New Iconics Desexed

[The Shining Fool]

Pan wrote:

So in interest of taking this conversation in a new direction; what would a more balanced spread look like?

Speaking for myself, I personally think we already have a nice balance, especially as far as traditional fantasy art is concerned. Paizo has done a pretty danged good job of promoting inclusivity.

I think that the problem that started this thread is the same problem that causes a lot of arguments on the boards and about RPG rules on a whole - failure to consider the rest of the context. If all of Paizo's art was similar to the art in the ACG, I could see how you could argue that Paizo is trying to be somewhat neutered. But taken in the context of all of the art they've produced, we've got a nice spectrum.

I'd like to see a more overtly sexy male iconic, but I'm only speaking for myself. And perhaps Mikaze and Necromancer. ;-)

[Scarletrose]

Mikaze wrote:

I wanted to jump all over this thread after recovering from the con but now I'm not so sure.

Maybe a more general "thanks for the range in female characters, Paizo" thread and a bump for the "more sexy mans plz" threads...

Yeah.

We definitely need more Seltyiels

[Necromancer]

Pan wrote:

So in interest of taking this conversation in a new direction; what would a more balanced spread look like?

A mandate that every AP include something equivalent to "every pregen iconic in the group topless inside a bathhouse". We simply do not have enough illustrations involving downtime shenanigans.

[Pan]

Necromancer wrote:

Pan wrote:

So in interest of taking this conversation in a new direction; what would a more balanced spread look like?

A mandate that every AP include something equivalent to "every pregen iconic in the group topless inside a bathhouse". We simply do not have enough illustrations involving downtime shenanigans.

Ha. I'd get a kick out of that.

[Scarletrose]

Necromancer wrote:

Pan wrote:

So in interest of taking this conversation in a new direction; what would a more balanced spread look like?

A mandate that every AP include something equivalent to "every pregen iconic in the group topless inside a bathhouse". We simply do not have enough illustrations involving downtime shenanigans.

Joking aside, I would really like to see a little more downtime illustrations.

One thing I really liked about the pathfinder comics is all the downtime dynamics.

Valeros hitting on Merisiel who gives him a little bit of hope.
Merisiel and Ameiko doing arm wrestling in the tavern.
Valeros disturbing Kyra's Preyers with his hangover.
Kyra and Merisol getting intimate...

I believe that is what makes a party. not slaying the dragon together. But rather the interpersonal dynamics.
At least that's what I like when I play.

[The Shining Fool]

Scarletrose wrote:

Necromancer wrote:

Pan wrote:

So in interest of taking this conversation in a new direction; what would a more balanced spread look like?

A mandate that every AP include something equivalent to "every pregen iconic in the group topless inside a bathhouse". We simply do not have enough illustrations involving downtime shenanigans.

Joking aside, I would really like to see a little more downtime illustrations.

One thing I really liked about the pathfinder comics is all the downtime dynamics.

Valeros hitting on Merisiel who gives him a little bit of hope.
Merisiel and Ameiko doing arm wrestling in the tavern.
Valeros disturbing Kyra's Preyers with his hangover.
Kyra and Merisol getting intimate...

I believe that is what makes a party. not slaying the dragon together. But rather the interpersonal dynamics.
At least that's what I like when I play.

I love this too. Maybe not always naked in the bathhouse ;-) but more downtime would be great.

And downtime would afford opportunities to show the characters in other than their regular outfits, allowing people to see more skin on some of the iconics, and less skin on others, or whatever.

@Scarletrose:

Finally, we completely agree on something! Wi-five!

[Malaclypse]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Now looking back at the linked post again, it seems possible you were trying to draw some sort of comparative point between what ShiningFool said and 'not being extreme' without referencing KSF's actual point about the article...but if so you did so extraordinarily poorly. To the point that what you actually said meant something very different from what you meant.

I am relieved that you can see my point now that you read the post we were talking about. And thanks for your critique of my posts. If only I were an amazing writer like you. Alas, I am not.

thejeff wrote:

"sexually charged ads exclude half of the audience" is a pretty extreme statement. In the context of the article under discussion, it's a pretty straightforward one: T&A are used to sell geek culture to men. This type of advertising excludes women.

