Brute [homebrew] blast from the past


Homebrew and House Rules

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Upon seeing Ravingdork's thread about old content on the WOTC site, I looked for some of my terrible homebrew from years gone by. One of the first classes I attempted was titled the Brute and was posted in March 2008.

What follows is a revamp of that. I dropped several class features (there were way too many), added a couple of new ones, and rewrote them all for PF, while retaining the spirit and names of the originals.

What I decided to keep in it's original form for now is all of the fluff.

its pretty bad:
A tall man with a massive club across his back leans at the bar of a dingy tavern having a drink and a laugh with the barkeep. It is early in the day and there is a peace about the place. Some light splashes in as the front door opens and three grisly looking men enter. They look about for only a second and approach. “Where were you?” one with small tusks growls “We barely escaped! You were to be there!” The large man jingles some coin in his purse, levels his gaze at them, and says “I lied. I see you’re not all here…” “We’re here to collect for that debt. You didn’t show and now Mravis is in the river. You’re coming with us.” He turns to them and stands at his full height – a head taller than any of them – crossing his arms. “You’re in the wrong place to be making demands like that. Which one of you volunteers for the first kiss from Betsy?” he replies, tilting his head at his weapon. They make nervous glances at each other then depart silently.

That night he arrives at a bar in different part of town. He is here to meet a friend who hasn’t shown. “May as well have a drink. Who knows?” There are more people about – sailors in town, miners, craftsmen, wenches and scoundrels. Suddenly, a pair of arms wrap around him from behind and several fists begin pounding into his front! He’s been ambushed and he’s in for more than a black eye. With a roar, he summons his strength and throws them back a step. With a barstool in hand he brains the first one he makes out in the shadows. The body staggers back and he spins on another, dropping his heavy fist in his belly. Taking a nearby mug in hands he quickly looks about. They weren’t expecting such retaliation and have backed off. Swinging it about threateningly him he edges away.

A becloaked halfling by the door whispers quickly “You’re handy in a fight! I’ve a wizard friend short on funds needing to leave town quickly. Our warrior friend met a gruesome end and we’re looking for another pair of hands. Interested in making some money?” Surprised, but interested, he nods. “Then I’ll find you. Mind the one to your left!” He hurls the mug at a man creeping along the wall and blood pours from the wound. In an instant our hero is gone and off to safer surroundings.

****

Adventures: The Brute is most at home in a large town or city where opportunities and excitement abound but is not about expanding his horizons and testing his daring. Nothing shakes up the ordinary or gets someone who is in trouble out of town like a hike through the wilderness or a dungeon crawl. There are bigger enemies and untold treasures to be found and the Brute is ready for them all.

Characteristics: The Brute is a primary combatant who, like the barbarian, relies on guts and thick skin rather than armor and is adept at using what is available to big to defeat those he opposes. He prefers blunt weaponry for availability and ease of use – besides it makes a great squishy sound when it breaks skin! He isn’t above less-than-honorable tactics, preferring to fighty down and dirty, charging directly into the fray. When a mace or club isn’t available, anything heavy and handy will suffice. Failing that, he knows how to kill with his bare hands. The sheer excitement he experiences from battle pushes him to survive the worst wounds. His strengths shine in life-or-death situations.

Alignment: The Brute is not so much inclined towards chaos as he is adverse to law. Life moves to quickly and has too many opportunities to be restricted to haughty codes of conduct and manners. And while they are not above using certain tactics against enemies or those who might have something they want, the Brute’s views on morality are his own. However, it is unlikely that even the evil Brute is set on much beyond his own needs and even the good Brute would not stick out his neck too far for someone else who didn’t really need help.

Religion: While some may worship Gods like Kord or Fharlanghn, and others perhaps Erythnul, most Brutes couldn’t be bothered with paying homage to a higher power.

Background: Most Brutes grew up poor and in rough areas where they learned to survive by being bigger, stronger or wilier than those who struggled just to get by. Some took to the path later in life because of the excitement of bar room brawls and back alley encounters.

Races: Most Brutes are of Human or Orcish decent, though some Dwarves who have rejected the rigidity of their people fall to it as well. Gnomes and Elves rarely take to it but more than one Halfling has left a tavern in ruins.

Other Classes: Brutes see classes like Fighters and Barbarians as capable combatants with their own unique and worthy skills, but lacking whatever savvy the Brute thinks he possesses. Many get along well with Rogues and Bards, seeing them as versatile and good allies to have. They aren’t much concerned with Rangers, Monks and Paladins but take each individually. In the case of primary spell casters such as Clerics and Wizards, the Brute appreciates the ones who take risks and have his back.

Role: In a standard party with a second martial combatant, the Brute’s ability to make a door where there isn’t one and survive the worst disasters leaves the other warrior room to specialize in perhaps archery of skirmishing, although a Barbarian and a Brute would make quite force to be reckoned with.

Ability Scores: Strength and Constitution are vital to this class, even though his talents help compensate when they are not as high as another’s. Although sharp mental faculties aren’t necessary, they are another tool available to him.

And here is the LINK TO THE BRUTE


I like it and don't really have many notes aside from the fact that you need a capstone.

I would maybe have dirty fighting scale more. As it stands, the +2 at level 3 is pretty impressive compared to the fighter's no bonus at all (and ties with the barbarian's rage), but at higher levels the brute falls far behind in its efficacy even in situations where the class was once the best (when their opponents are cowed or helpless). Maybe the moral bonus should be 2 then an additional +1 at level 8 and every 5 levels thereafter.

Even if you do that, I am not even going to call dirty fighting an incredible ability. Moral bonuses are abundant in Pathfinder and the class's ability just won't stack. I think that is just fine, though.

This class's role is not so much combat in my opinion as it is a very specific skill monkey. The suave swashbuckler and the harden soldier can probably beat the brute in a fight but this is the guy in the story that frightens away the crowd of enemies rather then fights them and later bends the iron bars to escape prison. It is a character class that fills a role that is more iconic than you perhaps give it credit.


