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From the Core Rulebook: (spoiler to save space)
In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters
as well (see the Survival skill in Chapter 4). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).
A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued. These penalties end when the character recovers from the nonlethal damage she took from the heat.
Now, not to go all anecdotal on everyone, but I'm totally going anecdotal. I live in Arkansas, and work at a summer camp teaching a variety of ranchy-things. Neither I, nor my kids, who spend 10+ hours in the sun, have ever fallen unconscious. Temperatures are routinely above 90 degrees F, and have gone over 110.
I just don't know if Paizo doesn't know about how the South is during the summer, or if this is a deliberate (if silly decision.)
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Not 100% sure, but I think this part was kept completely the same from 3.5 (which I believe wasn't changed from 3.0). So was more a case of Paizo not caring enough about a little piece of rules that most people don't bother with to make it more realistic.
I work outdoors in Pennsylvania, and in the summer it'll still pretty frequently get above 90 degrees (and pretty humid, being by the coast) and while it's certainly tiring, nobody's really in danger of passing out unless they weren't smart enough to bring any water along.
It's hard to make rules on this realistic because it would all depend on things like: how heavy the work you're doing is, how much shade you get, how often and long you take breaks, how much water you're drinking, how humid that particular climate&day are (conversely, intensely dry is also a problem), etc. But I would agree that for general purposes the minimum temp for each category should probably start at least 10 higher, and the DC should start lower.
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From the Core Rulebook: (spoiler to save space)
** spoiler omitted **Now, not to go all anecdotal on everyone, but I'm totally going anecdotal. I live in Arkansas, and work at a summer camp teaching a variety of ranchy-things. Neither I, nor my kids, who spend 10+ hours in the sun, have ever fallen unconscious. Temperatures are routinely above 90 degrees F, and have gone over 110.
I just don't know if Paizo doesn't know about how the South is during the summer, or if this is a deliberate (if silly decision.)
I read the bolded as "raunchy things". Was wondering what kind of camp that was until I re-read it. :P
I don't think I've ever used the environmental rules in any iteration of d&d. They're always seemed like things that just drag the game down.
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As far as I was aware, you only needed to make a check like that if you were traveling overland. Which, if you're carrying between 20-100lbs of gear in hot weather like that for any long amount of time, it's going to be rather tough and it's likely to see Heat Stroke or even Heat Exhaustion come up unless you're well prepared and knowledgeable about it.
Hell, I remember a few years ago there were a ton of Heat Stroke cases at one of BSA's national jamborees.
I don't think I've ever used the environmental rules in any iteration of d&d. They're always seemed like things that just drag the game down.
Same here. Unless I'm putting the PCs in a 'you're stuck in the middle of the desert, your sole goal is to survive' kind of scenario, not worth the effort.
Same here. Unless I'm putting the PCs in a 'you're stuck in the middle of the desert, your sole goal is to survive' kind of scenario, not worth the effort.I don't think I've ever used the environmental rules in any iteration of d&d. They're always seemed like things that just drag the game down.
Cold weather seems like it could be used for a scenario... that basically mirrors the set up of some horror movie.
"The blizzard has forced you into this isolated log cabin. You need to maintain a fire so you do not suffer from the cold. But some shadows appear to be lurking past the treeline..."
Admittedly, extremely cold weather seems more serious rules wise than hot weather. When it is below -20 degree F, it does the 1d6 nonlethal with no save, and makes you do a save against 1d4 lethal as well. And that is per MINUTE. Low level characters would not even last an hour.
And those are the characters least likely to have Endure Elements to go around; not enough slots, a spontaneous class not wanting 'something useless', or a wizard that just didn't buy the right scroll to add to his book could all let you control the situation. Of course, Invulnerable Rager barbarians have to be spoil sports and gain immunity to either hot or cold weather at level 3.
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I recently spent an hour in an attic a little over 110 degrees. This was the temp next to the exterior vent, BTW. Didn't realize I had such a great fortitude save!
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I think it's important to realize that warm temperatures are very dependent on where you've spent most of your life. I've walked for hours in 100+ degree weather with regular water and been fine. On the other hand, France had one of its worst heat waves in decades relatively recently, getting up to the upper 80s, and they had hundreds of DEATHS caused by it.
Typical temperature can influence things, and unless most adventurers spend regular time in these environments, it actually makes a bit of sense.
I dotn have the book on me but doesnt it say somewhere before or after that segment you spoilered that this only happens if you lack water/food or both?