Shining Fool was summarizing under the assumption that you'd actually read the article and get the point, not deal with his one sentence as a statement entirely on its own out of context.

The context was this very long thread about the ideal level of sexiness in Paizo art. In which those rather extreme opinions were voiced that I replied to.

While people did try to derail the discussion with that article, luckily I did not take that bait.

[thejeff]

Malaclypse wrote:

thejeff wrote:

"sexually charged ads exclude half of the audience" is a pretty extreme statement. In the context of the article under discussion, it's a pretty straightforward one: T&A are used to sell geek culture to men. This type of advertising excludes women.

Shining Fool was summarizing under the assumption that you'd actually read the article and get the point, not deal with his one sentence as a statement entirely on its own out of context.

The context was this very long thread about the ideal level of sexiness in Paizo art. In which those rather extreme opinions were voiced that I replied to.

While people did try to derail the discussion with that article, luckily I did not take that bait.

If you're trying to avoid taking the bait, I suggest not replying to posts discussing the bait. Particularly in a way that looks like you are.

[KSF]

Malaclypse wrote:

While people did try to derail the discussion with that article, luckily I did not take that bait.

The article dealt directly with the issues being discussed here, and with the issues being discussed in your conversation with Verdigris in particular. It was not a derail.

Sheesh.

[Deadmanwalking]

Necromancer wrote:

let's see, so far fifteen women and thirteen men--now add the upcoming six

So we can expect four men and two women...and hopefully, they won't have to retcon one of the older iconics to cover the transman void (I would rather have a new iconic that fits the bill from the start rather than revising one of them and turning the forums into digital hate for a few hours).

Actually, it's 16 women, 15 men (we have 31 Iconics at the moment, 11 Classes in the Corebook, 6 in the APG, 3 in Ultimate Combat, 1 in Ultimate Magic, and 10 in the ACG). So, I'd actually expect 3 and 3, but I was talking about gender balance in sexiness (where we have Seltyiel for the men, and Seoni, Alahazra, and Feiya for the women). Two of the men being pretty highly sexualized seems like a reasonable thing to hope for, really. Heck, even if they make one of the women highly sexualized too, that'd still be an improvement (4 to 3 instead of 3 to 1).

[Deadmanwalking]

Malaclypse wrote:

I am relieved that you can see my point now that you read the post we were talking about.

I'd actually read it before. It was only by going back and looking very carefully, and even then only in the context of your later posts that your meaning became clearer.

To everyone else:

I believe Malaclypse said that ShiningFool's statements summarizing the article were extreme, not intending to imply that the article was. KSF then (very reasonably in context) thought he was saying the article was extreme and said that wasn't reasonable, and he tried to refute her by saying he was responding to ShiningFool's post not the article in question...but did so in an extremely unclear way that implied he was talking about the article.

So...what we had in regards to the "I never said anything about the article." argument looks like it was a legitimate failure in communication. Re-looking at it, I quite seriously believe that accusations of Malaclypse not arguing in good faith (on my part as well as others) were in fact unwarranted (though understandable...that was some very confused communication). Malaclypse, you have my sincere apologies.

That doesn't mean that everyone here is in agreement or anything (or that Malaclypse's original response to ShiningFool was entirely reasonable), but it's worth noting nonetheless.

Malaclypse wrote:

And thanks for your critique of my posts. If only I were an amazing writer like you. Alas, I am not.

...you're welcome? I have no idea how to take that compliment in this context (and have never been ). *looks puzzled and bemused*

And your writing skills mostly seem pretty good. I think you might need to just slow down a minute and think what your posts (or, quite possibly, other writing) might look like to someone who doesn't know what you're thinking. Reading them aloud is a good strategy to do this for many kinds of writing, though probably not messageboard posts (and seems excessive for such transitory communication anyway), but the principle holds true anyway.

Malaclypse wrote:

The context was this very long thread about the ideal level of sexiness in Paizo art. In which those rather extreme opinions were voiced that I replied to.