Good points, and all true I would wager. I feel like I have done something different with this one, but you are saying that it also needs to keep up with other martial classes.


Pretty much. I just feel like it should be able to keep up with martial classes under the circumstances this class is best with.


I refined some of the lower level features, which I consider the most important before looking at the higher level ones. I focused on the thematic elements of each class feature, trying to refine my intent. Hopefully it worked.

What did you mean by more iconic than I give it credit? It it addresses your response in any way, this was a total marysue project when I began it in 2008.


I am just saying there is a fantasy trope like your brute. Fezzik from The Princess Bride is a really good example. He is smashy and scary and even cunning but not a world class warrior either.

In improved bully and liar: I think you should give the class the greater feint feat if he already has the improved feint feat (which is actually a better effect that does not stack for the Brute).


Is that a good thing, or does it relegate this to a mere pet project?

Oh! There's that part where he talks about how it is easier to fight crowds, and needing to use different moves to fight a single opponent. That could be a fun class feature.


I think it is a good thing. And you answered while I was editing my last post.


I want to grant unique uses of demoralize and feint, rather than simply slapping feats on it.

The Blunt Heavy Objects chain is going to change too. Your Fezzig reference made me think of him throwing small boulders.


I really like this class! I could also see giving it something akin to the Barbarian rage power Hurling. The addition of a few Talent/Rage Power/Discovery type abilities or a selection of bonus feats a la Monk might not go amiss too.


Also, explicitly stating that the rounds spent denied dexterity to AC stack would be a good idea.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

I want to grant unique uses of demoralize and feint, rather than simply slapping feats on it.

The Blunt Heavy Objects chain is going to change too. Your Fezzig reference made me think of him throwing small boulders.

For the feint ability: all you are doing is giving the class a worse version of improved feint. How about a different way tom improve it? Perhaps a Brute with improved feint can instead gain the ability to feint as a swift action once per day per enemy.

And I think you could convert this into a talent class pretty well (as Ptolmaeus suggested). I would just replace Brawler with the first talent slot and then convert Brawler and every odd-level class ability into talents (some of which must be taken in a certain order of course). I know you like a sort of simple design aesthetic, though.


Ptolmaues:
Yes, please point out anything unclear, undefined, etc. The original version from 2008 had bonus feats, and maybe they will come back in the future, but for now I'm doing class features.

Ex:
As you know I do like it my classes simple, but you have also seen two of my classes that have a "new talent every other level" gimmick, so it can be done. I will upload the latest version this evening. I have so far removed the feat-like aspect from the level 5 ability. I have some thematic aspects I want to keep, but the mechanics are still in a state of flux, so I thank you for the input.


I have two versions of Thrill of a Fight in the document. The first still only allows the ability to be used once per day. The second one is a Grit-like mechanic, except that it is without a means to recharge itself throughout the day and is meant to be used more slowly. It is also more powerful because the brute can spend the points to beef up some of his higher level abilities.


Version 1 is the way it has been for a long time. Version 2 is like Grit, but as-of-yet without the fluctuating number of points.

VERSION 1
Thrill of a Fight (Ex):
As an immediate action when a brute takes damage, he gains temporary hit points equal to his level + his Constitution modifier (minimum 1). He can use this ability once per day. As long as a brute has these temporary hit points, or for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution modifier, whichever is greater, the following provisions take effect:
-He gains additional temporary hit points equal to his Constitution modifier (minimum 1) at the end of his turn if he succeeds on an attack or combat maneuver. At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, the number of additional temporary hit points increases by 1.
-Increases to his temporary hit points granted by this class feature cannot bring the number of his temporary hit points to more than twice his level plus + his Constitution modifier.
-He loses 1 temporary hit point at the end of his turn if he does not make an attack or use a combat maneuver against a hostile creature.
-He gains a +2 morale bonus to natural armor and to his saving throws. At 6th level and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1. If he has temporary hit points from another source, he gains only half this bonus.

VERSION 2
Thrill of a Fight (Ex):
A brute gains a pool of points equal to his Constitution modifier or his level, whichever is lower (minimum 1) It represents his inclination towards conflict and his ability to survive abuse of all kinds. The total number of points in this pool is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.

As an immediate action when he takes damage, drops an enemy to zero hit points, knock an enemy unconscious, or successfully demoralizes a creature, he can spend a point from the pool to gain a number of temporary hit points equal to his brute level + his Constitution modifier (minimum 1). He cannot use this ability more than once per hour. As long as a brute has these temporary hit points, or for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution modifier, whichever is greater, the following provisions take effect:
-He gains a +2 morale bonus to his natural armor and to his saving throws. At 6th level and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1.
-He gains additional temporary hit points equal to his Constitution modifier (minimum 1) at the end of any turn in which he succeeds on an attack or combat maneuver. At 3rd level and every three levels thereafter, the number of additional temporary hit points increases by 1.
-Increases to his temporary hit points granted by this class feature cannot bring the number of his temporary hit points to more than twice his level plus + his Constitution modifier.
He loses 1 temporary hit point at the end of his turn if he does not make an attack or use a combat maneuver against a hostile creature.

A brute can also spend a point from this pool as a swift action to gain damage reduction equal to his Constitution bonus + half his level for 1 round.


I like these abilities but I think they are kind of weird. Can the brute stay in "thrill of the fight mode" indefinitely? If so, then I think you need some way to discount temporary hitpoints from other sources or it could be pretty game-able (which I think may be too much of a hassle rules-wise).

How about a version with charges, but it has a duration instead of lasting until the temporary hitpoints wear off. For example: It can grant hit points when it is activated then additional points after a "hit turn" for 1+1/2 rounds thereafter.


Actually, that's exactly what I am working towards. If you have time to take a peek at the PDF it might look better. Still not complete. Once the thing starts to feel right, I can try to finish bit picking the grammar, clarity, gaping holes, etcetera.