I bet youve rarely worked that hot summer job without a decently sized tank, bottle or mug of some beverage or another nearby. Where I live temperatures rarely go higher then 15° celcius, but today was a very hot day indeed, and the heat was supplemented by the warmth from a grill I found myself working next to for 4 hours. It was no "schorching slave camp" but the heat definitely made me go woozy even if for just a short moment.
Basicly, the people who wrote that rule text might have a different opinion about what is "hot weather" and what is unbearable.
I can get behind the cold weather rules though. Overheating can take a while to happen, and youre not really in danger of death if you have fluid to drink and food to eat, the heat might even cook the food for you.
Cold however, cold slows you down. Food freezes in extreme cold, so without advanced storage methods it will become inedible without a fire source. The longer you stay in the cold your extremeties will freeze, fingers curl up and die, toes become necrotic death dispensers. If you wander into a snowstorm wearing only a shirt and your trousers youll be at risk of death in just a few dozen minutes, and dead within the hour.
The low temperature rules are similar "harsh". If those would be true I'd been unconscious several time every winter.
As a child I usually spend a LOT of time outside in the winter. Enough that I'd have had to make fortitude saves now and then.
For the hot climates humidity is a deciding factor. As long as I wear some kind of headgear dry climates are not that hard to endure. Humid climates, on the other hand, tend to be more dangerous.
As far as the food/water discussion goes, the CR has this to say:
"Environmental hazards specific to one kind of terrain are described in the Wilderness section. Environmental hazards common to more than one setting are detailed below."
The RAW says nothing about inadequate water or food or anything of the like, though that seems like a good house rule.
As far as I was aware, you only needed to make a check like that if you were traveling overland. Which, if you're carrying between 20-100lbs of gear in hot weather like that for any long amount of time, it's going to be rather tough and it's likely to see Heat Stroke or even Heat Exhaustion come up unless you're well prepared and knowledgeable about it.
Again, same as above, the rules that I quoted to start with, and the two bits I added are the only stipulations for starting to apply the heat damage.
I grant you it makes sense, but in the RAW, there isn't anything like that.
Which is really my point, that the RAW shouldn't be goofy like it is. Even if Paizo doesn't change it, hopefully a few people more know that the Hot/Cold conditions aren't the most realistic.
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From the Core Rulebook: (spoiler to save space)
** spoiler omitted **Now, not to go all anecdotal on everyone, but I'm totally going anecdotal. I live in Arkansas, and work at a summer camp teaching a variety of ranchy-things. Neither I, nor my kids, who spend 10+ hours in the sun, have ever fallen unconscious. Temperatures are routinely above 90 degrees F, and have gone over 110.
I just don't know if Paizo doesn't know about how the South is during the summer, or if this is a deliberate (if silly decision.)
Having collapsed do to Heat Exhaustion, at a temp below 90F at the time. It isn't always about the external temp, but about the bodies ability to cool itself.
I've seen people standing still in high heat collapse, and people moving around in the same weather do perfectly fine.
Now, not to go all anecdotal on everyone, but I'm totally going anecdotal. I live in Arkansas, and work at a summer camp teaching a variety of ranchy-things.
Where in Arkansas are you? I'm in Conway.
Now, not to go all anecdotal on everyone, but I'm totally going anecdotal. I live in Arkansas, and work at a summer camp teaching a variety of ranchy-things.Where in Arkansas are you? I'm in Conway.
Finishing my BS at UCA. As such, within a few miles of you at best.
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My take on this, as well as the bulk of the severe weather rules, is that it is place to offer some simple rules for the majority of games. It has been my experience that the majority of games don't deal with severe environmental conditions very often and thus the rules are adequate.
The rules really don't hold up in a game where the weather is a constant challenge and characters are facing off against the elements as much as they are monsters. For that kind of game the GM will need to come up with a rules set that is more robust. I made such a rules set for my current Serpent's Skull game because I wanted the party to be fighting the environment as much as anything else.
I live in Maine and in the summer the heat and humidity are a threat. I have seen people pass out because they weren't taking appropriate breaks or remaining hydrated and that was working inside. Outside is even worse. I am an avid outdoorsy type as well and need to always make sure I have enough water and I'm wearing appropriate clothing. Around here, the weather really can kill people if they are not smart.
Arkansasians have the warm weather adaptation feat from Sandstorm.
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lol Arkansas. Come here to Florida and we'll show you how to handle real hot weather :p
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lol Arkansas. Come here to Florida and we'll show you how to handle real hot weather :p
Florida: If the hot weather and stirge "skeeter" infestation doesn't get you, the SAN damage will.
