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Given some of the more egregious problems with the Mythic Rules have made Mythic almost unplayable for the AP after the 3rd book, I started thinking of ways that Mythic could be brought into better functionality. Part of the problem lies with some over-powered Feats that enhance existing non-Mythic Feats, as well as some spells that likewise become overpowered once they become Mythic.
However, we can't easily just remove these "re-feats" (as I call them) because there is a general lack of Mythic Feats that are unique to Mythic itself. Likewise, there are only nine Mythic Spells that are not "enhanced" spells in the primary Mythic rulebook, and I personally think that Mythic Magic should be unique to Mythic itself. (Indeed, I feel any Mythic character, no matter what class, should be able to cast a Mythic Spell if they chose the Mythic Spell feat or path ability. It would make all Mythic characters more versatile and could allow fighters or rogues the chance to utilize some mythic magic without needing spellcasting levels.)
Anyway, I did come up with a couple ideas, and thought we could post other ideas here for Spells and Feats.
Possible optional rule: Mythic Feats can be used twice per tier per day (thus starting with two uses at Tier 1, up to 20 uses at Tier 10).
Mythic Feats:
Arrow/Hail Storm (Tier 1): Someone with this Mythic Feat can fire an arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling stone into the air and designate a target. That target and everyone within 10 feet of that target will take 1d8 damage per Mythic Tier as a volley of arrows, bolts, or stones fall from the air. If the Mythic character spends a point of Mythic, the damage penetrates all forms of Damage Reduction.
Improved Arrow/Hail Storm (Tier 3): Prerequisite - Arrow/Hail Storm. This replicates the previous Feat but also increases the radius to 10 feet per tier (thus starting at 30 feet radius). Otherwise it is identical to the original Mythic Feat.
Mighty Blow (Tier 1): Someone with this Mythic Feat can designate one attack to be a Mighty Blow. If this attack hits, the enemy must immediately make a Fortitude Check at DC 15 plus twice the character's Tier (thus starting at DC 17) or be knocked back 10 feet. If the player spends a point of Mythic, the foe must also make a Reflex Save to avoid being knocked off their feet by the attack (same DC). No further attacks can be made on the target.
Improved Mighty Blow (Tier 3): Prerequisite - Mighty Blow. This replicates the previous Feat but affects all enemies within the Mythic character's reach (including reach weapons). If an enemy is within the minimum range, they are unaffected.
Stunning Attack (Tier 1): If the character successfully attacks a Flatfooted character during the Surprise Round, the target must make a Fortitude Save (DC of the damage taken in the surprise attack) or will remain flatfooted and be unable to attack in the next round.
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Thoughts?
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Great idea Tangent!
i'll give the tier 1 feats a try, i had planned to go full on mythic with RoW however i backed off a bit after handing out that first tier we'll give em a whirl when we play tomorrow.
I do like the idea of Mythic feats being different actions in combat, especially for melee characters (though, Mythic seems to flip caster-martial disparity on its head a bit).
A feat to "parry" a spell could be a lot of fun. It could be similar to the Duelist's Parry class ability, but instead of making an attack that has to beat their attack, it has to beat the spell's DC or something like that. Being able to bat aside fireballs would be sweet, and an improvement to it could be that a successful parry redirects the spell.
There are a lot of fun things you can do with the Mythic ruleset. I think really stressing how much a character can feasibly do by making a lot of things into swift or immediate actions can help with some of the action economy issues (extra move and standard actions can almost always be abused; swift and immediate not as much). I also think stressing the mythic nature of the abilities, as in mythological, as in being able to take on dudes who literally carry the sky above their heads is also fun.
Your Mighty Blow ability, for example, could knock people back an additional 10 feet per mythic point pumped into the attack...
Mythic spells, also, should do crazy things. Like create planets. Or sunder continents. Create an entirely new species (using the race builder from ARG). Stuff like that, which is the basis of myths and legends in the real world. What's Atlantis? Some wizard casting MYTHIC SUNDER and sinking a continent that displeased him.