Thrill of a fight has expanded quite a bit. It more grit like. I can only guess how the specifics will play out in battle. Anyone want to weigh in?


I really like the revised version of Thrill of the Fight. As a stylistic note: why do you need to tell the reader that destroying an unattended object won't increase the thrill pool?

Smash on the run is an amazing ability that I really like.


I copied that from Grit. It is redundant. Redundancy has both it's pros and cons, yes?

Smash on the run great. I was pretty excited when I thought of it.


Ok, so here is what I need input on. The 1st level feature Thrill of a Fight is my attempt at a non-rage rage-style ability. The brute gets some temporary hit points and AC and save bonuses. Nothing relating to attacks.

The basic idea is that he starts the ability and gains a pool of temps, gets hit and loses temps, he attacks and gains temps (Before you shout "4e Battlerager Fighter!", bear in mind that I began this concept in 2008, when i was still playing 3.5). What I am not sure about it is how many is too many or too few. The way I have it now, I -believe- that he will thrive when facing underlings, but against a potent foe, he will lose his temps and then lose his defensive bonuses.

But this is all conjecture. There are so many variables. A barbarian's rage at least had the consistent element of rounds. I considered stealing rage, but I want to do something new. Mine has lost measurable quality and is tossed to the chaos of combat variables. I think that is a good thing? I have no ability to perform actual play test at this time

Oh, and if anyone is curious about the lack of options in this class, the brute is the first step in a concept I have mused on for years for a different style of character classes to appeal to a different kind of player. Not everyone wants as many options (bonus feats, spells, talents, powers, etc). I have ideas for a few others that will follow some important archetypes IMHO, such as the knave, hero, wanderer, and the most elusive: the fool.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Ok, so here is what I need input on. The 1st level feature Thrill of a Fight is my attempt at a non-rage rage-style ability. The brute gets some temporary hit points and AC and save bonuses. Nothing relating to attacks.

The basic idea is that he starts the ability and gains a pool of temps, gets hit and loses temps, he attacks and gains temps (Before you shout "4e Battlerager Fighter!", bear in mind that I began this concept in 2008, when i was still playing 3.5). What I am not sure about it is how many is too many or too few. The way I have it now, I -believe- that he will thrive when facing underlings, but against a potent foe, he will lose his temps and then lose his defensive bonuses.

But this is all conjecture. There are so many variables. A barbarian's rage at least had the consistent element of rounds. I considered stealing rage, but I want to do something new. Mine has lost measurable quality and is tossed to the chaos of combat variables. I think that is a good thing? I have no ability to perform actual play test at this time

Oh, and if anyone is curious about the lack of options in this class, this tied into a concept I have mused on for a different style of character classes to appeal to a different kind of player. Not everyone wants as many options (bonus feats, spells, talents, powers, etc). I have ideas for a few others that will follow some important archetypes IMHO, such as the knave, hero, wanderer, and the most elusive: the fool.

I think Dirty fighting is this class's core offensive feature. He is going to feint or frighten the enemy and then land big hits with a club. This class does do better when fighting a bunch of mooks but that is arguably a more "fun" (thrilling?) fight anyways and it is okay for classes to succeed more in some conditions than others.


I don't see a standard brute using feint much, due to the feat and Intelligence investment, although there is room for that. In the interest of teamwork, I hope I have left room for party members to help create these conditions as well.

What do you think of the improvised weapon abilities, and subsequent rock throwing?


I like them conceptually and they will be fun when it comes up but I don't think either increases the power of the class terribly due to pathfinder's late game dependence on magic items.


Good point. I'll need to make allowances for that. I don't want to go so far as counting as magic items like a monks unarmed attacks, but something. Should breaking a chair over someone be a touch attack?


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Good point. I'll need to make allowances for that. I don't want to go so far as counting as magic items like a monks unarmed attacks, but something. Should breaking a chair over someone be a touch attack?

I am not sure about that. Maybe improvised weapon attacks could make an enemy flat footed or otherwise leave them susceptible to the Brute's dirty fighting class feature for the next round or two (as well as always get the dirty fighting bonus for the improvised weapon attack itself).


That is exactly what the Catch-Off Guard feat does. It was a bonus feat as part of the Dirty Fighting feature until about a week ago when I took it out and replaced it. A brute can choose to have it or not.


Catch off guard only works when the opponent is unarmed and they also don't stay flat footed. I am now saying the mechanic should be that they stay susceptible to the dirty fighting bonus for a round or two which is less powerful than them staying flat footed and will still stack with catch off guard.


A pseudo improved version of COG, that doesn't negate the benefit of the original COG? I like where this is going.


I began with only a few ways to spend thrill points (it's like grit) but now have a dozen or so, so more like the gunslingers number of deeds. However, these abilities to spend the points is built into other class features. I was at the ocean this week and got to spend some extra time writing, cause obviously that's what people at the beach do.

Sovereign Court

So... I like the feel of the class. There's some real gold in the class abilities.

But I think the mechanics, at this stage anyway, are still rather clunky. Thrill of a Fight is spread over two pages and has dash- and bulletpoint lists. Right now this class has the curious property of having rather extensive rules to make it do something very simple: beating stuff up.

When I started reading the class I immediately thought about about this scene from Ong Bak. Especially the Turkish-looking guy, who's using all kinds of improvized weapons. Notice how those actually give Tony Jaa the hardest time; his refined fighting style has quite some difficulty with those unconventional attacks.

Now, improvized weapons are normally not something you do in PF if it isn't needed, because they tend to really suck compared to real weapons. They do less damage, have bad to hit, and don't carry enchantments.

However as that scene shows, they can be really cool. They do however need game mechanics to make them good enough to use. I'm thinking in the direction of denying opponents Dex to damage by constantly picking up new stuff to hit them with, so that opponents don't get to time to figure out how to defend against the thing you're currently wielding.


