Mindchemist's Stink Bomb shuts down Rogue character concept

[Mrakvampire]

Hello all!

In one of my games (I run several ones) I've got an issue. Party is 7th level right now.
One player plays Mindchemist with Stink Bomb discovery and under Cognatogen he has DC 21 for this bomb. Another player plays Rogue with concept of heavy poison use.

Issue is: if party encounters enemies with moderate-low Fort saves without poison immunity, then whole encounter is simply solved with 1-2 stink bombs (nauseated condition for 1d4+1 rounds is uber-powerful!) and rogue character simly have no room to shine with his poisoned weapons. If party encounters enemies with high Fort saves, then rogue's poison DCs simply can't affect anyone and Mindchemist is still ok. And if party encounter poison immune enemies, then Rogue character again can't shine with his concept.

My question is: how to deal with this situation? Maybe I'm doing something wrong and Stink Bomb shouldn't be so powerful?

[DM.]

Rogues are not strong but in this case the problem is the poisons. Long story short, Using posion in PF is expensive and not actually good.

[Petty Alchemy]

Nevermind, it's pretty powerful even if the cloud doesn't stick around.

Unfortunately, poison is a poor focus in Pathfinder, and the Alchemist is well optimized.

Without nerfing the alchemist, you could buff the DCs of poisons.

[Arachnofiend]

The problem isn't the fact that the Alchemist is too good, it's that the Rogue is bad. Poison is a terribly suboptimal strategy; it's only workable as an Alchemist, and even then it's not one of the better Alchemist builds.

I'd personally recommend the Rogue just build a different character, but if they're dead set on poison then they should rebuild into a Vivisectionist Alchemist; they'd still have sneak attack and can flavor it as being virtually the same character, just with a little bit more magic. I'd recommend they check up this guide for advice on putting together the character.

[Zwordsman]

Poison on weapons is darn hard to do, i don't know if this is pfs or not but.

The best thing i can recommend if sticking with that character is,
Look into: Dagger mark poisoner, poisoner's jacket (lessser and greater), conductive weapon.
Daggermark has some SLA that increase posion potency and increase the chances of poison working.
Poisoner's jackets give free poisons per day.
Conductive weapon lets the Daggermark poisoner's SLAs go through the blade while attacking and procing poison.

Daggermakr also has methods of buffing the poison, via sneak attack. So if it wouldn't change much, you could make the Rogue a Scout, so they can move and poison easier.

If your willing to change a bit, Scout rogue, get to lv 8, get to Daggermark poisoner. Then I see two ways of doing it. (could do both though)
Weapon finessse, charging hurler (maybe.. see next, but it is less useful at lv8+). This lets you use dex to attack, and throw on a charge (with scout archetype you get sneak attack when charging at lv 4?) so you can charge into combat and get sneak attack for damage, or for poison DC buff. and you can chargea nd throw your dagger for the same.
Add in a blink back belt and the weapon always comes back.

Later at lv 8, you can move 10 feet and you get sneak attack.
At this point you could either charge and throw, or get shot on the run, to always take full movement and throw. You only get one attack a round, but you get full sneak or poison buff. The only problem with throwing is that you can't apply the SLA (unless you as GM rule he can take a ranged touch version of the spells. It isn't unfair, considering this build).
From lv 8 onward go for Daggermark, it also lets him craft similiarly to an alchemist. Condcutive agile dagger is a good idea as well.

So equipments:
conductive agile dagger,
blinkback belt,
poisoner's jackets (note. there are various abilities that buff created poisons, consider letting those affect poison made from this)

Feats I would suggest: Weapon fineese (as you'll want ot be dex if your trying the melee and ranged version, and poisons are not quick so you'll want AC and Reflex), precise shot, point blank shot, shot on the run. Potentially charging hurler.

Rogue Talents: well i might pick up a few from ninja. But mostly i'd focus on the sneak attack effects ones. Like the bleed effect, and stat damage ones. Might as well lay on the effects. If they like the bleed one as well, pick up wounding enchantment too.

note: I don't remember the feats.. but I seem to remeber tehre being some way to move 10ft via 5foot step. This way you could move 10ft and full attack.

If the player wants to be a melee version note that and I can try soemthign along those lines..

[Rynjin]

Regular poison DCs are insanely low, and work so slowly you may as well not even bother.

At level 7 a DC 21 is pretty good, but not an unreasonably high DC.