It was also in the context of "This is a summary of what this article says." Responding to the words alone without actually reading the article is valid, but should be prefaced with noting that you didn't read the article to avoid precisely the sort of confusion that resulted. Since, generally speaking, if you quote a statement including a link and respond to it, it's assumed that you followed the link and read the thing on the other end.

Malaclypse wrote:

While people did try to derail the discussion with that article, luckily I did not take that bait.

I'm not clear how an on-topic article is a derailment. You're not obligated to read or respond to it...but then you aren't obligated to read or respond to anything, and merely being a linked work on another site doesn't make it a derailment.

[Necromancer]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Necromancer wrote:

let's see, so far fifteen women and thirteen men--now add the upcoming six

So we can expect four men and two women...and hopefully, they won't have to retcon one of the older iconics to cover the transman void (I would rather have a new iconic that fits the bill from the start rather than revising one of them and turning the forums into digital hate for a few hours).

Actually, it's 16 women, 15 men (we have 31 Iconics at the moment, 11 Classes in the Corebook, 6 in the APG, 3 in Ultimate Combat, 1 in Ultimate Magic, and 10 in the ACG). So, I'd actually expect 3 and 3, but I was talking about gender balance in sexiness (where we have Seltyiel for the men, and Seoni, Alahazra, and Feiya for the women). Two of the men being pretty highly sexualized seems like a reasonable thing to hope for, really. Heck, even if they make one of the women highly sexualized too, that'd still be an improvement (4 to 3 instead of 3 to 1).

blames one of the blogs for putting twenty-eight in my head

I think Crowe's more sexualized than Seltyiel (despite preferring the half-elf). As for sexiness, I think that's completely dependent on the viewer's perspective...I should make a list...

[Abraham spalding]

the cavalier is going to be heartbroken he did not make the sexiness cut.

[Coriat]

Downtime sounds like a great setting for sexy images.

I will say that art of someone charging into melee in lingerie (chainmail or otherwise) usually kind of annoys me and makes me less inclined to use the art in game. Mostly I just like at least a little suspension of disbelief in the art. Game art that feels to me like it is forcing sexy into a scene, in disregard of context, tends to feel dissonant rather than enjoyable.

Nobody spends all their time wading through the muck fighting zombies, though.

[thejeff]

Coriat wrote:

Downtime sounds like a great setting for sexy images.

I will say that art of someone charging into melee in lingerie (chainmail or otherwise) usually kind of annoys me and makes me less inclined to use the art in game. Mostly I just like at least a little suspension of disbelief in the art. Game art that feels to me like it is forcing sexy into a scene, in disregard of context, tends to feel dissonant rather than enjoyable.

Nobody spends all their time wading through the muck fighting zombies, though.

Downtime or any scenario with more social or investigative encounters.

Granted they generally prefer action scenes for the artwork, but there are other approaches that could highlight unique features of the adventure or setting.

[Necromancer]

The obligatory which-iconic-I-think-is-sexy list going only by their iconic portrait. None of this is meant to be taken as a criticism of the art, but rather as a single statistic that one person's sexy is another person's NOPE.

The List:

• Valeros the Fighter - he's certainly got potential, but he looks a bit lost and unsure of himself

• Seoni the Sorceress - that expression's fantastic, but all that ink...I'll pass

• Merisiel the Rogue - nope, no thank you

• Kyra the Cleric - she's got potential, but that headgear just kills it for me

• Ezren the Wizard - I'll take one younger, with dark hair please

• Harsk the Ranger - automatic dwarf points plus that determined, grim look :)

• Seelah the Paladin - if she was just a warrior, possibly, but knowing she's a paladin, just ruins it for me

• Lem the Bard - uh oh, one of these got in...let me get my boot

• Sajan the Monk - all that monastic discipline just looks sterile as hell and completely boring, no thanks

• Amiri the Barbarian - ... ... I'm sorry, I was too busy biting my lip :D--however, she needs a greataxe (Final Fantasy stuff is usually an instant turn-off) instead of that Cloud-blade.

• Lini the Druid - wait…this is sexy, adorable, and avoids lolicon territory? Amazing.