That's kind the intent. I don't know how well i have executed it.


I think you could reword dirty fighting a little bit. I think the idea you have is super solid but I feel like it is going to have limited usefulness since the dirty fighting bonus only lasts from one attack until the next and the last attack in a full attack will nearly always miss. What is wrong with the bonus extending to the end of the Brute's next turn whenever he successfully hits and enemy? That way he will only have to hit the enemy once a turn to keep the bonus going.

Can I suggest a new feat to go with this class?

Improved Catch Off Guard
Req: Catch Off Guard and Brawler level 7

Once a round when you attack an enemy with an improvised weapon, you may deny the enemy its dexterity bonus to its AC even when that enemy is armed.

Normal: When you attack enemies with Catch Off Guard, you only deny your opponents their dexterity bonus to armor class when the enemy is unarmed.

Between my proposed edit and that feat, you can have a character that incorporates attacks with improvised weapons in an effective way.


I will change dirty fighting to that. I've been trying not go too crazy with this, power wise.

Seems like a good feat. What if it was built into the class instead?


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

I will change dirty fighting to that. I've been trying not go too crazy with this, power wise.

Seems like a good feat. What if it was built into the class instead?

I think that would work fine but then I would give the class catch off guard as a bonus feat first. Or is that in the latest version of the class anyways?


I took out catch off guard as a bonus feat a while back. The monk gets three feats at first level. Is it too much to give the brute two, given what else they have?

Oh, and asc.

I'm not familiar with that character, but it sounds like something I would like to implement.


I would give CoG at second or third level to avoid that kind of situation.


It used to be part of dirty fights until one of your idea inspired a change. :)

Sczarni

Do temporary hit points from multiple sources stack? If so, how does the Brute know when he loses his bonuses if, say, he drinks a potion of False Life?

The TempHP mechanic is cool, but I'm a little worried at how swingy it is. One good crit and suddenly he's not only at half health, he's just lost a good deal of other bonuses.

I would also give him a few less-wordy options for spending thrill points. Maybe 1 point to gain a bonus on sunder checks/Strength checks to break stuff, like the monk's ability to boost his Acrobatics score?


Temps do not stack unless specified. I need to include something where, if he has a few left and gets a larger number froma different source, then the ability continues.

Losing the entire thing in one hit is something I've been wondering over. I don't want to do rounds like rage, because this is something new. And more difficult to design it seems. For now, the fix is the minimum number of rounds based on Con, but even that isn't great.

What about this?
The brute can spend a thrill point as an immediate action when he deals or takes damage in the heat of combat. If he does so, he gains temporary hit points equal to his brute level + his Constitution bonus. He cannot use this ability more than once per hour. Until he begins a turn with no temporary hit points, the following provisions take effect:
-He gains a +2 morale bonus to his natural armor and to his saving throws. At 6th level and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1.
-He gains temporary hit points equal to his brute level + his Constitution bonus each time he inflicts damage to a creature. Temporary hit points do not stack.
-He loses all temporary hit points granted by this class feature one minute after combat ends (I know that combat is a loose term).

It took a lot of time and changes to the class, but the reason there are so many ways to spend thrill points is because of the number of deeds that a gunslinger has, and I thought that was a good idea. Half of the gunslingers deeds are kind of crap anyway.

Sovereign Court

Am I right in assuming that the idea is that this class is completely nonmagical? While it's somewhat similar to barbarians, those tend to get all kinds of magical rage powers. Not the Brute. He does at some point start to hit things unbelievably, but that's because at some point he goes into high (level) fantasy mode, not because he gets supernatural powers.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Should this maybe also include the light and heavy flail and the earthbreaker?

Brawler
Kudos on making a brute that can actually fist-fight. It always annoys me to have a supposedly cool warrior that can't really fight unarmed. I do wonder if the unarmed damage progression shouldn't go faster. Maybe on the Monk schedule.

I think the proficiency with improvised weapons should be moved to a separate ability, maybe something like Fight With Anything, to remind us of the alchemist ability. I think it's a sufficiently important part of the class to deserve a full treatment.

Thrill of a Fight
First off, it's important that this ability ends up on a single page, not spread across two of them, because it'll probably be the one you refer to most often while playing.

I like the things that let you regain Thrill Points, but maybe there's something missing still. You get a LOT of TP when you're bashing down mooks, but against a single boss enemy it gets a lot harder. Crits with improvised and unarmed strikes aren't all that frequent.

Spending TP as an immediate action when you're damaged is problematic. You'd lose those TP again right away, and also your Swift on the next round, so it'd be hard to keep the Thrill active. Also, getting a boost to AC while you're being damaged feels like it's just too late. Since you can only gain these temp HP 1x/hour, and they're not all that many, you'd probably immediately lose them again and then you'd also lose all the rider effects. And since your class encourages low armor, getting hit won't be rare.

Spending TP as an immediate action to keep the Thrill going isn't a solution, because you've just spent your immediate action already.

Brute Force
I think this ability would look neater if you cut the TP option. I'm not really sure why I'd use the TP option; in the odd case when I only have a Move, not a Standard?

On the other hand, I think this ability could be expanded with some Grappling options. Maybe as additional damage when you maintain a grapple and choose to inflict unarmed strike damage. (And shouldn't this class get Improved Grapple at some point too?)

Bully
Changing how Conditions work is not a good idea I think. The whole point of Conditions is to standardize them for convenience during play. I'd say that a TP should let you Demoralize as a Swift, because normally you want to spend your Standard actions hitting stuff. On the other hand, you can also pick up the Enforcer feat, since you have everything to use it already.

Also, maybe this should just give you the benefits of the Intimidating Prowess. I'm sure players will want to play this class with low Charisma because they don't actually want to be good at Diplomacy and stuff; they only want Intimidation.

Dirty Fighting
Looks nice.

Improved Bully
Looks good, although I wonder if it should also do something with the penalty that you have when trying to intimidate enemies bigger than you.

