibly require 1-2 levels in four different classes, but couldn't be done in a single class without a little effort (from DM and player) ? If a player just wants some shiny trick that another class offers, why not figure out a way they can just get that, or something similar?

So lets say I want to play a character who's basically a fighter, he's is mostly all about hitting stuff with one type of weapon, but I want him to have some ok survival/stealth skills, also he has special experience fighting giants.

My question is why is it preferable that fighter get reworked as opposed to taking my first level in ranger and then rest in fighter?

Don't they both model the same thing, and isn't one doable without changing anything?

Personally the biggest conceptual problem I have with multicasting is the seam between not having those skills and then gaining them but in cases where it's no more egregious than not having a feat and then having it or not having a class ability and then having it I don't see what makes having only one class more palatable.

- Torger


Scythia wrote:
Perhaps it is partly because I started with Ad&d, but I see a class as having a more central role in a character's life than taking a couple throw away levels in an extra class or multiple extra classes would suggest.

I started in 2E also, and 3E's sort-of free multiclassing was a breath of fresh air. I think that especially with martials, multiclassing is just a way to fight better, or rather fight in a particular style better. With casters, not so much though.

Scythia wrote:
What kind of addition to a path could possibly require 1-2 levels in four different classes, but couldn't be done in a single class without a little effort (from DM and player)?

Why should you both go through that work when the designers already did it for you, by making a system with free multiclassing?

Scarab Sages

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Scythia wrote:


In the vein of storytelling, imagine if midway through the movie "Empire Strikes Back" Luke had told Yoda that he wanted to suspend his Jedi training in order to learn to wear armor and use a blaster better, but he'd get back to it in awhile.

You mean like how he told the Rebel Alliance, you know, I am a pilot and the leader of a Fighter Squadron, but I'm going to go AWOL and learn how to be a Jedi instead of meeting up with the fleet rendez-vous point like I was ordered to, but I'll totally be back in awhile...


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Imbicatus wrote:
Scythia wrote:


In the vein of storytelling, imagine if midway through the movie "Empire Strikes Back" Luke had told Yoda that he wanted to suspend his Jedi training in order to learn to wear armor and use a blaster better, but he'd get back to it in awhile.
You mean like how he told the Rebel Alliance, you know, I am a pilot and the leader of a Fighter Squadron, but I'm going to go AWOL and learn how to be a Jedi instead of meeting up with the fleet rendez-vous point like I was ordered to, but I'll totally be back in awhile...

Hmm... So then the 'jail-break' spree was totally IC for Luke. :o

Apologies to Lucas

Still down on the kissy-kissy stuff though. Gah! :p


Man, just once I want to find a gm willing to do gestalt. I got way too many character concepts I like thematically that involve multiclassing.

Grand Lodge

there will always be purists that don't understand.... but multiclassing is a way for an old Salt like me to find new interesting ways of playing characters that i have not done before.

from my experience there are good reasons not to multiclass if your a caster. as when you get higher level low level spells are largely ineffective.

that being said if your character diversifies it is no-longer a caster. and therefore it is something else and while you dont have the higher level spells often the combination is far superior to a single class.

examples

Paladin + Oracle = Awesome Healer or Uber tank

(Half Orc) Barbarian(Maddog) + Hunter + Alchemist + Mammoth rider = gargantuan animal companion of Doom.

Mystic theurge.

Arcane trickster

the list goes on...

Scarab Sages

Quark Blast wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Scythia wrote:


In the vein of storytelling, imagine if midway through the movie "Empire Strikes Back" Luke had told Yoda that he wanted to suspend his Jedi training in order to learn to wear armor and use a blaster better, but he'd get back to it in awhile.
You mean like how he told the Rebel Alliance, you know, I am a pilot and the leader of a Fighter Squadron, but I'm going to go AWOL and learn how to be a Jedi instead of meeting up with the fleet rendez-vous point like I was ordered to, but I'll totally be back in awhile...

Hmm... So then the 'jail-break' spree was totally IC for Luke. :o

Apologies to Lucas

Yeah. Not to mention his theft of that X-Wing. If a pilot takes a F16 on a joyride to a jungle island to learn martial arts from a hermit, he'll be lucky to spend the rest of his life in prison, if he isn't shot down on returning or executed for treason.