• Seltyiel the Magus - it's amazing how I can function just fine without pureblood elves…until a half-elf comes along…a half-elf with very pale skin, light blue eyes, more anger than angst, and arcane powers :D'''

• Alahazra the Oracle - great piece of artwork…but I'm not feeling anything probably the headgear

• Alain the Cavalier - from an attractiveness perspective he just feels so typical, so dull…pass

• Damiel the Alchemist - nope, no thank you

• Hayato the Samurai - there's some potential, but nothing I'd trip over furniture to get to

• Lirianne the Gunslinger - f!%~ yes…I'm sorry, that came on too-- All of my god damned YES! The shapes, the guns, the ears, the limited-edition-assless-chaps--falls out of chair in excitement

• Reiko the Ninja - there's a certain sexy appeal to ninjas, but Reiko's only potentially sexy

• Feiya the Witch - :D'''hell yes, more please! She's like Seltyiel's distant and equally-or-more sexy relative.

• Imrijka the Inquisitor - sooooooooooooo much potential…just need to hide the chainmail somewhere before she wakes up the hat really gets in the way, though

• Balazar the Summoner - of all the male gnome possibilities…walks off grumbling in disappointment…honestly, Padrig looks sexier

• Jirelle the Swashbuckler - some potential and the gear's amazing, but I can't seem to get too excited about her

• Quinn the Investigator - he's in the same boat as Ezren

• Oloch the Warpriest - there's this trend of wacky headgear outright murdering iconic attraction…less Gorumite armor and we'll talk

• Crowe the Bloodrager – grins, bites lip, and moves on

• Enora the Arcanist - how do they keep getting in? Where's my other boot?

• Hakon the Skald - and he sings? Well, now…

• Kess the Brawler - crazy headgear ruining my fun again

• Zadim the Slayer - looks more like a construct wearing clothes than a man, pass

• Shardra the Shaman - a female dwarf! Finally…wait she's being eaten by her headgear!!...so yeah, more please…and less headdress

• Adowyn the Hunter – :D no headgear, red hair, serious-face-ranger-mode…every time I look at this picture the grin on my face stays for several minutes
  

Edit: what this list really needs is more tieflings.

[Set]

Necromancer wrote:

Amiri the Barbarian - ... ... I'm sorry, I was too busy biting my lip :D--however, she needs a greataxe (Final Fantasy stuff is usually an instant turn-off) instead of that Cloud-blade.

[tangent]

A Golarion-flavored alternate barbarian along the same lines could be a Mwangi with a Large Cyclopean greataxe made in the style of the Ghol-Gan Cyclops, with a darkwood handle and a stylized gold-plated metal sphere representing the sun at the end of the haft providing weight, edged with a silvered steel crescent blade representing the moon (so that it looks like the sun is eclipsing the moon). Throw on some dinosaur-hide armor (perhaps even with feathers still attached?) and the character would be offering up all sorts of Golarion-specific imagery and flavor.
[/tangent]

[Necromancer]

Set wrote:

Necromancer wrote:

Amiri the Barbarian - ... ... I'm sorry, I was too busy biting my lip :D--however, she needs a greataxe (Final Fantasy stuff is usually an instant turn-off) instead of that Cloud-blade.

[tangent]

A Golarion-flavored alternate barbarian along the same lines could be a Mwangi with a Large Cyclopean greataxe made in the style of the Ghol-Gan Cyclops, with a darkwood handle and a stylized gold-plated metal sphere representing the sun at the end of the haft providing weight, edged with a silvered steel crescent blade representing the moon (so that it looks like the sun is eclipsing the moon). Throw on some dinosaur-hide armor (perhaps even with feathers still attached?) and the character would be offering up all sorts of Golarion-specific imagery and flavor.
[/tangent]

I'm disappointed that we didn't get anyone like that during Serpent's Skull...or the Shackles AP for that matter...

[Lilith]

The Shining Fool wrote:

Scarletrose wrote:

Necromancer wrote:

Pan wrote:

So in interest of taking this conversation in a new direction; what would a more balanced spread look like?