Mighty Blow
This should also apply to the Charge action.

Blunt Heavy Objects

Quote:

When a brute deals damage with an

improvised weapon, the improvised weapon takes damage
equal to his level + his Strength modifier (or 1-1/2 times his
Strength bonus if wielded two-handed).

Huh?

Anyway, I'm wondering if level 7 isn't way too late for this ability. Since you want to avoid making people use feats like Catch Off-Guard, I think you should grant this ability at level 1-2 instead. It's not like improvised weapons do all that much damage.

Also, I think improvised weapons already do 1.5 damage if used two-handed, since they basically use stats derived from the weapon they most resemble.

Instead, by level 7, this should start doing fantastical things. You're not bashing someone's head in with a chair, you're using huge ming vases, full beer kegs and so forth. At higher levels you'll be uprooting trees to use as clubs. I think we need to study the Titan Mauler debacle and learn from that.

The idea of weapons getting destroyed by this does intrigue me. Suppose you grant basically the whole text of Catch Off-Guard at level 2, and at 7 you do the following:

Beginning at 7th level, a brute can pick up an improvised weapon a swift action.

The Brute doesn't care that he's destroying the object he's holding, and gladly sacrifices it to batter through his enemy's defences. When the Brute chooses to use this ability, he receives a +2 to hit and damage with the object he's holding. This bonus increases by 1 every three levels after 7th. Regardless of whether the attack hits or misses however, the Brute also rolls damage against the object. If the item becomes Broken, those penalties do not affect the Brute's attacks with it. When it's destroyed however it can no longer be used as improvised weapon.

It needs some polishing. Maybe it would be best to just provide a small table with damage categories for items depending on size/shape/material, as well as typical HP and hardness. But the general idea is that you're constantly picking up new stuff to smash over people's heads because smashing stuff over people's heads also breaks the stuff.

Improved Thrill of a Fight
We'll need to look at this again as ToaF gets revisited. But in general this looks fine.

Shrug It Off
I don't think this'll really work. You want to use it on stuff that really hits very hard, but in that case you're not likely to succeed at the saving throw.

As is, it's going to be useful when you're fighting mooks, because they don't do a lot of damage and you earn a lot of TP for bashing their brains in. But against a big boss monster you'll have trouble meeting the DC and can't afford the TP anyway.

Gang Fighting
I like this.

Rock Throwing
The ability is really cool, but maybe it should come online a few levels earlier. Then, as you get more levels, you can throw increasingly bigger things, and at bigger distances. As it is, you could already throw javelins at level 1 for 1d6 damage with a better range increment. I think this needs to hit harder to be impressive.

Bludgeoning Resistance
I like the idea, but I think it needs to happen much earlier. This class isn't supposed to wear heavy armor, so it needs other ways to stay alive. I think general DR like the Invulnerable Rager barbarian might be in order, with heightened DR against Bludgeoning perhaps. Maybe even some always-on elemental resistances even, even and perhaps especially against Sonic (like anyone cares).

Smash on the Run
Nice ability. But I think it'd be okay at level 10 or so. By level 15 we're already moving beyond High Fantasy into the realm of the totally ludicrously powerful. At this point I expect to be running through stone walls.

I do think this ability has the seed of greatness. It should be expanded to the point where you can just smash through armies of lesser creatures, scenery and some walls, to make charge attacks at main enemies. At level 15 you should be a terrifying juggernaut, that doesn't really pay much attention to "rules" that you can't charge if there are obstacles. If you can smash through those obstacles, you should be able to charge as you like. Note that there's some overlap with Overrun here.

Greater Thrill of a Fight
Ignoring Nauseated is pretty cool. Ignoring Frightened is a bit late by now; paladins were already immune at level 3.

Improved Shrug It Off
In keeping with Improved Evasion, I feel that if you fail the save you should take only half damage. You did spend points after all.

Being able to arbitrarily decide that a successful attack will do half damage at best, that's the kind of brutal power we should have at level 17.

Also, if an attack does no damage, then any rider effects should also not trigger. (I believe this is a general game rule, but reminder text might be in order.)

Bludgeoning Mastery
I like it. But perhaps a similar ability should be applied to improvised weapons some levels earlier, stackable with this one.

Great Brute
Is this text accidentally missing? Or are you still looking for a capstone?

---

I know this looks like a lot of criticism. But I really like the soul of the class. I think however that at the higher levels you've fallen into the "non-magical = realistic" trap. Realism should be restricted to levels 1-5. Have you perhaps read this article?

At higher levels, I think a brute should be able to rip apart city walls with his bare hands, wield oversized (bludgeoning) weapons, and strangle dragons.

Regarding Thrill. The ability's name is good. I'm not so sure if your attempt to get around Rage rounds works so well though. Especially with new feats like Recovered Rage, rage is already a renewable resource.

Recovered Rage:
Recovered Rage

You regain rounds of rage or raging performance when
you drop a foe.

Prerequisite: Rage or raging songt class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you reduce a foe to 0 or fewer hit points while you are raging or using raging song, you regain 1 round of rage or raging song (your choice if you have both abilities), as long as the number of Hit Dice that foe possesses are equal to or greater than 1/2 your character level. You cannot use this feat to regain more rounds of rage or raging song than your daily maximum number of rounds.

Basing Thrill off of temporary hit points is a bit clunky. How about instead something like:

To activate Thrill of a Fight, spend 1 TP as a free action. ToaF lasts 1 round. If you make an attack or are attacked, the duration is extended to the next round. And if you fight in that round as well, the duration continues to extend, etc. If ToaF would end at the end of a round because no attacks were attempted, you may spend a TP to extend it for 1 round. If you lose consciousness, ToaF ends immediately.

Each round ToaF is active, you gain temporary HP equal to your Constitution modifier + half your Brute level. These stack with each other, but disappear when ToaF ends. So if you got a lot of temp HP, you may want to spend TP to keep ToaF going rather than restarting the next round. Note that the temp HP also fill in for some of your lacking defences. Perhaps as an alternative to DR.