The problem is, your Rogue has maybe a DC 14 on his poison. DC 16-17 at best. And it'll cost him hundreds of gold a dose for any of the ones with even that high of a DC that do anything significant.

If you want to let your Rogue shine with his poisons, you'll probably need to homebrew some stuff.

Namely, a way to raise his poison DCs, and ways for poisons to take effect quicker (because usually they don't start becoming debilitating until round 3 or 4 at earliest...by which point combat is probably winding down or is already over).

[Alex Cunningham]

I've been mulling over the notion, for my campaigns, of poisons either being 1/2 cost, or +5 to the base DC, or both. I reckon neither of these are complicated fixes nor would they suddenly imbalance a game where such a thing as a Power-Attacking-Barbarian exists.

[Radiostorm]

You could always homebrew a rogue talent that creates some synergy between the alchemist and the rogue in your party. Maybe one that incurs a saving throw penalty against poison if the opponent is within the AoE or otherwise suffering from the the effects of a cloud or fog spell. That way your two players will feel like they are cooperating with one another rather than competing.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Arachnofiend wrote:

The problem isn't the fact that the Alchemist is too good, it's that the Rogue is bad. Poison is a terribly suboptimal strategy; it's only workable as an Alchemist, and even then it's not one of the better Alchemist builds.

I'd personally recommend the Rogue just build a different character, but if they're dead set on poison then they should rebuild into a Vivisectionist Alchemist; they'd still have sneak attack and can flavor it as being virtually the same character, just with a little bit more magic. I'd recommend they check up this guide for advice on putting together the character.

This. Not only is the problem that the Rogue is bad.... The alchemist also happens to be a MUCH better class for poisoning, if the alchemist isn't outshining the rogue at that particular niche, it's solely because he's chosen not to invest in it at all. Not that I blame him...poison sucks...

So yeah, rebuild as another alchemist if he really likes poison. Get Sticky Poison and Poison Conversion ASAP (level 6, I think) and combine with the inherent class features to poison more quickly. Find creative conversions, like "inhaled drow poison."

[Feral]

The alchemist is super optimized and the rogue is not.

Either nerf the alchemist or buff the rogue.

[Dreaming Psion]

Hmm, a few things to look into:

Stink bomb involves two things that poison delivered by weapons does not:
-it's an effect that causes nausea
-it's an inhaled poison.

A thing that the stink bomb shares with other types of poison is:
-it is an all-or-nothing sort of effect. (You make the save, you don't suffer anything.)

Therefore, in addition to what has been offered above, you can think about the following:
-introduce creature that don't breathe or have some sort of resistance to nausea but are still vulnerable to poison
-introduce poisons that still have some effect when a save is made.

If you do either strategy, consider the ramifications it might have. If you introduce nonbreathing creatures or creatures immune/resistant to nausea, be sure to also throw in some that ARE to go with them. That way everybody can still do their thing.

Another thing to consider, what skills does your rogue PC have that the alchemist PC doesn't have (including any relevant player skills if relevant.) Does the rogue have skills for manipulation he could lure people into situations where he could poison them, for example?

[sunbeam]

That Daggermark poisoner isn't very powerful but it is pretty neat. I could enjoy playing a character built around that.

Well if the other players didn't show me up all the time.

[Zwordsman]

It doens't sound like the alchemist is super optimised, it's just that class was built to do poisons easier with less cost. The poison bomb is basically a poison spell on command, and later on can quite literally cover the whole field with it. reduced crafting cost, if your a special race (or human with the special race heritage) you can switch out your level bonus for +craft alchemy for poisons and + DC of poisons crafted. Throw in discoveries like INTx hits per dose of poison etc.. It's an uphill battle sadly.

Vivi+Daggermark poisoner is hard to beat for melee poison centric person. Made one before and just had extracts of healing, and invisbility (to play a character) only. The game ended but he was going to eventualy get some Master spy or more like sleepless detective.

If your ok with homebrew, (outside of my last post)
You could come up with +cost enchantment (instead of +#) for a weapon that allows the enhancment bonuses from the weapon to apply the poison DCs. and then either a number bonus, or magic item that creats the poison spell on the weapon (but with a good DC or someway to raise the DC. Maybe just have it use the weidler's class and INT bonus to factor the poison spell)
or you could allow the rogue to take poison related discoveries.