A mandate that every AP include something equivalent to "every pregen iconic in the group topless inside a bathhouse". We simply do not have enough illustrations involving downtime shenanigans.

Joking aside, I would really like to see a little more downtime illustrations.

One thing I really liked about the pathfinder comics is all the downtime dynamics.

Valeros hitting on Merisiel who gives him a little bit of hope.
Merisiel and Ameiko doing arm wrestling in the tavern.
Valeros disturbing Kyra's Preyers with his hangover.
Kyra and Merisol getting intimate...

I believe that is what makes a party. not slaying the dragon together. But rather the interpersonal dynamics.
At least that's what I like when I play.

I love this too. Maybe not always naked in the bathhouse ;-) but more downtime would be great.

And downtime would afford opportunities to show the characters in other than their regular outfits, allowing people to see more skin on some of the iconics, and less skin on others, or whatever.

** spoiler omitted **

I have an idea for a drinking contest illustration between Valeros, Amiri, Crowe, and Alain. :)

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed some off-topic posts and their responses. The discussion of rape culture really doesn't belong in the Campaign Setting forum. Let's keep this centered around Golarion and the original topic please.

[Mikaze]

Lilith wrote:

Red Velvet Tiger wrote:

EVERYONE NEEDS MOAR SKEXY ICONIKS!!! MOAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Selytiel = pure sex poured into black leather!

Where he's going in my sketchbook, he doesn't need leather.

Lilith wrote:

I have an idea for a drinking contest illustration between Valeros, Amiri, Crowe, and Alain. :)

subscribes

[Snorter]

Lilith wrote:

Where he's going in my sketchbook, he doesn't need leather.

"Draw me. Draw me, like one of your French boys."

[SAMAS]

Malaclypse wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Because I'm trying really hard not to be insulting (and have no problem with people getting high, or kidding around) but I'm literally flabbergasted at how you can seriously get 'sex negative' from that article without some form of mind-altering chemical being involved.

I don't. I was not talking about the article but answering statements uttered on this board. Namely, those that I quoted.

...And here is where I'll choose to jump (back) in.

The recent backlash against skimpy female armor is not, not, NOT about sexiness in and of itself.

It is about the fact that said sexiness compromises the effectiveness and survivability of said armor. Armor that shows off a lot of cleavage is not protecting that part of the body. And protection is what armor does. It's the sole purpose of wearing a big chunk of steel on your body.

But rather than bore you with even more words, this picture speaks far clearer than I can:

[url]http://www.deviantart.com/art/Fantasy-Armor-355029113[/url]

See? Sexy over effectiveness = Not good.

[Snorter]

Back to the topic;

When you create a piece of art, that purports to be a female warrior, please check it off against the following:

Female Armor Bingo

and when composing a response to objections against items that fail one or more points on the above, try checking that response against the following:

Female Armor Rhetoric Bingo

That middle square has been used so much in this thread already, they may as well have designated it a Free Square.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed a couple posts. Let's move on please; accusations of trolling really aren't helpful.

[Lamontius]

pass

[JurgenV]

SAMAS wrote:

Malaclypse wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Because I'm trying really hard not to be insulting (and have no problem with people getting high, or kidding around) but I'm literally flabbergasted at how you can seriously get 'sex negative' from that article without some form of mind-altering chemical being involved.

I don't. I was not talking about the article but answering statements uttered on this board. Namely, those that I quoted.

...And here is where I'll choose to jump (back) in.

The recent backlash against skimpy female armor is not, not, NOT about sexiness in and of itself.

It is about the fact that said sexiness compromises the effectiveness and survivability of said armor. Armor that shows off a lot of cleavage is not protecting that part of the body. And protection is what armor does. It's the sole purpose of wearing a big chunk of steel on your body.

But rather than bore you with even more words, this picture speaks far clearer than I can:

[url]http://www.deviantart.com/art/Fantasy-Armor-355029113[/url]

See? Sexy over effectiveness = Not good.

This is why we need "adventurer" pictures as well as "leisure time" artwork so we can see both the badass fighting gear and the day to day comfort for all of the races/ethnicities/personalities.