While ToaF is active, you gain a +2 morale bonus to Natural AC and saving throws. This bonus increases by 1 at level 6 and every 6 levels thereafter.

As it stands, ToaF doesn't increase Strength nor does it leave you fatigued afterwards. In fact, it stacks very neatly with barbarian Rage. Is that intentional?

I do think it has the advantage of simplicity; no recalculating your combat stats when you activate it, just keep counting temporary HP.

Getting hit isn't so bad, because you're losing a lot of temporary HP. That might make the class very strong at low levels when daily resources are a thing. In big dungeons with lots of small critters, attrition games basically, this class would be extremely potent.

Against big bosses however you'd be in a bit more trouble. If ToaF keeps going as long as attacks are exchanged it does give you some staying power, but you'll need to invest more in to-hit and damage than a barbarian.

---

Also, some feats I want you to think about: Awesome Blow and Penetrating Strike. They look appropriate for this class, but have difficult prerequisites.


I won't be able to respond and make adjustments until later when I get home, but this is all great stuff. Thanks!

Sovereign Court

I like the idea of picking up furniture to use as weaponry, smashing it over people's heads; and then having Improved Unarmed Strike so that you don't accidentally stop being armed. That's good synergy between class features.

Also, I've fought against a giant zombie with rock throwing last week. That was pretty scary. Rock throwing is a cool ability if it's done right.

Another idea: if this class gets good at doing structural damage to buildings (at higher levels), you should never be stuck without improvised weapons to pick up. Doors, ceiling support beams and so forth should be available to you.

Sovereign Court

Also: the class needs support for using the bodies of helpless creatures as improvised weapons. At later levels, maybe even creatures that aren't helpless. You should be able to do this.

Sczarni

I definitely like that this is sort of a whole class built around what the Monk of the Empty Hand is trying to do. Although I would hope that at some point, he also gets the ability to straight up pick up his enemies and hurl them at each other. I would treat it as the Enemy Hammer spell, except it's not a spell. Maybe add a CMB roll in there, to acknowledge the existence of creatures too big and tough to just toss around.

Thrill of the Fight is still a little awkward, though. I appreciate that you want to try something new and not base it on fixed rounds, but tying the duration to TempHP is just asking for horribly unpredictable durations. Either the monsters focus on the Brute and burn through his TempHP every round, making it impossible for him to maintain it, or they focus on someone else and the Brute has his bonuses the entire combat, but it doesn't matter because the bonuses are all defensive in nature and nobody's attacking him.


Or it's a mix of both. I see the brute as preferring to fight mooks, but he can pull out a little extra to face the villain for a bit. The mechanics still need work.

Sovereign Court

It needs some way of fighting bosses, because that's a fairly common thing in the game. Lots of adventures end with a boss fight, and no class should feel that they're actually bad at the climax of the adventure.

But it's perfectly fine if you need to use different tactics/abilities in a boss fight than against mooks.


ASCALAPHUS

Weapon proficiencies
As for earth breaker, I am sticking to crb ONLY. For the other two, they kind of fit but I'm not digging the chains and that they have special qualities.

Brawler
I agree that more bad asses should be able to fist fight. No one wants to spend a feat on it I guess. I kept the progression slow in case too many things all thrown in ended up going overboard on the power level. Well see how things look later.

Improvised weaponry
I agree.

Thrill of a fight
How things fit on the page is something I will fix when things are looking more complete. For now, while they are changing in size, and I still don't have an intro written out, I will have to hold off.
I did have a way to use intimidate to regain thrill, but it was starting to look to easy to regain so I scrapped it. There is an investigator archetype that lets the point be regained with a natural 20 on certain skills. I thought about stealing that.
You're I right that this temp hp shield could potentially be lost really fast. It's been a hole in things for a while, and I still don't have a great solution without resorting to something that basically looks like a re flavored rage.

Brute force
I can cut back to no TP use. That was an after thought. When this was originally written in 08, combat maneuvers were strength checks, so this was a very juicy ability. I'm going to leave grappling out of the features because it would be very easy to grab a feat for it.

Bully
I basically wanted the brute to have a unique use for intimidate. Don't really care what it is. This one can be cut too. What you see is probably my third attempt.

Dirty fighting
I still want to look at this one, see if I can shorten it up.

Imp bully
Suggestion?

Mighty blow
I'll think about it. I've become leery of abilities that apply to all charges because of stupid cheesy pounce. I can either keep it short and sweet or stat to complicate it. I prefer short and sweet, and this class is mostly not.
Design note: one of the things I have been implementing into classes as of late is that when the character would get a BAB of 6 or 11 and sometimes 16, he also gains new new ways to bridge the gap between full attacks and standard action attack. There is no across the board design, but I think a warrior that takes one attack when he could take two or more should get a bonus of some kind.

Blunt heavy object
I like all of your thoughts on. One thing though, is that with the number of abilities you suggest moving down in level, I'm not going to know where to squeeze them in, or what to get rid of.

Impr/gear thrill of a fight
What if effects like the ones I describe are instead downgraded by a step? Fear effect have three levels, and eventually even panicked is reduced to mere shaken. You mention the paladin, and her ability to ignore all fear. Well, that is a special paladin ability, and I'm ok with other warriors still being afraid.

Shrug it off
I like this one thematically, but of my original 2008 abilities, this is the one I am the least attached to. Especially it TOAF gets sorted out.

Gang fighting
This was inspired by Excaliburproxy's mention of Fezzig from princess bride.

Rock throwing
The damage on rock throwing is based on the giant ability, and what damage they normally inflict. If the brute is eventually able to pick up larger improvised weapons, I guess he should eventually be picking up larger rocks. Note that rock throwing works with mighty blow to increase damage.

Bludgeoning resistance
Yeah, its lame. Its a recent ability, not very inspired.