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I thought we had established that Florida was zombie land now?
Those rules were expanded in Sandstorm and Frostburn, and Pathfinder really just hasn't covered it in depth yet. In both being native makes you immune to the first level of hot or cold and resistance to higher levels as does a feat that can be taken at level one. 111 degrees to 140 degrees sounds like weather that it'd be fine to say those used to it are going to only have trouble in after several hours. For cold the level where natives start taking hourly nonlethal is 0 to -20 and even that assumes they are wearing no coat of any kind.
Assuming you were wearing a modern coat (equivalent of the rules cold weather gear + furs) you'd have level 2 protection at least. So 2d6 cold damage. Still a bit too high for realism but not monstrously far off.
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lol Arkansas. Come here to Florida and we'll show you how to handle real hot weather :pFlorida: If the hot weather and stirge "skeeter" infestation doesn't get you, the SAN damage will.
Don't forget about the man-eating exotic constrictors that plague the whole region (not just Florida anymore): moron buys daughter a snake to stop the whining, little-miss-moron plays with the animal for a year or so before getting bored (a state of abuse in some households), little-miss-moron can't be asked to care for the pet, moron takes over offspring's duties until the expense or inconvenience kicks in, entire Moron clan drives the reptile to a swamp, Moron clan releases the foreign predator to the wilds, years pass, rural family's pets or cattle begin to disappear, rural family discovers Hound Serpent of the Baskervilles Morons--a fifteen foot long monster
So yeah, extreme humidity, wandering giant reptiles, swarming voracious insects, and pockets of hostile humanoids (usually in urban areas)...and some players wonder why I won't run jungle settings...
Finishing my BS at UCA. As such, within a few miles of you at best.Now, not to go all anecdotal on everyone, but I'm totally going anecdotal. I live in Arkansas, and work at a summer camp teaching a variety of ranchy-things.Where in Arkansas are you? I'm in Conway.
Congrats on finishing up!
That ranchy place wouldn't be Heifer International's ranch, would it?
The rules really don't hold up in a game where the weather is a constant challenge and characters are facing off against the elements as much as they are monsters. For that kind of game the GM will need to come up with a rules set that is more robust. I made such a rules set for my current Serpent's Skull game because I wanted the party to be fighting the environment as much as anything else.
Care to share for those of us interested?
As someone who lives in California and HAS passed out from heat stroke in 105° weather from walking about a mile or so across town with little to no fluid, this seems about right.
As far as the food/water discussion goes, the CR has this to say:
** spoiler omitted **The RAW says nothing about inadequate water or food or anything of the like, though that seems like a good house rule.
There is a mention that the nonlethal damage taken for excessive heat can be recovered after you are doused in water. That could be interpreted as resetting the clock on the Fortitude saves if you consume sufficient water. If your party includes a cleric who can cast Create Water at will, that party should never have to worry about the heat.
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Heart of the Sun Humans born in tropical climates treat hot climates as one category less severe. They also gain a +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saving throws against the effects of a hot climate, as well as against the poison and distraction ability of swarms and vermin. This racial trait replaces skilled.
Well, these are all a holdover from D&D 3.0 IIRC, or at the very least 3.5, so I don't think Pathfinder's designers are that demented. Well they may be, but not on account of this rule ;)
The values are off IMO, and doesn't account for acclimatisation, but I believe environmental damage should exist.
In the dead of winter, when I'm acclimatised to the cold, I can take a flat -30 when dressed properly for quite a long while, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't survive a night out, undressed at -10 with wind factor bringing it down to -30 if I fly to the antarctic in what would be the middle of my summer.
The rule is there to say "you can't waltz through a blizzard unprotected, or in a desert, or in the heart of a volcano, without some kind of risk*". Adjust the values to what makes sense to you.
*but since Endure Elements is a 0-level spell, hot and cold temperatures are such a ridiculously easy hazard to overcome that you might as well remove it from the game...
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The rules really don't hold up in a game where the weather is a constant challenge and characters are facing off against the elements as much as they are monsters. For that kind of game the GM will need to come up with a rules set that is more robust. I made such a rules set for my current Serpent's Skull game because I wanted the party to be fighting the environment as much as anything else.Care to share for those of us interested?
I sure can!