Sovereign Court

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Some multiclassing work on some conceptual levels mostly. Alchemist/monk alternating between classes every levels is incredibly rewarding and fun to play, also mutagen does benefit you greatly. Fluffing your alchemy as acupuncture is pretty awesome.


Imbicatus wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Scythia wrote:


In the vein of storytelling, imagine if midway through the movie "Empire Strikes Back" Luke had told Yoda that he wanted to suspend his Jedi training in order to learn to wear armor and use a blaster better, but he'd get back to it in awhile.
You mean like how he told the Rebel Alliance, you know, I am a pilot and the leader of a Fighter Squadron, but I'm going to go AWOL and learn how to be a Jedi instead of meeting up with the fleet rendez-vous point like I was ordered to, but I'll totally be back in awhile...

Hmm... So then the 'jail-break' spree was totally IC for Luke. :o

Apologies to Lucas

Yeah. Not to mention his theft of that X-Wing. If a pilot takes a F16 on a joyride to a jungle island to learn martial arts from a hermit, he'll be lucky to spend the rest of his life in prison, if he isn't shot down on returning or executed for treason.

I believe the X-wing counted as his.

In the army, you don't own anything of your gear: it is still the Armies.

Scarab Sages

Starbuck_II wrote:


In the army, you don't own anything of your gear: it is still the Armies.

Exactly. He wasn't issued the Xwing until the Battle of Yavin. I don't know how much the sticker price is on a starfighter, but I'm guessing it's pretty high, and the Alliance wouldn't take kindly to taking it without leave. He could have explained if it was a few days by taking extra jumps to throw off pursuers after Hoth, but how many weeks/months was he spending training?


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I think most of the multi-class hate comes from the fact that mechanically, for the most part, single-class are better.

Me? I view classes as more chasis of a character's training, rather than an actual job descriptor. So, I actually don't mind multiclassing. Just depends on the campaign and if it makes sense for the character. I personally HATE this idea that classes are job descriptors or titles.

"Hey bob, what do you do?" "I'm a fighter!" as opposed to, "Hey bob, what do you do?" "I'm a true warrior."... Or, "I'm a barbarian!" as opposed to, "I am the fang and claw of my tribe, I bring death to my foes and honor to my clan".... Which would you rather say or hear in character?

Once had a rogue, who had initially planned on becoming leader of the guild he was exiled from in his back story, set up as your run of the mill thief. Halfling, Childlike, Pass for Human halfling shenanigans. Over the course of the campaign, he wound up making a connection with the party monk, who had a similar experience (framed, exile or death), who instead decided to take it in stride and continue his life, while still adhering to his zen Buddhist styled ways. At the end of the campaign (before it imploded due to GM burn out), I had a Rogue 6/Monk 4, that had started out initially at CN, ended at LN, and abandoned his quest for revenge.


Artemis Moonstar wrote:
...Once had a rogue, who had initially planned on becoming leader of the guild he was exiled from in his back story, set up as your run of the mill thief... At the end of the campaign... I had a Rogue 6/Monk 4, that had started out initially at CN, ended at LN, and abandoned his quest for revenge.

Sounds fun and I'm not knocking it but I will point out one thing.

Rogue 6/Monk 4 = CL 10

Somewhere around CL = 8 to 14 is where multiclassing starts to seriously under power your PC. Exactly where depends on PC classes and what's going on in the campaign.

So, getting back to the OP, that's why not to multiclass. The game crunch generally favors single class, especially for casters.

While it can make sense for RP purposes, and it certainly can be fun, often it's done in ways that are:
1) Counter to IC/in-game logic, and
2) It ups the Game Mechanic necessity of bean-counting.

Both of which pull players out of the fluff mode and into the crunch mode. As long as all the group are on the same page and having fun - great!

Personally, I would rather find any other way than multiclassing to get the RP experience that I like.


The main reasons not to multiclass are pretty obvious.

If you're a caster, don't multiclass and lose caster levels.

If you're a specialized martial dependent on a scaling class feature like Barbarians, Monks, any sort of combat maneuver build etc. Multiclassing weakens you in general unless it's done as a dip into just the right class at the right time.

Some people find multiclassing to be an issue because you suddenly acquire skills. And to be frank that's a fair issue to have but the reason it's even an issue is because people are overpacing their campaigns. Not in terms of player time because obviously we don't all want to sit around and role play 6 months of downtime in depth. But the fact is at least at my gaming table we have pretty much no downtime built in. We've leveled 3 or 4 times and we've known each other for about a week and a half. It's up to your DM to manage this properly so that progression feels natural and while it's easier to look at a character go from almost an apprentice to an Archmage in the span of maybe 6 months in game time and just think oh well he was always just casting spells, that's not any more realistic than a Rogue who randomly picks up spellcasting one day.

