Hi I was wondering how some people got so many attacks in per round
(example)
Level 11, two +1 reliable D-B pistols, 24 Dex (+7), with Haste and Rapid Shot, TWFing :
BAB : +11/+6/+1
Ranged, TWFing (+7-4=+3): +14/+9/+4 +14/+9
Damage : 1d8+Dex+1+3d6 = 1d8+8+3d6
=> Haste (+1) and Rapid Shot (-2), +1 weapons : +14/+14/+14/+9/+4 +14/+9
=> Double Tapping the shots : (+10/+10)/(+10/+10)/(+10/+10)/(+5/+5)/(+0/+0) (+10/+10)/(+5/+5)
14 potential attacks with the most cheesing possible full-attack (not including any build with secondary naturral attacks). Your BAB sucks like a vacuum cleaner, but you are unleashing hell on your foes, and against their Touch AC. Beware of misfires, they will happen a lot and you risk explosion if you misfire on both attacks of a single double tap shot, so find yourself some good reliable weapons asap.
With Signature Deed, you have a potential 14d8+112+42d6 before any critical hit (but will never ever see it without being at least immune to misfire, and even then, it is statistically ridiculously low).
To reload, keep a free hand with a weapon cord and alternate main-hand/off-hand each round, or find yourself a glove of storing.
(quote by Maxximilius here http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n2z6?Optimizing-Gunslinger-build )
I understand the instant action reload but how does one get so many shots and reloads in a single round?
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I missed the Rules Question.
It is possible to get in a lot of attacks, but as you stated, until you can ignore misfire completely it's a moot point. And that usually won't happen until 11th-13th level, so you have to find a way to survive those lower levels. Part of why I think these questions come up all the time is when people start high level campaigns with level 10+ characters. If you didn't have to go through the lower levels, then of course you're going to start out wrecking face.
Weapon cords require a move action now (it used to be a swift action), so they are no longer viable for a full attacking TWF build. The Glove of Storing still works, but it adds another, what, 8000gp to your costs? And yes, you could get Vestigial Arms, but that delays Signature Deed by 2 levels. Same thing if you grow a prehensile moustache.
Don't pay much attention to these cheesy builds. The only thing they're good for is inciting the messageboards.
You can spin and juggle a small firearm, making it difficult to predict where you will shoot.
Prerequisite(s): Amateur Gunslinger feat or grit class feature, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus.
Benefit(s): You can spend 1 grit point to make a feint attempt using a one-handed firearm for which you have Weapon Focus (instead of a melee weapon). The target of this feint must be within 30 feet of you and be able to see you.
If you have the Quick Draw feat, you can holster a one-handed firearm as a free action as long as you have at least 1 grit point.
Note especially the last line. So, by that level you should either have lightning reload/quick reload/alchemical cartridges in some way as to be able to reload as a free action, that just means what do you do with the gun? Well, that feat lets you holster your gun as a free action. So holster your gun, reload your other gun fire, etc. Me personally, I take the flavor text and say my gunslinger throws the guns in the air as she reloads and fires the other one, literally juggling the guns (which also then plays into why the feint works... can you imagine someone juggling and firing two guns like that?) Mechanically it's the same as her holstering then redrawing, but it sounds cooler.
I missed the Rules Question.
It is possible to get in a lot of attacks, but as you stated, until you can ignore misfire completely it's a moot point. And that usually won't happen until 11th-13th level, so you have to find a way to survive those lower levels. Part of why I think these questions come up all the time is when people start high level campaigns with level 10+ characters. If you didn't have to go through the lower levels, then of course you're going to start out wrecking face.
Weapon cords require a move action now (it used to be a swift action), so they are no longer viable for a full attacking TWF build. The Glove of Storing still works, but it adds another, what, 8000gp to your costs? And yes, you could get Vestigial Arms, but that delays Signature Deed by 2 levels. Same thing if you grow a prehensile moustache.
Don't pay much attention to these cheesy builds. The only thing they're good for is inciting the messageboards.
Could it still be achieved with signature deed lightning reload? also if so (assuming you dont have to worry about jams) how do you get that many attacks in the first place? another question what would change if I had revolvers?
Lightning reload doesn't help at all, you need a free hand to reload which means 3 hands for 2 guns or some trick which only has one hand with a gun in it at a time.
Could it still be achieved with signature deed lightning reload? also if so (assuming you dont have to worry about jams) how do you get that many attacks in the first place? another question what would change if I had revolvers?
If I could afford the gloves it would work though? also my original question was never answered I still dont understand how the absurd amount of attacks is done.
D-B and double tapping are references to double-barreled pistols. Double your attacks for a -4 penalty. Ironically using revolvers are in some ways a downgrade for a high level gunslinger, since there are no double-barreled revolvers.
The free action aspect of gun twirling can be replicated by a glove of storing, so that saves you three feats for TWF pistol reloading.
Design Manager
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If I could afford the gloves it would work though? also my original question was never answered I still dont understand how the absurd amount of attacks is done.Lightning reload doesn't help at all, you need a free hand to reload which means 3 hands for 2 guns or some trick which only has one hand with a gun in it at a time.
Could it still be achieved with signature deed lightning reload? also if so (assuming you dont have to worry about jams) how do you get that many attacks in the first place? another question what would change if I had revolvers?