Improved shrug it off
The reason I didn't do half on a failed save is that there is no restriction on the ability, such as hoe evasion has reflex saves. Don't know what to do with this one.

Bludgeoning mastery
I thought of that same thing ages ago and didn't use it. I guess I could work it into the blunt heavy objects chain. Its funny to me that you are wanting blunt heavy objects to go back to its 2008 form!

The capstone does not exist yet. It has to feel right.

I also would like the brute to be able to strangle dragons. Maybe an improved brawler ability allows him to initiate a grapple as a free action when he crits with an unarmed strike?

Yes, TOAF stacks with rage. This is not desired, and it is a loophole that appeared between he 2008 version and the PF revamp. Your concept of gaining temps each round is pretty much in line with the next fix I have been kicking around in my head. Except in my version the temps don't stack. I want the temps to be a shield, but not make him immune to injury.

We can put awesome blow at a higher level when some of those abilities are lowered in level.

I'm sure I missed some stuff. Sorry. I will get to writing in a few hours.


There's an updated version up. There were too many changes suggested to get them all in a single pass. Go ahead, tear it up.

My kids are watching Hell Boy, and I'm thinking there's got to be a way to do a gun-toting version of the brute. :)

Sovereign Court

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

ASCALAPHUS

Weapon proficiencies
As for earth breaker, I am sticking to crb ONLY. For the other two, they kind of fit but I'm not digging the chains and that they have special qualities.

Come to think of it, I do think spiked chains make a pretty brutish weapon.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Brawler
I agree that more bad asses should be able to fist fight. No one wants to spend a feat on it I guess. I kept the progression slow in case too many things all thrown in ended up going overboard on the power level. Well see how things look later.

Fair enough. I suppose it's okay that unarmed strike doesn't go entirely overboard; it's more a backup weapon, after hammers and improvised weapons. But given the tendency to accidentally smash your own weapons, it's good to have.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Thrill of a fight
How things fit on the page is something I will fix when things are looking more complete. For now, while they are changing in size, and I still don't have an intro written out, I will have to hold off.
I did have a way to use intimidate to regain thrill, but it was starting to look to easy to regain so I scrapped it. There is an investigator archetype that lets the point be regained with a natural 20 on certain skills. I thought about stealing that.
You're I right that this temp hp shield could potentially be lost really fast. It's been a hole in things for a while, and I still don't have a great solution without resorting to something that basically looks like a re flavored rage.

Natural 20 seems okay. I do expect a lot of Brutes to pick up the Enforcer feat, but they were probably going to do that anyway. Since the Sap is a decent weapon.

Re: the temp HP shield. I think it looks rather clunky. Gaining temp HP in response to hitting or being hit sounds to me like it's very error-prone. And it's very close to just being DR, too.

What I like about my proposal, about stackable temp HP, is that it motivates you to constantly be in combat. If you've had a couple of good rounds and built up spare temp HP, you really don't want to spend a round not attacking or getting attacked. The mechanic motivates you to seek melee combat with the enemy urgently.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Brute force
I can cut back to no TP use. That was an after thought. When this was originally written in 08, combat maneuvers were strength checks, so this was a very juicy ability. I'm going to leave grappling out of the features because it would be very easy to grab a feat for it.

This looks good now.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Bully
I basically wanted the brute to have a unique use for intimidate. Don't really care what it is. This one can be cut too. What you see is probably my third attempt.

Looks good.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Dirty fighting
I still want to look at this one, see if I can shorten it up.

This is indeed still a little bit clunky. As I read it right now, if I attack in the surprise round and score a hit against a flat-footed enemy, I get to use DF in round 1. Then if I hit again in round 1, I can use DF in round 2 as well. And then if I hit again in round 2, I get to DF again in round 3.

That's actually a pretty cool mechanic, because it looks like a brute hammering away at an enemy. It's also useful for boss fights, because those are supposedly the only creatures that can continue surviving this for more than a couple of rounds. I think the Thrill option could be insane with sneak attackers or Bravos though. This power in general has crazy teamwork potential.

I think this power might be strong enough to merit breaking it up a bit; the continuation clause might need to be moved to a higher level perhaps. Depending on what happens to other class features of course.

aside on writing style:

I think there's the opportunity to write these abilities in a neat format: a class ability followed by a Thrill, a sort of kicker that amps up the ability. The idea being that the Brute enjoys using his class features and that enables him to kick his fighting into overdrive. Example:


Dirty Fighting (Ex):
A brute excels in an unfair fight and presses his advantage. Beginning a 3rd level, he gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls and his CMB against enemies denied their Dexterity bonus to AC and against those that are shaken, frightened, or panicked. At 6th level and every six levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1.

If a brute succeeds on an attack or combat maneuver against an enemy while using this bonus, he continues to gain the bonus to attacks or combat maneuvers made against the enemy until his next turn is finished, even if the enemy is no longer denied it's Dexterity bonus to AC, shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Thrill: The brute can spend a thrill point as a swift action. If he does so, he chooses an enemy he gains this bonus against. If he succeeds on an attack or combat maneuver he makes against that enemy before the end of his turn, the enemy becomes loses it's Dexterity bonus to AC for 1 round.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Imp bully
Suggestion?

I'd rephrase it a teensy bit to:


Improved Bully (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a Brute can use the Intimidate skill to demoralize an enemy as a move action.

When a Brute uses Intimidate to demoralize an enemy with at least 4 hit dice less than his own, he can also cause the Shaken condition to aggravate to Frightened.

Thrill: spend 1 TP to ignore the +4DC penalty for trying to demoralize an enemy that's bigger than you.

I moved intimidating weaker enemies to a separate paragraph so that you can also do that when demoralizing as something other than a move action, such as a Gang Fighting, Standard Action demoralize, Dazzling Display or Enforcer feat.