They're not super pretty but they get across what it's like to be out and about in the heat and humidity. Here in Maine the heat is not what makes the summers dangerous, it's the humidity. I work as a CNA and a while back worked in a building that wasn't air conditioned and we had a few of the girls pass out while working because they weren't remaining hydrated appropriately. It's a serious danger, especially to the elderly.
Behind the spoiler tag are the rules I made for my current Serpent's Skull game to attempt to reflect the dangers of heat and humidity. They have been working pretty well so far.
More extreme conditions kick in when temperatures exceed 90 and the saves become hourly. Temperatures over 100 raise the saves to every 10 minutes. Relaxing in the shade and drinking water for four hours will reduce the level of drain a single step (exhausted to fatigued, etc.)
Characters wearing inappropriate clothing make the saves more difficult. Wearing light armor imposes a -2, medium a -4, and heavy a -8. The heat and humidity double the amount of water a character needs to drink to remain hydrated (2 gallons for a Med character, 1 gallon for small). Not having adequate water forces Fort saves as if conditions were a severity level higher. Lack of water also imposes dehydration as described in the book (page 444).
These rules are used with a spreadsheet I made detailing the weather conditions day by day. They won't work so well if you are rolling weather randomly using the tables in the book. I based my days on the actual weather of an island off the coast of west Africa over the summer of 2013.
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I've lived in Arizona for 12 years, and worked oilfield for a year in S. Texas. I can assure you that you can pass out or hallucinate working in 100+ temperatures. Hell, the news in S. Texas throughout the summer is mostly old people dying when their window units conk out.
What's so bad about Florida? I know it's got a bad rap, but why? Most of the things I hear about it just aren't true (or are extremely exaggerated).
What's so bad about Florida? I know it's got a bad rap, but why? Most of the things I hear about it just aren't true (or are extremely exaggerated).
The heat. That's really the worst part. Cultural differences drive some people up the walls (usually from demographics they pictured as saints). It's just a different flavored crazy that can be found at your local Wal-Mart. Did I mention the heat? This region has the worst summers...
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From the Core Rulebook: (spoiler to save space)
** spoiler omitted **Now, not to go all anecdotal on everyone, but I'm totally going anecdotal. I live in Arkansas, and work at a summer camp teaching a variety of ranchy-things. Neither I, nor my kids, who spend 10+ hours in the sun, have ever fallen unconscious. Temperatures are routinely above 90 degrees F, and have gone over 110.
I just don't know if Paizo doesn't know about how the South is during the summer, or if this is a deliberate (if silly decision.)
Having lived in the Alaskan interior for a number of years, I can also assure you the rules for Cold Weather are even more unrealistic.
Although to be fair, when I was well-acclimated to that kind of weather (where -20 degrees is considered too warm a day to waste NOT going outside and doing something) I did find the hot weather rules fairly appropro ;) 90 degrees!?! F that noise. Unfit for human habitation.
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I live in Florida, specifically Melbourne.
It's like black hole I can barely escape. A town of broken dreams and drug addicts. Hence why I'm moving on Saturday to Ft Lauderdale.
Regarding Arkansas, we're actually having a cooler than average summer so far.
What's so bad about Florida? I know it's got a bad rap, but why? Most of the things I hear about it just aren't true (or are extremely exaggerated).
You have 2 choices in Florida, live in rural areas and deal with all the hicks and meth heads, or live in a city and deal with all the hicks' relatives, and meth heads.
Or live in a "city" like Tallahassee and deal with the college students and horrendous job market.
Of the three, the last is the most palatable, and it's still not that great.
The weather's nothing.
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So don't live in a neighborhood full of hicks and meth heads if they don't suit you. Does no one research the place they are going to live before moving there?
We have neither of those things anywhere near my neighborhood, which is VERY rural Florida, and right next to a college town what's more.
People make it out to be worse than it is.
So don't live in a neighborhood full of hicks and meth heads if they don't suit you. Does no one research the place they are going to live before moving there?
We have neither of those things anywhere near my neighborhood, which is VERY rural Florida, and right next to a college town what's more.
People make it out to be worse than it is.
I've lived there all my life. Recently moved away. Can't exactly "research" the place you're born before moving there.
You don't realize how much of a f~&*ing s&@&hole it is until you've lived elsewhere.
It doesn't help that my family were the dealers.
So don't live in a neighborhood full of hicks and meth heads if they don't suit you. Does no one research the place they are going to live before moving there?
We have neither of those things anywhere near my neighborhood, which is VERY rural Florida, and right next to a college town what's more.
People make it out to be worse than it is.
Research does little when you can't afford s++$.