My last suggestion would be, wait a few weeks for Advanced Class Guide to come out. I'm willing to bet there well be a Poison archetype for either Investigator or slayer (thaat the one with sneak attack? or was that hunter?). You could replace into that once it comes out.
There might not be poison archetypes since it isn't that popular or good in PFS. But there have been a fairly strong urge by people to want it.. so I think there is a decent chance of at least one poison ish build somewhere in that.

Edit about Daggermark poisoner i just noticed:
You can pick up poison trap, and then launch trap via their abilities. They also get trapster. These all combine.
So. your poison trap;s DC is set by 10 + the Guild poisoner's class level + her Intelligence modifier (mudane version is whatever poison you use). Then you add in Trapster class ability to add 1-3 to the DC. then you can switch out sneak attack damage for more poison DC buffs.
Launch Trap feature can work with cross, arrrow, or thrown. So this would also stack with the scout rogue idea.
if built from an alchemist, then if you made your own poisons and used the level buffs to up the DC more you could make some really good poison DCs. You could make some pretty hard DC crafted ability damage poisons. If put on a thrown weapon with the Intxhits you can get a few hits out of it.

[Tangaroa]

Another option would be to suggest to the alchemist to take blinding bombs. Blinding bombs would help enable the rogue, as opposed to shutting him down. This is what I did playing an alchemist with a rogue at our table (I also had stinkbombs, but I took blinding bombs specifically to help the rogue shine).

[N. Jolly]

Feral wrote:

The alchemist is super optimized and the rogue is not.

Either nerf the alchemist or buff the rogue.

It doesn't really sound like the Alchemist is super optimized at all, Stink Bomb Alch is a pretty basic design.

There's a LOT of problems with making poisons work:

1. Damage per round at BEST: Any poison that cost more than 100 a dose is only generally doing upwards of 1d6 ability damage, and nothing on a successful save, and Fort is most creature's good save. The amount of damage you can do without hit and run is barely passable.

2. Only good poison is Poison Converted Drow Poison: The stink bomb is knocking out nearly, as would this combination, so it's basically a save or lose. Again, unless you can hit and run for like a minute or so for a per round poison to actually take effect, you're not going to do anything, especially with the painfully low DCs.

3. Alchemist get the only two things that make poisons semi viable, Poison Conversion and Celestial Poison: Being able to make things into inhaled poisons is the only viable method of raising DC, which unless you're using 100 GP or lower poisons, is going to get expensive fast. Celestial Poison at least lets you use these on fiends and such (undead don't breathe), so that by a certain level you're not worthless on your specialty, and these still don't work on others.

4. Cost for poisons and base DCs: Already covered, but worth noting again. No base poison is worth its cost EVER. Poisons scale like garbage, and when you're buying Black Lotus casually, opponents can make the check without blinking.

Here's my section for helping with poisons in my alchemist guide, but it probably won't help a lot. Your best bet is making a lot of homebrew or just having them play another Alchemist, as they're really superior to Rogues in most ways.

[Blakmane]

Your alchemist has done nothing wrong. Don't worry about him. Focus on helping the rogue. The basic issue is that poisons suck.

If you are PFS/RAW, you need to convince him to rebuild. If you aren't, consider homebrewing some stuff like more potent poisons that might also target will saves rather than straight fort.

The 3.0 exalted deeds book had something called 'ravages' which were basically poisons that also effected evil enemies regardless of poison immunity. You could probably come up with similar concepts to help bypass poison immunity.

[StreamOfTheSky]

N. Jolly wrote:

3. Alchemist get the only two things that make poisons semi viable, Poison Conversion and Celestial Poison: Being able to make things into inhaled poisons is the only viable method of raising DC, which unless you're using 100 GP or lower poisons, is going to get expensive fast. Celestial Poison at least lets you use these on fiends and such (undead don't breathe), so that by a certain level you're not worthless on your specialty, and these still don't work on others.

They also get Sticky Poison, which can easily cut the price per injury poison delivery to 1/5 the normal amount or thereabouts (actual reduction depends on Int mod), making the rogue player's schtick almost approaching cost-viable.

Not to mention Alchemists also get the ability to create poisons and apply them to a weapon MUCH faster than the rules normally allow, and Poison Use and Poison save bonuses (later immunity) and a good base fort save. Alchemist is just....soooooo much better at this. As well he should be, poison is pretty specifically within the alchemist/apothecary type tropes.