Sovereign Court

Since I mainly play PFS, I'm never going to see a capstone ability. This encourages me to multiclass.

An Urban Barbarian 2 Fighter 8+ combination is one of my favorites. The Urban Barbarian has good skills which really add to any fighter.

I had a Rogue with the Swashbuckler and Scout archetypes. At fourth level I decided that the character was somehow lacking. She will now be doing eight levels of Dawnflower Dervish (fighter archetype). The resulting character will correspond to the original vision I had of her.

My most successful PFS character was a Fighter 8 Aldori Swordlord PrC 2 Duelist 2.


Ausimo wrote:

So it seems that many people think that you should/have to go with a single class to be at par. For many casters this may be true but for any build concept that is not a caster I say why not multiclass. I frequently do one to two level dips in many classes to make a solid build of any type and believe that multiclassing is the way to go.

What brought this up with my most recent build concept. It is a trip build that will have monk/fighter/magus/barbarian/alchemist by the end of the build. This may seem like a lot of classes to many with low synergy and missing out on all of the strong later game abilities for each class but I think putting a couple level of each together can come up with a stronger build than any solo class.

I am wondering what your thoughts are on this subject and why?

Low levels will have HP and bab issues (always loose favored class bonus), mid level strip becomes useless and don't have the great toys straight classes do (best ki powers, fighter crit feats, high spells, high rage powers, best discoveries/mutagens/extracts).

While trip is worth while any straight class fighter with the right favored class mod, strength surge fighter or true strike magus will beating you at trip, at HPs and not trading their present or future to do so!


Ausimo wrote:

So it seems that many people think that you should/have to go with a single class to be at par. .......

I am wondering what your thoughts are on this subject and why?

This is not the thought. The idea is that to be optimal or close the best you generally should not multiclass. It is very possible to multiclass and still maintain usefulness.


Quark Blast wrote:
The Crusader wrote:
*snip*... Dipping isn't about straying from your path. It's about adding to your path.
But then you've just made a far better argument for eliminating classes entirely and going to a skill based system, than you have for answering Scythia's "class-dipping" point.

Shhh guys, your salient points are finding holes in the system!

Quote:
Personally, I would rather find any other way than multiclassing to get the RP experience that I like.

Anything? Either I'm a very reserved individual, your hate for multiclassing is worthy of therapy, or you're exaggerating.

I prefer option two. Far more amusing.


Multi class could work depends on how you take it. If want to multi class, stick with full BAB martial would be your best bet. As you will still get the full BAB for power attack. 2 level dips in Paladin is awesome if you have enough CHA to improve your saves. One level dip in class such as ranger and gunslinger boost your saves so much as you get + 2 in 2 saves. Cavalier can be useful for single level dip depends on what you are after. Fighter dip usually 1 or 3 to get weapon proficiency and bonus feats and armor training. hardly anyone goes 2 because bravery sucks, but if you are human, 4 is okay as well (well done if you can see where it is going). Personally, I would make 3 levels of paladin that got good str and cha, to dip 4 level of fighter with 2 levels of Mysterious Stranger gunslinger for better will saves. If your reflex is hurting, have some ranger levels, or you can take a level of stalwart defender for the AC and +1 fort and will.

What multi class generally offer is a big boost of Saves because most class gives + 2 saves at level 1. 1 level of monk or 2 level of paladin is always good if you find your saves suck.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quark Blast wrote:
Personally, I would rather find any other way than multiclassing to get the RP experience that I like.

Use a different rules system. Really, it is that simple.

GURPS, Hero (a.k.a. Champions), or any number of other systems have gotten rid of the class and level system. Instead you buy the abilities you want for each character.

With this it becomes a group decision of who fills what rolls. It is common for everyone in the group to pick up some sort of first-aid / paramedic skill -- so that they can do the simple (mundane) healing. Hit points are then a matter of how you built the character, not how well you can wield a weapon.

With a class system, you are always going to have sudden jumps in ability. You are going to have some sort of enforced stereotyping, where the rules makes something harder for you just because of the class.

