New Iconics Desexed

[Alex Smith 908]

I can't possibly agree with that. How do the silly hat and the huge open robes stay on? If you tap her head will she fall over? How does she walk let alone go through doorways? The hat and robes are like 40k puldrons level of impractical.

[Berik]

I really don't see the new iconics as being 'desexed' at all really. Kess is showing plenty of skin. Enora is wearing robes but she appears to be showing a fair amount of cleavage, she just hasn't posed to show that off. Jirelle is covered up, but I actually think she's one of the most appealing iconics yet. And to my mind has an ideal 'slightly cocky swashbuckler' expression.

(It's a little off topic, but I really like the art for the ACG iconics in general. The idea that the mash-up class iconics are themselves seemingly inspired by the two iconics that make up the mash-up class is a lot of fun. It's like we're seeing a second generation of iconics. :D )

[Lord Fyre]

pres man wrote:

Right, because adventurers are worried about appearing "empowered" rather than just you know protecting their lives.

*Dying of a gut wound* "I might not live, but I definitely looked tough not doing it."

How about the crazy idea that characters dress appropriate for their life style and current situation and not worry about appearing "sexualized" or "empowered"?

You know, that is not actually true. This is the Realism vs. Fantasy again.

In Pathfinder we already have abstractions like Hit Points and generalized damage. Another example Armor Class is an abstract number.

It follows then that -even without magic- a chainmail bikini is exactly as protective as a full suit. So, neither Amiri nor Kess are in any more danger of injury or death for the midriff design of their armor.

Counterwise, if you want Pathfinder more "realistic" then you also need to research how Medieval Magic actually worked (at least as was believed by the people at the time).

[Ceres Cato]

What if it's an ENCHANTED chainmail bikini? If magic is involved, nearly EVERYTHING is possible. Even a thong that is as protective as plate mail.

[Lord Fyre]

Ceres Cato wrote:

What if it's an ENCHANTED chainmail bikini? If magic is involved, nearly EVERYTHING is possible. Even a thong that is as protective as plate mail.

That is why I clearly specified -even without magic- above.

The point is - we are playing an imaginary game with abstract combat systems.

[Azten]

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

Count me as a fan of the epilepsy inducing gear/buckles/straps/pouches/bags/hammock sticks/javelins/headgear/knives/potion bottles/familiars.

Murder hobos gots to be prepped.

It is accurate of some actual character sheets I've seen though...

[Ceres Cato]

Lord Fyre wrote:

Ceres Cato wrote:

What if it's an ENCHANTED chainmail bikini? If magic is involved, nearly EVERYTHING is possible. Even a thong that is as protective as plate mail.

That is why I clearly specified -even without magic- above.

The point is - we are playing an imaginary game with abstract combat systems.

That was a joke. I'm all on your side regarding this matter.

[pres man]

"Nuh-uh! Fantasy! Magic!"

*yawn*

Yes, female characters should be dressed in stupid outfits that don't make sense because of magic and fantasy. Evidently magic and fantasy stuff doesn't work on males unless they want to run around and look like someone off of the Jersey Shore. Whatever.

[TanithT]

Lord Fyre wrote:

It follows then that -even without magic- a chainmail bikini is exactly as protective as a full suit. So, neither Amiri nor Kess are in any more danger of injury or death for the midriff design of their armor.

*facepalm* There is also such a thing as suspension of disbelief, and not systematically making an entire gender feel that their stories and their ability to have adventures is being gimped just so that the other gender can enjoy looking at them more. It's stupid to dress like a porn star while fighting goblins, and it's the "stupid" and "gimped" part people are objecting to. Not the sex part.

Here's a blog that explains a little about what that feels like.

Let me spell this out. If men can have the cool armor and good adventuring gear, the kind that actually protects you and looks badass without the stupid peek-a-boo windows, then women can have it too. In fact, they had better. When was the last time you went hiking through the wilderness in your skivvies?

If people who like to look at women can have sexy eye candy in the game, which is a public resource that belongs to people of all genders and orientations, then people who like to look at men get equal fanservice. And I don't just mean Conan-esque male power fantasies with muscles showing, I mean hot come-hither elfboys making out with other hot elfboys and men showing their sexy bodies in passive or submissive positions as objects of gaze.

If you find yourself backpedaling and saying that you don't want this stuff in your game, try to remember it is not only YOUR game. If you want your flavor of eye candy in it, then other people can reasonably expect theirs, too. It is not fair to demand that only you and people exactly like you should get catered to. That's why Paizo has iconics of all races, genders and orientations - it's important for everyone to feel like the game is for them, and not the exclusive property of white, cisgendered heterosexual male heroes.

Quote:

Counterwise, if you want Pathfinder more "realistic" then you also need to research how Medieval Magic actually worked (at least as was believed by the people at the time).

That makes no sense at all, since "Medieval Magic" in the real world didn't work and the Pathfinder magic system is not based on what people believed about magic in any time period in the real world.