One thing though...rogue can get poison conversion, too. Well, it's effectively the same thing. Requires a skill check but also comes 3 levels earlier than poison conversion for alchemist:

Quote:

Master Poisoner (Ex)

At 3rd level, a poisoner can use Craft (alchemy) to change the type of a poison. This requires 1 hour of work with an alchemist’s lab and a Craft (alchemy) skill check with a DC equal to the poison’s DC. If successful, the poison’s type changes to contact, ingested, inhaled, or injury. If the check fails, the poison is ruined. The poisoner also receives a bonus on Craft (alchemy) skill checks when working with poison equal to 1/2 her rogue level.

This ability replaces trap sense.

[Rynjin]

Effectively, except takes 60 times as long, doesn't require a check, and has no chance of failure (thus wasting the poison).

[Thomas Long 175]

Yeah, the rogue picked a class that's at the very least on the weaker side, then picked one of the weakest styles in the game. He's not going to do well.

[Rhatahema]

You haven't mentioned if the clouds are hampering the rogue's ability to engage in combat, but a necklace of adaptation (9k) combined with either a goz mask or fog-cutting lenses (8k) will allow him to operate within a stinking cloud at no penalty (save that the fog-cutting lenses impose a -4 perception penalty). Frontovik's Gas Mask covers both effects in a single slot for the same price (17k) and only imposes a -2 on perception checks, but you need to be in a cloud to see through it, and it's a WWI gas mask.

A high wind environment will dissipate clouds without affecting injury poison, but it's not a trick you'll want to pull more than a couple sessions.

The biggest issue seems to be that you have a character who's specialization (debuffing vs fort save) is being covered more effectively by a more versatile character. Rebuilding vivisectionist makes sense, or even a rogue/vivisectionist for sneak attack archetypes. But you might also talk to the player about shelving the character until a time when there's less overlap in the party. Two characters targeting the same weakness is just hard to balance.

[Rynjin]

Rynjin wrote:

Effectively, except takes 60 times as long, doesn't require a check, and has no chance of failure (thus wasting the poison).

My bad, reversed those last two. Should be "requires a check, and has a chance of failure (thus wasting the poison)".

Got my wires crossed and started describing the Poison Conversion ability instead.

[insaneogeddon]

Ability Focus +2 DCS as a feat (give it for free if he really has been focusing)

Have a caster cast minor creation for infinite free poisions and double the doses!

[Mystically Inclined]

I've looked at using poisons for my ninja before. Honestly, I think the best way to handle it in a home game is to give the Rogue a pet. Create a custom creature that is known for its incredibly deadly poison bite, and have the poison get deadlier as the creature grows. Then have the party come across a nest, and have an egg hatch just as the Rogue investigates (or make the Rogue the first thing the creature sees). Once the creature imprints on the Rogue, it'll follow the party around trying to stay with its 'mommy.'

This is way to introduce a custom poison with a DC that can scale as the party levels up (and the creature gets older). Instead of spending rediculous amounts of money buying poison on the black market, the Rogue can milk the creature of its poison every night. You can add a lower cost to the poison by saying that the creature needs special materials as part of its growth cycle, which the Rogue must purchase if he wants it to continue producing poison.

Going a step further, you can houserule that the alchemist is able to use its conversion ability on this poison for a variety of effects, with the understanding that this is to be done as a favor for the Rogue (rather than making the alchemist stronger).

[Rub-Eta]

I'm just gonna echo here: Rogue and poison alone are considered underpowered in Pathfinder and is a poor combination.

The Alchemist is using up resources, Cognatogen + Bombs. For him to take the Stink Bomb Discovery he also needs Smoke Bomb Discovery. His "strategy" is very legit and shouldn't be nerfed.
However, if it breaks your game you could ask him to rebuild his character.

But that won't help the Rogue. You can either make a few buffs for poison. Or you can ask the Rogue if he wants to rebuild.

[blackbloodtroll]

Like a full Monk focusing on spellcasting, the Rogue class was the wrong choice for this concept.

Let him swap his Rogue levels for Vivisectionist levels, or even Slayer.

[Ganryu]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Like a full Monk focusing on spellcasting, the Rogue class was the wrong choice for this concept.

Let him swap his Rogue levels for Vivisectionist levels, or even Slayer.

Which is quite counterintuitive.

