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But I NEVER EVER heal during combat.
"What never?" "No, Never"
What Never? Well hardly ever!
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Yes, never, never,never, no really never.....But I NEVER EVER heal during combat."What never?" "No, Never"
What Never? Well hardly ever!
"CAPTAIN: Though related to a peer,
I can hand, reef, and steer,And ship a selvagee;
I am never known to quail
At the furry of a gale,
And I'm never, never sick at sea!
CREW: What, never?
CAPT: No, never!
CREW: What, never?
CAPT: Hardly ever!
CREW: He's hardly ever sick at sea!
Then give three cheers, and one cheer more,
For the hardy Captain of the Pinafore!"
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@Mark, 40d6? I can see 20. I would kill to figure out how to manage 4x channel power in a round. No really, my Urgathoa cleric really would kill.
Of course characters are better at doing what they're built for than they are at what they're not built for. This does not mean that it is suboptimal to build for healing, it means it's suboptimal to do a thing you are not built to do.And yet your post assumed that if the cleric attacked, he would probably miss anyway, which you used as an argument for why the cleric should be healing instead.Actually, all I was doing was relating how different my experience is compared to what gets discussed around here. That's why I said things like "in my game", "when I play" and "in my experience". I specifically stated that the dice particularly hate me. I don't see how any of these statements would lead you to believe that I'm talking about anything other than myself and the situations I have personally faced in game.
My only mention of optimization was to agree with your statement of the obvious that an optimized blank will be better at blank than character that is not optimized for blank.
I think what we are seeing is that we keep taking each others comments and they sound pretty extreme so we replay with somewhat polarized situations or viewpoints as though neither side has acknowledged the validity and points of the other, even if we actually take the time to do so within a post. I felt that my last post was treated exactly this way.
Chance to hit is no guarantee. If you hit damage dealt is no guarantee.
Chance to heal is automatic if you can get in range or already are.
Heal amount is variable, just like an attack roll.
Healing amounts get claimed as being low.
My understanding is that the average HD of a monster and weapon dice is 1d8. Monsters add Str and sometimes half damage. Healing spells add caster level which begins low and increases to equate an enemies strength bonus (+5 for cure light).
At low level a cure spell may or may not out heal the damage of any given monsters single attack. But a cure moderate can with a level of reliability. 2d8+5 is about as much as a magic greatsword swing from a fairly strong fighter. As levels increase and static numbers climb and extra dice are added a cure spell begins healing for more than people are giving them credit for. But monsters don't all do averages or have single attacks. Similarly healers can heal multiple targets or roll well or monsters can miss, buying you time to heal so that the excellent DPR character doesn't get dropped.
But all of the reverses can be true. We are all saying the same thing but from different seats in the same room. Yes, there are battle clerics who have heals as good as the next fellows. Because they are built to deal damage, they are usually better off dealing damage than healing-but there are plenty of cases where healing someone who might drop is better than dealing damage to the enemy. There are also plenty of situations (usually more) where it's not.
Yeah, there are caster clerics, too. They usually aren't being effective of they are wading into melee. But because they tend to have useful spells and metamagic feats, they may or may not have better things to do than heal. It entirely depends on the circumstance, metamagic feats and wands selected, type of caster, etc.
There are channeling clerics, hybrid clerics, reach clerics and necromancers. Clerics can be blasters or controllers or debuffers or healers or summoners or...well, lots of things. Every one of them has a different approach to any given situation and a different priority on what sorts of actions are best to take-overall.
Every argument made against healing in combat can be made against summoning in combat as well (OK, not every argument but several)...unless you're built to be an awesome summoner.
This is true for any cleric build.
Similarly most of the arguments made for healing in combat can be applied to plenty of other actions.
But I feel that we have already said this and with fewer words and more than once. It's like a dog chasing it's tail.
PS.
170+ posts since yesterday, really? You guys made me read all that? :)
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With both bless and divine favor, you've spent two rounds buffing.
The typical fight is over in three.
That's not how you do it. It's almost always a bad idea to spend in-combat time on self-buffs. There are plenty of creative workarounds.
You cast the extended Bless spell minutes before the fight, when you first suspect danger.