Assuming you had the Glove of Storing, it would be:
Start with two weapons in hand. Shoot monster in face with main hand. Store off-hand as free action, free action reload, shoot monster in face, repeat for all main hand iteratives. Return off-hand weapon as free action, swap weapon hands as free action, store main-hand gun as free action, swap weapon back to off-hand as free action, take iteratives as above, swap hands as free action, resummon gun as free action so you can start the next turn with two weapons in hand. Or something like that.
If I could afford the gloves it would work though? also my original question was never answered I still dont understand how the absurd amount of attacks is done.Lightning reload doesn't help at all, you need a free hand to reload which means 3 hands for 2 guns or some trick which only has one hand with a gun in it at a time.
Could it still be achieved with signature deed lightning reload? also if so (assuming you dont have to worry about jams) how do you get that many attacks in the first place? another question what would change if I had revolvers?
Assuming you had the Glove of Storing, it would be:
Start with two weapons in hand. Shoot monster in face with main hand. Store off-hand as free action, free action reload, shoot monster in face, repeat for all main hand iteratives. Return off-hand weapon as free action, swap weapon hands as free action, store main-hand gun as free action, swap weapon back to off-hand as free action, take iteratives as above, swap hands as free action, resummon gun as free action so you can start the next turn with two weapons in hand. Or something like that.
but what determines how many time it can be done?
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Design Manager
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but what determines how many time it can be done?If I could afford the gloves it would work though? also my original question was never answered I still dont understand how the absurd amount of attacks is done.Lightning reload doesn't help at all, you need a free hand to reload which means 3 hands for 2 guns or some trick which only has one hand with a gun in it at a time.
Could it still be achieved with signature deed lightning reload? also if so (assuming you dont have to worry about jams) how do you get that many attacks in the first place? another question what would change if I had revolvers?
Assuming you had the Glove of Storing, it would be:
Start with two weapons in hand. Shoot monster in face with main hand. Store off-hand as free action, free action reload, shoot monster in face, repeat for all main hand iteratives. Return off-hand weapon as free action, swap weapon hands as free action, store main-hand gun as free action, swap weapon back to off-hand as free action, take iteratives as above, swap hands as free action, resummon gun as free action so you can start the next turn with two weapons in hand. Or something like that.
There is no limit on free actions other than GM fiat, so as long as you have enough attacks thanks to iteratives, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc., and the ability to reload as a free action, you can make all of the attacks those abilities would grant you while firing both barrels.
There is no limit on free actions other than GM fiat, so as long as you have enough attacks thanks to iteratives, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, etc., and the ability to reload as a free action, you can make all of the attacks those abilities would grant you while firing both barrels.but what determines how many time it can be done?If I could afford the gloves it would work though? also my original question was never answered I still dont understand how the absurd amount of attacks is done.Lightning reload doesn't help at all, you need a free hand to reload which means 3 hands for 2 guns or some trick which only has one hand with a gun in it at a time.
Could it still be achieved with signature deed lightning reload? also if so (assuming you dont have to worry about jams) how do you get that many attacks in the first place? another question what would change if I had revolvers?
Assuming you had the Glove of Storing, it would be:
Start with two weapons in hand. Shoot monster in face with main hand. Store off-hand as free action, free action reload, shoot monster in face, repeat for all main hand iteratives. Return off-hand weapon as free action, swap weapon hands as free action, store main-hand gun as free action, swap weapon back to off-hand as free action, take iteratives as above, swap hands as free action, resummon gun as free action so you can start the next turn with two weapons in hand. Or something like that.
okay thanks that was what I was looking for, could someone list all the feats/other ways to get more attacks?
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Design Manager
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I still don't see how you "swap weapon hands as free action". You can take a hand off a weapon or put a hand on a weapon as a free action, but if you have a pistol in your right hand and one in your left hand, you can't grab the left hand pistol with your right hand because you've already got a pistol in your right hand. You can't hold both guns in one hand, because if you could do that you wouldn't need the glove.
At this exact moment, IRL, I'm holding two roughly gun shaped and weighted items in each hand. Now I'm holding them in the opposite hands. Did it again.... It's a free action to move things from one hand to another. I'm taking two free actions to move my guns from one hand to the other, which both conforms to game expectations and what a person can reasonably do in real life (though I defy a person IRL to actually fire and reload a muzzle-loading black powder weapon twice in real life).
The point being, both the rules and simulation allow you to carry and move items between your hands, and while there may technically be a split second there where the weapons aren't being wielded (excellent time to execute a readied action?), there's nothing preventing you from switching hands simultaneously, or even holding both pistols in one arm.
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Design Manager
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I find that when one is already abusing RAW to one's advantage, adding in a "this bit isn't explicitly RAW, but I can do it in real life, so it's OK" doesn't really help the argument.
I'm also amused by this
As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).
You misunderstand. I hate the TWF double-barreled Pistolero and he's explicitly banned at my home table. But it's allowed in PFS and I've had the argument enough times from the other side that I think it's helpful for people to know what the rules are that are allowing this combination and where the weak points are.
Free actions, as mentioned, are GM fiat. That FAQ isn't really a FAQ at all, because it isn't a clarification of the rules, it just reiterates an existing rule and suggests something reasonable. It was kind of a half-assed attempt to give GMs the tools to deal with precisely this situation. I say half-assed, because it's useless in PFS, and in home games GM's can already make that call and are explicitly empowered to do so.