I wouldn't allow demoralizing enemies with too many HD, because the skill check isn't really all that hard, and scaring away the BBEG on an average skill roll.. shouldn't happen. However, being able to make a giant nervous is perfectly okay.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Mighty blow
I'll think about it. I've become leery of abilities that apply to all charges because of stupid cheesy pounce. I can either keep it short and sweet or stat to complicate it. I prefer short and sweet, and this class is mostly not.
Design note: one of the things I have been implementing into classes as of late is that when the character would get a BAB of 6 or 11 and sometimes 16, he also gains new new ways to bridge the gap between full attacks and standard action attack. There is no across the board design, but I think a warrior that takes one attack when he could take two or more should get a bonus of some kind.

Pounce is indeed not intended, but there'll probably be more and more ways of doing it as books get released. Pummeling Style is something that's just going to happen to people that play this class, it's a perfect fit.

I guess this class ability is more like original Vital Strike: intended as a consolation prize for situations where you have to move before attacking, but don't want to (or can't) Charge. Especially since ToaF looks like it'll reward being constantly in combat, this is important. You might run out of adjacent enemies after all.

I do think it might need careful wording so that it can be combined with other abilities like Awesome Blow. Referring to the "attack action" can cause some trouble (see Vital Strike). Maybe it's better to use:

Mighty Blow (Ex): Beginning at 6th level, when a Brute makes a single attack after using a Move action to move, he adds 1/2 his Brute level as a bonus to the damage roll.

I think that'll still let you use various odd abilities that make a single attack without using the standard attack action.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Blunt heavy object
I like all of your thoughts on. One thing though, is that with the number of abilities you suggest moving down in level, I'm not going to know where to squeeze them in, or what to get rid of.

I like the new level 3 Blunt Heavy Objects. Although it should probably add that picking up those objects does/doesn't provoke AoOs.

The new Improved version is terrifying. Some notes:
- Does the damage to the object bypass its hardness? Probably shouldn't. Must check if that'll break the object fast enough howeverl.
- Spending Thrill to negate Dex to AC as a Swift means you can't both pick up a weapon and negate Dex in the same round. That might be a fair compromise however.
- I think the dazing option is too good. If you use a lot of fragile objects, that's a lot of dazing threats. Compared to other feats that can cause dazing, I think it's too good.

I do think giving it that enhancement bonus is a good move, although it should probably get an explicit note that this enhancement bonus can bypass DR. The idea of bashing a werewolf's head in with a Ming vase appeals to me. Maybe it should be possible to raise the enhancement bonus as a Thrill, rather than bypassing Dex to AC, since you can already do that with Dirty Fighting and Catch Off-Guard.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Impr/gear thrill of a fight
What if effects like the ones I describe are instead downgraded by a step? Fear effect have three levels, and eventually even panicked is reduced to mere shaken. You mention the paladin, and her ability to ignore all fear. Well, that is a special paladin ability, and I'm ok with other warriors still being afraid.

Yeah, I'm not saying the Brute should be immune to fear outright, just that being immune to Frightened isn't quite awesome enough for a level 17 ability, considering how easy it is for the Paladin.

I do think it should be more clear what ignoring a condition means. If you're ignoring the Shaken condition, can it still be upgraded to Frightened? Or can you only be affected by things that move you from normal to Frightened directly.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Shrug it off
I like this one thematically, but of my original 2008 abilities, this is the one I am the least attached to. Especially it TOAF gets sorted out.

I noticed it's not currently in the PDF.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Gang fighting
This was inspired by Excaliburproxy's mention of Fezzig from princess bride.

I think the ability is perfect as it is right now.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Rock throwing
The damage on rock throwing is based on the giant ability, and what damage they normally inflict. If the brute is eventually able to pick up larger improvised weapons, I guess he should eventually be picking up larger rocks. Note that rock throwing works with mighty blow to increase damage.

I think it's a bit better now, although the language needs polishing.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Bludgeoning resistance
Yeah, its lame. Its a recent ability, not very inspired.

We'll look at that later, once ToaF is sorted out.

Re: Greater Blunt Heavy Objects: looks nice. But we still need an ability to wield creatures as weapons. Probably needs interaction with grapple rules if you want to use non-helpless creatures. That's fine; even using unconscious creatures should be quite fun.

Note that NPC brutes using unconscious PCs as weapons will still damage them, thus this is a really nasty attack form.

Re: Awesome Blow: copied from the Brawler? I see it's had language added so that it works with Mighty Blow.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Bludgeoning mastery
I thought of that same thing ages ago and didn't use it. I guess I could work it into the blunt heavy objects chain. Its funny to me that you are wanting blunt heavy objects to go back to its 2008 form!

On second thought, this might need more work. See, Improvized Weapon Mastery also expands the crit range of improvized weapons, and wouldn't stack with this one.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


The capstone does not exist yet. It has to feel right.

Coming up with capstones is hard.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


I also would like the brute to be able to strangle dragons. Maybe an improved brawler ability allows him to initiate a grapple as a free action when he crits with an unarmed strike?

Perhaps. You'd also need to get Improved Grapple then. I think it's probably best to add an option for using helpless creatures as improvised weapons, and then add language on also using pinned creatures. Of course, since this is grappling, writing clear rules will take some concentration. Since so many things are already done in-class, I think you can afford Grapple feats if you want them.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


Yes, TOAF stacks with rage. This is not desired, and it is a loophole that appeared between he 2008 version and the PF revamp. Your concept of gaining temps each round is pretty much in line with the next fix I have been kicking around in my head. Except in my version the temps don't stack. I want the temps to be a shield, but not make him immune to injury.

As I wrote above, I like the idea of actually building up a thrill. But since they dissipate quickly if you aren't constantly fighting, it makes you very aggressive in combat.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:


We can put awesome blow at a higher level when some of those abilities are lowered in level.

I'm sure I missed some stuff. Sorry. I will get to writing in a few hours.

Hey, these things take several revisions to get right. The Bravo turned out quite nicely after about 8 of them :)

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