Divine Favor (with Fate's Favored trait) is a 5th or 4th (with Magical Lineage) level Swift Action giving +4 to hit and +4 damage for a 9th level caster. At that point, Round One, you are decently buffed and can either Full Attack or take a Move and Standard Action.
If you full attack you'll do it with few buffs: just +5 +4 for you, whatever other long-lasting still-in-effect buffs you burned a spell on, and +1 +0 for everyone else. Those numbers can easily get much larger.
You can often accomplish more with a Move and Standard. You might have to move for your Move action. For a Move action maybe you start Inspire Courage (if you're an Evangelist) for another +x +x (doesn't stack with bless). Perhaps, instead, you Quick Channel as a Move action. For your standard action you cast a spell (e.g. Blessing of Fervor, Communal Resist Energy of the correct type, etc), or possibly attack. You 5' step to fish for AoOs. You possibly get one or more well-buffed AoOs.
That's how you play the self-buff game.
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I think party composition makes a difference in what's more effective for a cleric to do.
As does combat scenarios. Length of combat day. Number of combat encounters per day. Level of the characters. Number of successive hits a character can take before dying. How many opponents you're facing.
If you're playing society games vs home games makes a difference in what is perceived as more useful, especially for random table allocations.
In other words, telling people you're doing it wrong has absolutely no meaning outside your particular scenario.
There are so many variables at play here that it's nearly impossible to make a true judgement call on this.
I like Fake Healers post on page one of this thread. I reckon it sums up exactly what needs to be said.
Cheers
I have seen a 15th-level cleric who could channel for 40d6, having spent one feat (Quick Channel) and the phylactery (she did grab more channels because she felt like it, but it wasn't necessary). The other choices she made had no real trade-off, since those were choices she wanted anyway for her many non-healing contributions, and one of them actually literally cost nothing.
No snark intended. But 40d6 in a round at level 15, how is that possible?
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I suspect a misreading of the whimsy domain power before it was changed with the new publication.I have seen a 15th-level cleric who could channel for 40d6, having spent one feat (Quick Channel) and the phylactery (she did grab more channels because she felt like it, but it wasn't necessary). The other choices she made had no real trade-off, since those were choices she wanted anyway for her many non-healing contributions, and one of them actually literally cost nothing.No snark intended. But 40d6 in a round at level 15, how is that possible?
Nope, I saw the whole build. It was 100% legitimate.
Here's a clue. When she leveled to 16 (and she did), there was an ambiguity in her abilities where she either healed 120+20d6 or 150+10d6. I ruled that it would be 120+20d6, but it was still powerful.
Some sort of fey foundling use?
Nope, remember no additional feat commitment beyond Quick Channel was necessary (in fact, looking it over, she actually got Quick Channel as a bonus feat). Also it went from 40d6 at level 15 to 120+20d6 at level 16, and Fey Foundling requires level 1.
Come on then, let us all in on the secret that makes healing in combat worth it that we have all been missing.
Last hint--one of the necessary components was banned in PFS (though not for power reasons). The best you'll do in PFS is 30d6 instead (I believe).
Y'know what'd be awesome and make healing in combat worth it? If no one knew their HP. It'd be unworkable slowing down fights immensely but just imagine if you knew only what your starting HP was and never knew how much damage your enemies did.
You start out at 20 HP. The evil barbarian hits you, and the GM tells you only that your PC is hurt badly. Next round your fighter goes down; you don't have any idea how far negative your HP are or even if you're stable unless someone uses the Heal skill or a spell to check on you. Suddenly the PC cleric has a choice; heal you for X amount of HP or chance letting you bleed out while he buffs himself and moves in for the kill.
Other than that houserule though, healing in combat in my opinion is still just a 50/50 toss up.
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Well, there are spells that support the notion that players actually do not know exact HP amounts. The convention in playing, however, is different. Because of my most recent character I have begun playing without asking for specific HP totals and by not giving any. I tell people that I am bleeding profusely (and often do not get healed) or that I buckle and drop to one knee before rising again to continue to fight (still don't get healed). Sometimes I use words like 'unsteady' and 'weak' or a phrase describing my newly acquired status of having a lot fewer hit points, 'that last blow looks like it took a lot out of him but he can still manage'.