I think you are confusing "compelling and believable stories and characters" with "realistic". They are very different things.

[Ceres Cato]

But you can have sexy robes! And everyday clothing!

[Belazoar]

Ceres Cato wrote:

What if it's an ENCHANTED chainmail bikini? If magic is involved, nearly EVERYTHING is possible. Even a thong that is as protective as plate mail.

I dont know about the thong, but you'd hard-pressed to get me to wear any metal armor in a world of magic, unless it was mithril and enchanted for comfort.

I don't have a problem with any of the artwork, but there cases to be made for being over-dressed as much as under. For example, Jirelle looks awesome but i doubt anyone would wear that outfit on a typical day in that part of the world. Especially at sea.

As much as you can say more clothing and armor is better try imagining taking a 40 mile hike (adventure) in that stuff. I'm pretty sure if i started in full plate I'd have tossed most of it on the first day. Metal would be the hottest thing to wear in the heat and coldest in the cold.

On the other hand,if I was preparing to defend a castle/town I'd deifinately be looking to get my hands on some steel protection.

And we haven't taken into consideration cultural influences, which can run from full body cover to only a loin-cloth regardless of gender.

Which makes most criticism, IMO, less objective and a lot more arbitrary.

[TanithT]

Ceres Cato wrote:

But you can have sexy robes! And everyday clothing!

On occasions that it makes sense, both in terms of the plot and the situation, for a character to be naked or scantily dressed, it's not stupid to depict them that way.

This said, Pathfinder is an adventuring game where you are supposed to be heroically going out and doing stuff. How many legitimate adventuring scenarios are you going to find where it makes sense for people to be in their underwear?

There are some, but it's not a trope you want to overuse just for the fanservice value. And when you use it, everyone should be showing it. Not just the women.

[Andrew R]

Belazoar wrote:

Ceres Cato wrote:

What if it's an ENCHANTED chainmail bikini? If magic is involved, nearly EVERYTHING is possible. Even a thong that is as protective as plate mail.

I dont know about the thong, but you'd hard-pressed to get me to wear any metal armor in a world of magic, unless it was mithril and enchanted for comfort.

I don't have a problem with any of the artwork, but there cases to be made for being over-dressed as much as under. For example, Jirelle looks awesome but i doubt anyone would wear that outfit on a typical day in that part of the world. Especially at sea.

As much as you can say more clothing and armor is better try imagining taking a 40 mile hike (adventure) in that stuff. I'm pretty sure if i started in full plate I'd have tossed most of it on the first day. Metal would be the hottest thing to wear in the heat and coldest in the cold.

On the other hand,if I was preparing to defend a castle/town I'd deifinately be looking to get my hands on some steel protection.

And we haven't taken into consideration cultural influences, which can run from full body cover to only a loin-cloth regardless of gender.

Which makes most criticism, IMO, less objective and a lot more arbitrary.

like classic conan, he might wear next to nothing running around but plated up if he knew he was going into battle

[Ceres Cato]

TanithT wrote:

Ceres Cato wrote:

But you can have sexy robes! And everyday clothing!

On occasions that it makes sense, both in terms of the plot and the situation, for a character to be naked or scantily dressed, it's not stupid to depict them that way.

This said, Pathfinder is an adventuring game where you are supposed to be heroically going out and doing stuff. How many legitimate adventuring scenarios are you going to find where it makes sense for people to be in their underwear?

There are some, but it's not a trope you want to overuse just for the fanservice value. And when you use it, everyone should be showing it. Not just the women.

Tsk tsk, sexy isn't naked or scantily dressed. And it isn't underwear. Sexy is so much more.

And I'm all for more sexy males in my fantasy. Already told so

[Hardwool]

I just wanted to add that there are surprisingly many males with uncovered, over-muscled arms that just beg to be chopped at...

[Coridan]

Didn't read whole thread or see all the new iconics yet but I would like to see a male heartthrob type, though don't know how well WOR could really pull that off.

[MannyGoblin]

I just want to know why the Iconic Shaman is wearing a WWF wrestling belt on her head?

[pres man]

Andrew R wrote:

like classic conan, he might wear next to nothing running around but plated up if he knew he was going into battle

Most of the time, Conan being in only a loinclothe was due to losing the rest of his armor or clothing (saying having to cut himself out of his metal armor stuck to a rock that some creature was coming down to consume him). The other times tended to be him being caught in a compromising position (how you doing sexy lady, oh crap ninjas!).

MannyGoblin wrote:

I just want to know why the Iconic Shaman is wearing a WWF wrestling belt on her head?

"OH YEAH!" -Macho Man voice

[Ceres Cato]

MannyGoblin wrote:

I just want to know why the Iconic Shaman is wearing a WWF wrestling belt on her head?

Because she earned it?