Pathfinder has done a good job of allowing customization, but it is still a class and level based system.


BretI wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:
Personally, I would rather find any other way than multiclassing to get the RP experience that I like.

Use a different rules system. Really, it is that simple.

GURPS, Hero (a.k.a. Champions), or *snip* with a class system, you are always going to have sudden jumps in ability. You are going to have some sort of enforced stereotyping, where the rules makes something harder for you just because of the class *snip*

It is simple, I agree. What is not simple is finding enough people to make a go of another RP system.

Jumps in ability can be ok 'cause you can always work in downtime that includes focused training for the PC to apply recent lessons learned.

What you call the "enforced stereotyping" is the part that rubs me the wrong way. Hard to RP around stuff like that. I expect most people don't like it either, hence the proliferation of Multiclassing and Prestige classes and, not least, Feats. Oh, there are so many Feats...

In fact that one might as well be playing a Skills-based system because it's far easier to track your PCs build.


My builds frequently include dipping unless it's a spellcaster. Multiclassing sacrifices too much for a spellcaster.

JoeJ wrote:

As suggested in another thread, a half-goblin, half-gnome multiclassed Alchemist (Fire Bomber)/Gunslinger (Experimental Gunsmith) is just too fantastic an idea to resist.

How does one create a half-goblin, half-gnome?


DrDew wrote:

My builds frequently include dipping unless it's a spellcaster. Multiclassing sacrifices too much for a spellcaster.

JoeJ wrote:

As suggested in another thread, a half-goblin, half-gnome multiclassed Alchemist (Fire Bomber)/Gunslinger (Experimental Gunsmith) is just too fantastic an idea to resist.

How does one create a half-goblin, half-gnome?

Use the Race Builder in the ARG. (Bribing the GM with pizza helps.)


Personally I see multiclassing as just ways to min/max, has nothing to do with RP or character development. You should be able to build whatever you like with Class, Skills, and Feats.


Arnwolf wrote:
Personally I see multiclassing as just ways to min/max, has nothing to do with RP or character development. You should be able to build whatever you like with Class, Skills, and Feats.

You know, I was going to do a rather long post pertaining to this... But I just gotta ask....

What?

Seriously. Before I even begin to attempt a reply, I'd like a bit more explanation here. I can't even conceptualize how "Multi-classing has nothing to do with RP or character development"....


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Artemis Moonstar wrote:
Arnwolf wrote:
Personally I see multiclassing as just ways to min/max, has nothing to do with RP or character development. You should be able to build whatever you like with Class, Skills, and Feats.

You know, I was going to do a rather long post pertaining to this... But I just gotta ask....

What?

Seriously. Before I even begin to attempt a reply, I'd like a bit more explanation here. I can't even conceptualize how "Multi-classing has nothing to do with RP or character development"....

I'm going to have to agree with this one, yes my current character could maybe have been done using a single classed character frankly he might have been stronger(mechanically) if I'd done it that way but multiclassing is almost always the most effective way to fulfill a weird RP idea that you have if the game doesn't have a hybrid class that does it for you.

For example until the Magus was released the only way to make a magic swordsman was by taking two classes and then bumping into a prestige class to do it. Even now ideas like a bloodthirsty viking cleric of a war god might be played by mixing Barbarian with Cleric. Powergaming particularly in Pathfinder is usually not benefited by multiclassing and you straight up can't do what you like with feats and skills in a single class a lot of the time. Particularly because for some classes you just don't have skills or feats to spare. I have to just agree with "What?" because that just doesn't make sense.


Gnomersy, you just condensed about half of what I would have spent a good hour or more expounding on, into two paragraphs. +1


Sort of an older-post now, and I only skimmed through half of it, but my group tends to prefer the single-class idea, but advancing with Archetypes. With enough diligence you can find a race suited for a particular class and archetypes.

When it comes to fleshing them out, you've got an entire slurry of feats to choose from. In my experience people tend to pile on the "Damage Feats" the most, which lands a serious problem for them later on. Yeah, it's awesome to land 89 damage hit-after-hit (Just a random number) but what happens when your class no longer functions properly?

Take the Rogue for example. If the DM really wants to be a prick, you'll be up against undead and constructs. Good luck with that precision damage. Or the Barbarian. Ability Drain = Sluggish Barbarian.

Classes are designed around a simple basic function. A smart DM will use this to his/her advantage. When your basic foundation crumbles, you're left with a heaping pile of filler.