My personal information experience is that without asking directly for a heal (even out of combat), it won't happen unless you get caught in a channel or someone remembers to ask you specifically. I've gone into multiple encounters with a single hit being enough to drop me because poeple capable of healing fail to register 'Market wobbles unsteadily as blood pours from his gaping wounds' during the fight and then after it is over while we are exploring 'Shagorax breathes heavily as he struggles to keep up with the group due to his injuries'.
Despite people just not comprehending things as obvious (to me) as that, I genuinely prefer not knowing exact numbers. Spells like deathwatch and status as well as items that simulate their effects have those price tags for a reason. They are much more valuable when playing as the system seems to intend you play.
Mark, your idea is actually fairly manageable if you're using a virtual tabletop - Roll20.net for example has tools that would make this easy.
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If the DM is running hero labs it might be viable too.
In my group, anyone capable of healing tends to ask if anyone needs it before making an action.
Typically it goes "is everyone ok, can we do this without me healing yet?"
This provides the sense of realism for us at least. It means panicky players may call it more often than not, but it also gives the potential healer a chance to make a judgement call.
If the response to question above is two or more characters feeling very beaten up and at risk, then a healing spell is more likely to come about than only one character in need.
Playing a healing capable character often means being the one watching the battle for potential TPK vs victory, particularly at high levels.
But then, our games tend to run with greater numbers of combatants than seems normal. At higher levels the CR system gets pretty blurry and for my group we tend to roll multiple encounters together in waves of combatants more than seems the norm for other groups.
Cheers
Come on then, let us all in on the secret that makes healing in combat worth it that we have all been missing.Last hint--one of the necessary components was banned in PFS (though not for power reasons). The best you'll do in PFS is 30d6 instead (I believe).
Aasimar or Elf Life Oracle using the alternate favored class bonus on channel?
Aasimar or Elf Life Oracle using the alternate favored class bonus on channel?Come on then, let us all in on the secret that makes healing in combat worth it that we have all been missing.Last hint--one of the necessary components was banned in PFS (though not for power reasons). The best you'll do in PFS is 30d6 instead (I believe).
Its a cleric.
We must figure this out.
I am going to play a Cleric of Nethys who has pretty average stats (except his Wisdom, which is 19) and the Guided Hand feat.
Is this optimal? Probably not. But it's the only way I figured I could be a full-caster Cleric and still be a pretty decent beatstick when necessary.
I played a Life Oracle to level 4 in Carrion Crown, and he was a lot of fun, but I think focusing on hitting stuff (and being able to heal after fights, of course) would have been more fun in the long run.
Adding to Akerlof, a reach based evangelist cleric with his inspire songs and also with summoning is possibly the ultimate combination of things to do with a cleric. This especially true with a banner of the ancient kings and the flag bearer feat. There will always be something to do besides healing with this build.
Last hint--one of the necessary components was banned in PFS (though not for power reasons). The best you'll do in PFS is 30d6 instead (I believe).That should probably be the ceiling even outside PFS,
Unlife Healer (Su): At 8th level, the undead lord's spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities used to heal undead heal an extra 50% damage. At 16th level, these effects automatically heal the maximum possible damage for the effect + the extra 50%. This does not stack with abilities or feats such as Empower Spell or Maximize Spell....Some variant channeling abilities are enhanced when used on particular creature types...Lots of dhamphirs in the party, or is the cleric standard-action-touching people before every channel?
She had a few tricks up her sleeve. The most important one was prebuffing it on the positive affinity character she knew would need her help (and who couldn't be healed by heal anyway), the superstitious barbarian.
In answer to the original post about how to operate without healing- It is simple, have your dominated creatures, undead minions, bound outsiders, and simulacrums do everything for you.
Anything less, and your not playing the game as efficiently as possible, and thus your doing it wrong!
But seriously, healing in combat works just fine.
While it is true that healing can't keep up with damage indefinitely, it most certainly can be effective enough to be a very important action. For example, take a 10th level cleric with the healing domain, casting cure critical wounds- 4d8+10 empowered averages about 38 healing per round. If almost 40 hp of healing/round isn't keeping the character (who probably has about 100hp) in the fight, you probably need to switch up your tactics. Especially considering that the "high avg damage" of a CR 11 creature is only 50.
If multiple characters have gotten banged up, a channel will heal 5d6 (avg 17hp). while this isn't a very big chunk of hp at 10th level, if you hit everyone in the party, and a summoned creature, mount, familiar, etc. It could likely be almost 100hp of healing.