[MannyGoblin]

Elbow off the top turnbuckle? Now we need to get a Pathfinder version of XCrawl done.

[Ceres Cato]

MannyGoblin wrote:

Elbow off the top turnbuckle? Now we need to get a Pathfinder version of XCrawl done.

You lost me there. Whatever you're talking about, is it sexy?

[Andrew R]

Ceres Cato wrote:

MannyGoblin wrote:

Elbow off the top turnbuckle? Now we need to get a Pathfinder version of XCrawl done.

You lost me there. Whatever you're talking about, is it sexy?

Depends on standards, to someone anything out there is....

[Ceres Cato]

Andrew R wrote:

Ceres Cato wrote:

MannyGoblin wrote:

Elbow off the top turnbuckle? Now we need to get a Pathfinder version of XCrawl done.

You lost me there. Whatever you're talking about, is it sexy?

Depends on standards, to someone anything out there is....

Now you got me interested...

After asking Bing I'm not entirely sure whether I find it sexy. Probably not. I'm not into atheletics. Of any kind. Ah, well...

[MannyGoblin]

XCrawl is a 3.0/3.5 series of books that combines Running Man/Pro Wrestling and D&D where PCs run through hazards and monsters for cash prizes and fame
Link here

[LazarX]

pres man wrote:

"Nuh-uh! Fantasy! Magic!"

*yawn*

Yes, female characters should be dressed in stupid outfits that don't make sense because of magic and fantasy. Evidently magic and fantasy stuff doesn't work on males unless they want to run around and look like someone off of the Jersey Shore. Whatever.

As a New Jerseyite, I feel obligated to point out that most of the characters of that show... come from New York. :)

[Ceres Cato]

Do I understand correctly that members of the nerd sex (o_O) think that this Elliot Rodger is as attractive as possible?

[Liz Courts]

Did somebody say a Pathfinder RPG version of XCrawl?

[KSF]

TanithT wrote:

Here's a blog that explains a little about what that feels like.

Also.

[Ceres Cato]

KSF wrote:

TanithT wrote:

Here's a blog that explains a little about what that feels like.

Also.

Concerning the first blog post: I currently play Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning and I was disappointed that my female mage would never get sexy robes. Later I stopped playing her (not because of that, but because the playstyle became boring) and started over with a male. He's such a testosterone package that it's hilarious and I'm having a blast with him. Sometimes I strip him of all his armour, get back to easy areas and go on a killing spree in nothing but shorts, boots and gauntlets. Great fun.

Regarding the second post (the comic): This batman looks really creepy. I like my men with deep socketed eyes, not with big eyes. And if those muscled hunks are male power fantasy... I guess sometimes it's hard being male, with all those fit and muscular men looking down on them from their cosmetics, fashion and what have you commercials, wearing nothing but tattoos, muscles and boxershorts. You look at them and you know that you're not the same and never will be.

[Vic Wertz]

Oh yay! A thread about whether our art is too sexy or not sexy enough! I'm so glad that this topic has finally been brought up! I'm sure it will cause people to come up with many new ideas that the internet has never seen before, and then it will all end with everyone in complete agreement about where we should go from here.

[TanithT]

Ceres Cato wrote:

Concerning the first blog post: I currently play Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning and I was disappointed that my female mage would never get sexy robes. Later I stopped playing her (not because of that, but because the playstyle became boring) and started over with a male. He's such a testosterone package that it's hilarious and I'm having a blast with him. Sometimes I strip him of all his armour, get back to easy areas and go on a killing spree in nothing but shorts, boots and gauntlets. Great fun.

As it mentions in the first blog, I think if adults want to enjoy adult fantasy and play a sexed-up character, they should have the option of doing so. What it should not be is a default choice for one gender and not the other, or forced on anyone whose idea of being a heroic and powerful character does not happen to involve their underwear.

Quote:

Regarding the second post (the comic): This batman looks really creepy. I like my men with deep socketed eyes, not with big eyes. And if those muscled hunks are male power fantasy... I guess sometimes it's hard being male, with all those fit and muscular men looking down on them from their cosmetics, fashion and what have you commercials, wearing nothing but tattoos, muscles and boxershorts. You look at them and you know that you're not the same and never will be.

Body shaming is a thing for both sexes. Women are subjected to a lot more of it, but that doesn't mean men don't get hurt by it too.

[LazarX]

Vic Wertz wrote:

Oh yay! A thread about whether our art is too sexy or not sexy enough! I'm so glad that this topic has finally been brought up! I'm sure it will cause people to come up with many new ideas that the internet has never seen before, and then it will all end with everyone in complete agreement about where we should go from here.

I hear that Adam Warlock has opened up a special bench for the experienced, jaded, and cynical, especially now that he's lost his girl friend to Peter Quill. :)

[MannyGoblin]

Liz Courts wrote:

Did somebody say a Pathfinder RPG version of XCrawl?

My poor wallet! It cannae take any more!