When you consider Racial + General Feats, such as bumping your AC to allow for different TYPES of AC (Retaining more in a greater diversity), boosting Saves, and finishing with a few different styles of attacking, you'll build a base archetype class just as powerful as any multiclass. Only now, you gain it's full rewards, and not just a mere glimpse of what it can do.

In example, I recently built a Monk who can have some 45 AC without wearing any armor at all. True, it costs some Ki, but that's why I took the Extra Ki feat early on and chose a race with a Wisdom Modifier, and that's why I pooled Ability Points into Wisdom.

How'd I land some 45 AC without wearing any armor?

Monk: x4 Archetypes:
Master of Many Styles
Monk of the Iron Mountain
Monk of the Seven Winds
Qinggong Monk

Race: Briarborn

Granted, the Race is a 3rd Party but our DM allowed it since it's published. I took +2 Flaws & +2 Traits, giving me an extra edge with the vast majority of the Feats being Racial. But onto the AC. The AC itself is a constant-growing thing, taking into account the various Monk AC aspects.

At 20th Level I'd gain a +3 Dex & +4 Wisdom.

The Monk gains a natural "Class AC" of +5.
With both Dexterity and Wisdom, that is a total of +7.
My Briarborn get's a +2 Racial AC.
Add this on top of the Base 10 AC, and you're already at +24.

So, where's the rest?

+4 Dodge from the 3rd Party Feat; Unarmored Specialist.
Ki Power: Barkskin = +5 Enchantment.
Vow of Silence = +2 Insight.
+1 Natural Armor from Iron Mountain.
Iron Limb Defense = +4 Shield.

So far we are at +40. Now I know you may be thinking, "But CAHaugen! You can't stack +2 Racial Natural Armor with the +1 Natural Armor from Iron Mountain!" and while yes you are correct, my DM declared it's okay since these are "two types" of Natural Armor. The +2 is RACIAL and the +1 is a CLASS ABILITY. He declared that since they are coming from both the Race and the Class, they should stack. Either way, it's only +/-1, so it's not that big of a deal.

This is furthered by another +5 AC when using Dance of a Hundred Cuts from Seven Winds, for a total of +45.

Spice things up with the possible DR 8/- from Iron Mountain in addition to the Briarborn's Gift of the Darkwood for DR 3/Adamantine, and now you're packing on some serious resistance. I know it's not "8+3", rather it's eight in general and three applied toward Adamantine.

Pepper with a little Oaken Fortification and you add some Resistance 25% against Sneak Attack & Critical.

Now you're packing up to +45 AC for a few Ki, got some hefty DR, and Resistance and all without wearing a single thing.

I've still got Feats, +2 Traits, and Class Abilities to flesh out combat.

As long as you take the time to explore options and work the mechanics, there really isn't any reason to multiclass other than for flavor purposes.


Minor nitpick, but undead are vulnerable to sneak attacks in pathfinder.


Lemmy wrote:

Classes and class levels are nothing more than mechanical constructs.

Sometimes, the best way to represent the character concept one has in mind involves multiclassing. Sometimes, it doesn't.

As a general rule, Pathfinder rewards specialization, so keep in a single class is often the better deal, but multiclassing is still very useful for certain builds.

For example, the best unarmed warrior I've seen was a Monk 1/ Fighter (Brawler archetype) 3/ Ranger 6. :P

Idk, the Monk/Sacred Fist combo actually looks pretty nice. Not the most damage in teh world, but hainvg Wis to AC twice (two seperate abilities, one is Ex one is Su, AND both are untyped... so they pretty much stack)Full Flurry progression, unarmed damage progression, AND having blessings and spells to buff your further seems nice... a 2 level dip into MoMS then into Sacred Fist seems solid.

Scarab Sages

Scythia wrote:

From a story perspective, the idea that someone will suddenly switch their investment of learning and time is jarring. Especially since it's an actual matter of life and death for them, I see adventurers as the sort of people who would find competence very important, and it's difficult to become competent by dabbling.

"I've practiced with the sword every day since I was 16, always hoping my skill would grow to make me the best in the land. Now, I'm learning to cast spells from a book."

To answer this from the perspective of a melee character I am building, Swashbuckler/Lore Warden/Slayer, I still practice with sword every day of my life. I have just managed to pick up a few extra techniques and tricks along the way.

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