Considering that neither of these options uses any substantial resources, or requires any special feats, equipment, build (other then healing domain), I would say that healing is VERY effective!
Repost from this thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbph?Myth-Busters-Pathfinder-Edition#1
Ah.
Undeath Subdomain CHannel, +50% Channel.
Undead Lord Archetype, +50% Negative channel, increasing to Max +50%
Undeath Subdomain power, touch someone and have them count as undead.
Effectively, you 'make someone undead' and heal them for Max Amount +100%.
Now, is there a positive energy version of this? Because making an undeath domain channeler the best of its kind is all kinds of wrong.
==Aelryinth
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Very cool idea but I must be missing something in my math because the highest I can work it out to be is 20d6.
10d6 w. Phylactery at 15th Level, +50% from variant channel = +5d6 (so 15d6 total now), another +50% from Undeath subdomain = +5d6 (up to 20d6 total). At 16th that last part changes to Max +50% which I'm not 100% sure on but I suppose works as 15d6 maxed to 90 + an extra 5d6 on top.
Would make an amazing leader to keep up a bunch of undead the party are fighting, I never noticed the interaction of the two abilities before, much appreciated for the nod towards it! :)
Very cool idea but I must be missing something in my math because the highest I can work it out to be is 20d6.
10d6 w. Phylactery at 15th Level, +50% from variant channel = +5d6 (so 15d6 total now), another +50% from Undeath subdomain = +5d6 (up to 20d6 total). At 16th that last part changes to Max +50% which I'm not 100% sure on but I suppose works as 15d6 maxed to 90 + an extra 5d6 on top.
Would make an amazing leader to keep up a bunch of undead the party are fighting, I never noticed the interaction of the two abilities before, much appreciated for the nod towards it! :)
Then double channel with Quick Channel when necessary to double that. And yeah, she kept a lot of bloody skeletons and fast zombies around too...at least until they eventually got killed.
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Come on then, let us all in on the secret that makes healing in combat worth it that we have all been missing.
His trick has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not healing us good in combat. Your table's play style is the most critical part of how important it is.
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Then double channel with Quick Channel when necessary to double that. And yeah, she kept a lot of bloody skeletons and fast zombies around too...at least until they eventually got killed.
Ah of course, thank you, I shall have to spoil my parties day with this when I need to give them a tough fight in a future battle, much appreciated! :D
Come on then, let us all in on the secret that makes healing in combat worth it that we have all been missing.His trick has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not healing us good in combat. Your table's play style is the most critical part of how important it is.
Well, don't keep us in suspense. What's his trick?
Considering that neither of these options uses any substantial resources, or requires any special feats, equipment, build (other then healing domain), I would say that healing is VERY effective!Just want to say that Cure Critical is either a 4th or 5th level spell. At level 10, that is definitely a substantial resource.
The healing domain cleric is easily capable of swapping out other spells and using domain spells to cast:
5 empowered cures serious5 empowered cure critical
3 empowered cure light mass and a breath of life, or other combos.
Also, you can channel 5d6 about 4-5/day, cast a half dozen each empowered cure light and moderate, and use the heal skill to heal a little as well. Next level you get access to the Heal spell (110hp healing), and your channel jumps to 6d6. This doesn't spend a dime on wands, scrolls, potions, rods, etc. even though you get 7,000gp for the encounter. It is also without a feat, trait, racial ability, or anything else but choosing healing as one of your two domains, and channeling positive energy instead of negative.
A fourth level spell, (that could be memorized as any other) is not insignificant, but I would not call it a substantial use of resources in a CR 11 "Challenging" encounter.
Not to mention a single CR 11 fight against a party of level 10's is so pathetic it barely bears mentioning. That's one of those things that more optimized characters are easily capable of soloing. If you need to heal for that I'd be worried about the safety of your group.
If the encounter is "Epic" difficulty, the average damage goes up from 50 damage a round, to 60. Again, assuming that all attacks can be made and are successful. It also uses the "High Average Damage" number.
My point is that under the default conditions of the game, healing works just fine. If you want to optimize damage, and optimize healing, I think it still holds up.