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Nice idea, but your suggested feats would be better as path abilities and need some form of attack roll/DC.
Allowing non-casters access to spellcasting can be a slippery slope, the game as written, already allows access to spellcasting though a variety of ways. Magic items are always an option, and of course a legendary item could provide access to spellcasting.
You could always create specific new path abilities to allow martial characters access to supernatural abilities, but I would advise against making them spells (the interactions are unfavorable).
Adding mythic only spells to the list of mythic spellcasting choices (spells you can only cast with mythic power) could be a nice idea.
Not really a fan of daily limits on feats, but that is very much a personal opinion.
Arrow Storm seems a bit good, especially since it does not allow a saving throw or require an attack roll. It is still way better than Fistful of Daggers (a terrible tier 6 ability), maybe just try to make it into a ranged version of Sweeping Strike (a better tier 6 ability). Not a fan of the ability damage scaling irrelevant of the weapon, especially since the damage
Mighty Blow kinda already exists in the Blowback champion ability.
Stunning attack seems rather circumstantial.
If you look through the options for mythic characters, there are plenty, but the straight damage/ power increases seem just too good.
I'd rather not have these be Mythic Path Abilities for one reason: I want Mythic Feats that are unique to Mythic, not just an "enhanced" Feat or the like. Likewise with Mythic Spells - and this is why I think Mythic Spells should be separate from regular spells, so that anyone who takes the Mythic Feat or Path Ability for Mythic Magic should be able to use these spells.
As for the damage of Arrow/Hail Storm, I figure 1d8 damage per tier works well. Though perhaps rather than a limited number per day, only allow Mythic Feats to be used once per battle (like certain Barbarian Rage Abilities). And a Tier 3 and Tier 6 Feat could allow Mythic Characters to use it twice or three times a battle if they wanted to use up Feats for that.
"C'mon Charlie, Bump it" - Liam McPoyle, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
making it easier to find since its been a couple days:)
I've not done too much on this as my Mythic Adventures book is an hour's drive away (each way) at a friend's house, and scanning through the PDF can be tedious.
That said, how do people envision the Mythic spells? I mean, the lowest of the "pure" Mythic spells (ie, ones that came in the MA book) is a 2nd level spell.
So then, should Mythic Magic start off with 1st Tier Spells being the equivalence of 2nd level spells, and just keep them one step above (up until 9th Tier)? I mean, the Meta-Feat Ascendant Spell is 5 spell levels higher (thus Mythic Magic Missile would cost a non-Mythic player a 6th level slot).
But I honestly can't see Mythic spells being that over-powered all at once. Especially when you consider you can have a Mythic 1st level character. A 1st level character casting 6th level spells would be... over the top. He'd be killed easily by any foe normally meant for a 6th level spell, but that level magic is way too overblown for even CR 4 enemies.
So. Thoughts?
Here's a Defensive Mythic Feat. Thought of it being Tier 3, but it seems a bit overpowered for that low a tier.
Precognitive Defense (Tier 6) - The Mythic character averts all damage taken in a round after it's rolled but in doing so he sacrifices all of his/her next action (including swift, immediate, standard, and move actions) and cannot be affected by the Marshal Advance or Decisive Strike abilities for two rounds.
Defenses should start at tier 1. It doesn't take anything more than dual initiative and mythic power attack to overwhelm anyone's hp and those could be had by a CR1 creature.
Or force mythic tiers/ranks to provide defensive capabilities and build them into the levels. I'm also wondering if having separate paths helps or hurts the system.
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Here's a Defensive Mythic Feat. Thought of it being Tier 3, but it seems a bit overpowered for that low a tier.
Precognitive Defense (Tier 6) - The Mythic character averts all damage taken in a round after it's rolled but in doing so he sacrifices all of his/her next action (including swift, immediate, standard, and move actions) and cannot be affected by the Marshal Advance or Decisive Strike abilities for two rounds.
Really not a fan of blanket immunities like that, not just in this case, but even when it comes to fire resistance.