Rogue should be THE poison class.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ganryu wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Like a full Monk focusing on spellcasting, the Rogue class was the wrong choice for this concept.

Let him swap his Rogue levels for Vivisectionist levels, or even Slayer.

Which is quite counterintuitive.

Rogue should be THE poison class.

It's not.

I also don't see what is counter-intuitive.

The concept is the same. The name of a class does not define you.

[Zwordsman]

I dunno I've always seen rogues as the quick moving precise strike rather than poison or item user. But most games i've played books i've read etc, the rogue was that kind of thing.

but yup, classes just give skil types not who you are.

Sidenote: the best poison I've come up with

Human with that one feat that lets you take other racial stuff, for that snake class to up DC's of poisons you create (I'm still wondering if create means anything you do that creats, or if it just meant craft)
Alchemist 6 or10 (vivi or not is your call, though vivi stacks better lv 10 is for malignant poison, which adds 4 to DC)
Daggermark poison 3 or 5 (3 for trick and speedier poison making. 5 if going thte sneak attack route )
Rogue or Shadow dancer 3 (this is for the rogue talent that allows you to apply two poisons on a single blade. Thatgives you two poisons or increases poison DC by 2 if you use same one)
then i guess alchemist or daggermark depending on how you want it to go.

Note: Daggermark poisoner has an ability caleld combine poison. description sounds like deadly cocktail the rogue talent.. I wonder if it has the same effects? if so that'd be nice to drop the rogue/shadow levels

This works best with throwing daggers/weapon finesse though. Still hits the same issues as rogue alone though, in that to hit is gonna be pretttyy suck in exchange for various abilities to up the poison DC.

If money/poison supply isn't a problem you could get poison trap and launch trap from Dagger mark (4 lvs i think) then each day make several poison trap-ranged weapons. Build out of scout rogue (maybe bits in alchemist class for those poison class skills) so you get sneak attack. then keep moving and once a round throw a ranged weapon with sneak attack on it, and when you throw one with the poison trap on it, sack your sneak attack for poison DC, and add in the trap's DC bonus buff, and net yourself +5-10 DC at later levels depending on how your sneak attack turns out.

but outside of the above weird ideas (both of which has plenty of problems, it's just hyper focused on increasing poison ability)

There are a ton more useful poisons out with the recent alchemical manual and such. Though it's not listed on the main website, they are on nethys. With the Int x hits and maybe the double applications via rogue talent, you can get pretty decent DCs from lv 6-10ish. Higher levels are quite problematic though, and I don't know enough to guess anything on that.

[insaneogeddon]

He should change race to be a poisoner:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/uncommonRaces/vishkany as.html

Vishkanyas have access to the following equipment.

Poison Tattoo: This henna-like paste creates a dark brown tattoo on the hands or feet that fades over the next 2d6 days. The tattoo temporarily boosts the strength of a vishkanya's natural poison, increasing the DC of the next weapon envenomed with the vishkanya's blood or saliva by +2 (once used, the tattoo is merely decorative and does not affect the creature's poison). A typical tattoo consists of intricate whorls and spiritual symbols on the hands or feet.

Sleep Venom
You can change the nature of your toxic spittle to put your enemies to sleep.
Prerequisite: Vishkanya.
Benefit: As a swift action, you may alter the effects of your venom so the target falls unconscious. This changes the initial and secondary effect of your venom to the following: initial effect staggered for 1d4 rounds; secondary effect unconsciousness for 1 minute. You must make the decision to alter your venom before you apply it to a weapon.
Normal: Vishkanya venom deals Dexterity damage.

Milk yourself on days off ;)

[Secret Wizard]

I just want to confirm there is a new Poisoner archertype for Rogues on the Advanced Class Guide.

Also, yeah, Alchemists are good and Rogues aren't that much... maybe the Rogue could focus on being the social poisoner though. Are you allowing your Rogue to kill off NPCs for fun and profit?

[Zwordsman]

Secret Wizard wrote:

I just want to confirm there is a new Poisoner archertype for Rogues on the Advanced Class Guide.

Also, yeah, Alchemists are good and Rogues aren't that much... maybe the Rogue could focus on being the social poisoner though. Are you allowing your Rogue to kill off NPCs for fun and profit?

We have no clue anywhere for archetypes yet.

we're guessing at least.

I like to think some archetype of some class will have poison... Its just my belief