Considering that neither of these options uses any substantial resources, or requires any special feats, equipment, build (other then healing domain), I would say that healing is VERY effective!Just want to say that Cure Critical is either a 4th or 5th level spell. At level 10, that is definitely a substantial resource.The healing domain cleric is easily capable of swapping out other spells or using domain spells to cast:
5 empowered cures serious
5 empowered cure critical
3 empowered cure light mass and a breath of life, or other combos.
Also, you can channel 5d6 about 4-5/day, cast a half dozen each empowered cure light and moderate, and use the heal skill to heal a little as well. And that is without spending a dime on scrolls, potions, rods, wands, etc. even though you get 7,000gp for the encounter. It is also without a feat, trait, racial ability, or anything else but choosing healing as one of your two domains, and channeling positive energy instead of negative.A fourth level spell, (that could be memorized as any other) is not insignificant, but I would not call it a substantial use of resources in a CR 11 "Challenging" encounter.
I would. Primarily because of the other far mroe interesting spells that can be used that day. Blessing of Fervor and Debilitating Portent come to mind.
Or Divine Power.
Yeah, I like my 4th level slots.
I think the point is that you can cast all three of those spells, and still cast the empowered cure critical. And you haven't used any of your highest level spells or spent a gp.
Healing doesn't prevent you from doing other cool things.
I think the point is that you can cast all three of those spells, and still cast the empowered cure critical. And you haven't used any of your highest level spells or spent a gp.
Healing doesn't prevent you from doing other cool things.
I don't consider healing "cool" either.
I'd rather spend lower spell slots. BEsides there's a big energy draining elephant in the room this is missing.
Something else worth noting here is that the "averages" part of that graphs is most certainly useful as a rough idea that actual numbers form monster to monster widely vary particularly wehn you get into NPC's.
For example our friend the Thanadaemon does far less than the average damage of a creature his CR.
But, it almost doesn't even matter since he can slap people with enervation and move in to finish them off with energy draining attacks.
Meanwhile our friend the cryohydra's damage on his full attack ranges around 85.
Point being is that ymmv when using such numbers particularly since they only talk about numbers and not about the other two and arguably far more important factors in combat; positioning and actions.
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Slinks off to go heal with the other uncool kids...
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I think that healing with any optimization behind it is cool. I reserved a high level (for my character) spell slot today for a heal because the threat was real. We healed every round of our boss encounter, sometimes twice a round. Our tank had shield other cast on him since we knew he could not survive the enemies damage wihpthout some healing and mitigation for very long. The bosses readied action when we opened the door was to hit the tank for 40+. I took half of that. I have 50 HP. Well, 45 thanks to a permanent negative level.
The following round the tank ate 20-30 more damage and that was after being missed twice. I took half. At this point, the healing began. Had it not, our options would have been to try and flee or to die. Healing is the only reason we won that fight and we were not built with an optimized healer. We have a cleric with the healing domain who burned through a lot of spells as he struggled to keep up with the damage. He never was in a position to do anything else normally deemed 'more useful' because not healing would have resulted in PC deaths. I was healing 3 HP/round and giving a +1 moral bonus each round. I managed to crack through the enemies spell resistance a couple of times but he made some saves and mitigated a lot of damage with his resistances. Still hurt him, though. Our martials layer into him landing power attacks and such, using two handed weapons and a sword and shield combo. Offense was necessary but we couldn't have dealt much more than we were already doing. The boss was tough, he hit really hard and really often. We hit hard, reasonably often but defense and healing were what was needed for that encounter. Fortunately we had it. If our cleric had been a battle cleric or a caster cleric we would not have fared well. In fact, I am pretty sure we would not have tried and skipped the encounter.
Healing isn't always the best choice. But sometimes, it is so needed, especially in fights that are fights and not 3 round rocket tags. We duked that one out for somewhere between 6-10 rounds. 3/4 of the party was nearly dead. And yes, we came in with buffs and items and everything precast and ready to go. We prepared for this fight and it was close. Was fun as heck, though. I don't see how a similar party of reasonably built PC's would have handled the encounter without some sort of healing.
Reading this thread I get the impression that both side think the same thing, but are misrepresenting the other side so that they can Win the argument. Unless anyone really thinks that the best action for a cleric is to Top up the parties HP in the middle of combat when they are not likely to go down that round?