How about this:( I am terrible with names)
Toughen Up (Tier 1): As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power, to enter state of total defense (see CRB) until the end of your next turn. Until this stance ends, you gain temporary hit points equal to your mythic tier tier x character level (hit die). Taking any other actions (attacks of opportunity, immediate actions) ends the benefits of this effect, but does not allow standard or full round actions in your next turn.
Improved Toughen Up (Tier 3):When you use Toughen Up, allies within 5 feet can benefit form your resilience. Your allies receive the benefits of cover and receive half your temporary hit points. You can extend the effect of Toughen Up for a second round.
Greater Toughen Up: (Tier 6) If your temporary hit points are depleted by an attack, you can opt to end the effects of Toughen Up immediately, and make a melee or ranged attack against your attacker. You can add your tier to the attack and damage rolls of this attack.
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Double post:
Actually I was hoping for a mythic power to give a permanent enhancement bonus to a number of stats, this would give the player more freedom when it comes to magic items.
Maybe something like this:
Tier 1 Universal
Natural Enhancement(Su): A character with this ability gains an enhancement bonus equal to his half his mythic tier (at least +1) to a maximum enhancement bonus of +2 to all his ability scores.
Tier 3 Universal:
Improved Natural Enhancement(Su): Your maximum bonus from Natural Enhancement increases to +4.
Tier 6 Universal:
Greater Natural Enhancement(Su): Your maximum bonus from Natural Enhancement increases to +6 (to account for the mythic feat Mythic Paragon) .
Tier 1 Universal:
Resistance(Su): You gain a resistance bonus on saving throws equal to half your tier. In addition whenever you use your surge to add to a saving throw, you can choose to reroll the original saving throw once the surge die is rolled.
Tier 1 Universal:
Deflection(Su): You gain a resistance bonus on saving throws equal to half your tier. As an immediate action, you can expend one use of mythic power to double this bonus until the end of your next turn.
Tier 1 Universal:
Natural Armor(Su): You gain an enhancement bonus to your natural armor equal to half your tier.
As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to add your entire natural armor bonus to your touch AC.
Got another one:
Precision Attack: The Mythic character is able to make a ranged attack using precision damage as if flanking an object if the target has an enemy on the other side and would be considered flanking if used with a reach weapon. The maximum range of the flanking attack is 10 feet per tier.
(Thus, for example, a Tier 2 character could make a Precision attack if 20 feet away from an enemy and has a "flanking" ally on the other side of that foe.)
You mean the House Rules section which no one playing Wrath of the Righteous, the one AP that actually uses Mythic, would view? Given how broken Mythic makes the AP, and the fact that Mythic Feats (or more specifically feat-enhancing Mythic Feats) are a significant part of that brokenness, I chose this for the Fixing Mythic Feats thread specifically so that people playing this AP could utilize them and even tell me how it worked or what they thought.
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Yeah, I agree with Tangent here, before we had the adventure path, plenty of playtesters were worried about the effect of adding the mythic abilities to even moderately competent characters.
Maxtrixdragon and plenty of other playtesters have pointed this out time and time again in the playtest (magnuskn started arguing against rocket tag damage numbers when pathfinder was still in beta).
But of course, without the context of a campaign, all our worries could have been unfounded.
Of course we were wrong, I think at this point, it is pretty clear, that the way adventures are designed (some encounters under party level, some at the level, some higher CR encounters) doesn’t work with mythic characters (stamina among other things isn’t that much of an issue).
The extremely good campaign traits, are another factor that increases overall power.
So this is pretty much the only available context for all things mythic, and new GMs will come here looking for help. At this point I can’t recommend anyone to run the adventure as written. The developers have admitted, that they underestimated mythic characters, it happened now we have to deal with it.
At this point, there are 3 ways to fix this:
- Change all the enemies to provide a proper challenge
- Change the mythic abilities players can access
- Change a number of encounters in the campaign
Well n1 isn’t likely to change this loathsome table at this point in time, to many monster stats have already been published at this point. And while most GMs can improve them with relative ease by using a small number of templates. That trick doesn’t quite work for mythic games.
Nerving some of the glaringly obvious mythic problems would be far easier, and this is pretty much what Tangent started here. Call it intellectual self defense, but you only talk about the problems for a certain amount of time. This is far more useful.
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Well, I'll just say this and be done with it. Doing a search for "mythic" over in the house rules forum brings back 10 pages worth of results, so it's a little ingenuous to suggest that this is the only forum that might have interest in your proposals. I don't think every GM using mythic rules is running WotR. At the very least, you might to post a link to this topic over there, because GMs using the mythic rules in other campaigns might be running into the same issues that WotR is having, and would benefit from your ideas. That's all, keep up the good work.
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Well, I'll just say this and be done with it. Doing a search for "mythic" over in the house rules forum brings back 10 pages worth of results, so it's a little ingenuous to suggest that this is the only forum that might have interest in your proposals. I don't think every GM using mythic rules is running WotR. At the very least, you might to post a link to this topic over there, because GMs using the mythic rules in other campaigns might be running into the same issues that WotR is having, and would benefit from your ideas. That's all, keep up the good work.
Sorry if I have been a bit harsh, but this damn topic (the AP) is a pretty damn tough nut to crack, and since many of the frequent complainers her are GMs running the adventure... we are reminded frequently about the shortcomings.
Frankly, at this point I am this close to start a pedition for an errata. 2-3 pages of changes (mostly to feats and path abilities) would be sufficient to make the AP playable (or at least just as underpowered as the other APs..)
Resist Strike - The Mythic character can spend a point of Mythic as an Immediate Action to reduce the amount of damage suffered by one melee or ranged physical attack. The character takes 20% less damage from the blow unless the strike is by an Epic weapon or attack. This Feat has no effect on energy damage.
Magical Inhibition - The Mythic character can spend a point of Mythic to reduce damage taken by magic or energy sources. The character takes 20% less damage from non-Mythic spells or energy sources, or 10% less from Mythic Spells or Mythic energy effects.
Mythic Shield - The Mythic character can spend a point of Mythic to increase his or her armor class by +1 for each two Tiers. This effect lasts until the start of the character's next round.
Oh, I forgot to add these bits (too late to edit):
Precision Shot and Mythic Shield are Tier 1 Mythic Feats.
Resist Strike and Magical Inhibition are Tier 3 Mythic Feats.
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one of the biggest problems in my game of wrath was not the feats. people sometimes forgot they even got mythic feats. for me it was the shear number of resources they have. by the last book the group has 23 mythic points that refreshes once per hour and again on a full rest, and with abilities like Wild Arcana and Inspired spell the group can cast almost 30 9th level spells a day and don't need to prepare the bulk of them. not to mention the fact the paladin was untouchable with an AC just over 80 from an insane CHR score and feats like Osyluth guile mixed with bastion of good as well as the cleric's damn undetectable weapon while wearing a ring of invisibility so i cant target the healer who can caste brealth of life with his channel energy. the group has an insane damage per turn and plenty of AOE abilities that most enemies can not match. most damage done to the party is aura effects or a lucky shot.
one of the biggest problems in my game of wrath was not the feats. people sometimes forgot they even got mythic feats. for me it was the shear number of resources they have. by the last book the group has 23 mythic points that refreshes once per hour and again on a full rest...
Just want to make sure your aware its one point per hour not all of the mythic points every hour...
I completely agree with you mythic is tough and the higher Tier they get the stronger they get but with all of that said its still a game. Find a way to wrangle your cats and have fun!
I agree with Sebastian Hirsch
At this point, there are 3 ways to fix this:
- Change all the enemies to provide a proper challenge
- Change the mythic abilities players can access
- Change a number of encounters in the campaign
I've been upgrading the enemies and adding more encounters. As far as mythic abilities players can access, I just make sure everyone in my group is aware that a balance needs to be made.
As an example my current concern is Mythic Forge Ring
trying to get my friendly neighborhood wizard to not build 20 of these when he gets the opportunity.