Goblin Squad Member
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It would be very interesting to hear what is missing from the game in the current alpha in order for it to be at the stage where it's ready for EE. If any goblin has the time to provide a simple list I am sure it would be much appreciated.
It would both give an indication of what will be in the game at EE and a countdown checklist to see how development is progressing :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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yep
No....no...NO!
I don't want to have to rewrite the code, I want to enter the Options menu and select Key Controls and then select and click a new key to bind to. The same as in every other game.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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yepNo....no...NO!
I don't want to have to rewrite the code, I want to enter the Options menu and select Key Controls and then select and click a new key to bind to. The same as in every other game.
Not in Alpha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I want to enter the Options menu and select Key Controls and then select and click a new key to bind to.
It appears, since there is another viable system, that that's not Minimum Viable Product. I'm a southpaw--thus very interested in the topic--but I'm willing to take the longer route and allow them to spend their resources elsewhere until later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Playing the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game with my wife! We just finished up Adventure Deck 5, Sins of the Saviors.You certainly have been playing a lot then... I guess you have Skull and Shackles ordered?
We subscribed :)
We also just found Class Decks!
It would be very interesting to hear what is missing from the game in the current alpha in order for it to be at the stage where it's ready for EE. If any goblin has the time to provide a simple list I am sure it would be much appreciated.
Aaaaaaaaand Away We Go! is probably what you're looking for.
On a related note, do the "turn" keys turn into "strafe" when the RMB is held?
Yes.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I am working on a bunch of material that will eventually become a blog about what we are going to get done in Alpha and therefore what the game state will be when we begin Early Enrollment but I want to be sure those estimates are solid before we describe them. I would like to do a little underpromise/overdeliver instead of the converse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Glad to see everything progressing!
I think the Bonny Adventures is a good idea, though I hope you take it as an opportunity to educate and excite people about the universe they are playing in. "Hey, look! There is a bonecrusher goblin! Did you know they worship so and so? Yep! Not to mention they were involved such and such in 4708 AR. A prize to the first person that can tell me what other big event happened that year!" Etc etc That is the sort of stuff that will the game environment interesting and unique, and you can still be learning the mechanics at the same time! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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After watching Nihimon play for about a half-hour to forty minutes or so, I'm not so certain this game can't be played solo with a wizard.
I watched him aggro at least 7 Ogres and he just kited them in a circle, killing them all.
In another fight, he actually took some damage, because the mobs had ranged weapons. He was down to about 40% health when he finally defeated them.
I would like to see how a solo melee can handle solo, but I'm doubtful they can to any degree that a ranged character can.
I'm also hoping that every Mob group has at least one or two ranged combatants. They seem to be the only thing that players really have to worry about.
Other than that concern, the Alpha is looking really good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After watching Nihimon play for about a half-hour to forty minutes or so, I'm not so certain this game can't be played solo with a wizard.
I watched him aggro at least 7 Ogres and he just kited them in a circle, killing them all.
I'm not sure they're going to spend the effort to make the AI hard enough so that a good kiter can't solo large groups of non-ranged mobs. PvE isn't really where the game's heart is anyway.
What they could do fairly easily is put 3 or 4 ranged (35m) mobs in each "large" group. I simply can't take 3 archers hitting me for more than a very short period of time or I get slowed so much that the melee catch me, and it's all over.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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We're working on getting some ranged attack animations for the ogres to mix in some javelin hurlers. Most other monster types have some form of ranged attacker. Those that don't have such a member attack and move fast enough that you have to kite really well for them not to get some attacks off.
In general, kiting is still more effective than intended for a lot of reasons. In addition to adding ammo and line of sight, we've also talked about adding a rear-arc deadzone while you're moving (while stationary, you'd auto-rotate to the target), so you have to move at a slower back-up or strafe to attack someone chasing you. That may be a while, as it has a lot of tech dependencies and I don't believe it's currently in the queue.
Clearly the AI needs to get better as well, and will improve iteratively as we have time to devote programming cycles to it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even with ranged enemies mixed in you can kite straight backwards and the ranged attackers will fall out of range when they stop to fire while the charging melee types keep moving and thus remain in range. They'll eventually tether, but then you can continue firing while charging after them and repeat. Then once all the melee types are gone you can usually pick off the few remaining ranged attackers or charge and melee them. Takes longer than circle kiting, but still gets the job done.
Restoring targets to full health immediately or making them temporarily immune to damage when they tether would help. It looks like health increases after tethering, but not fast enough to save them. Reducing the 'run backwards' speed so that the melee types could catch you would also make a big difference.
The other thing which makes kiting so safe/effective right now is that the mobs don't move unless they have been aggro'd. Even when groups are tightly clustered you can look at the mini-map and find a kiting path that keeps you from triggering any other assailants. If some mobs were wandering about there would always be the danger of backing up into an ogre while kiting away from a goblin.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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They're not actually leashing. They just lose threat at a certain rate after the initial aggro, so eventually they drop threat towards you to 0 and go back if you're not hurting them very much and they're not hurting you. But they should follow you indefinitely (or at least until they die) if you do damage faster than they lose threat.
The amount they heal while they run back is just the accelerated out of combat healing that everyone gets.
But, yeah, AI needs to get better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In general, kiting is still more effective than intended for a lot of reasons. In addition to adding ammo and line of sight, we've also talked about adding a rear-arc deadzone while you're moving...
This won't stop experienced kiters. Cheatle brought this up last night, and I was demonstrating to him on my livestream that, when I'm circle-kiting, it's actually quite easy for me to have my character facing the mobs I'm attacking, even to the point where they're probably within a 60 degree arc in front of me. Changing back-up speed isn't going to impact that either.
The only thing so far that makes a significant impact on whether or not I can take a camp is the presence of multiple archers. If there will still be 3 archers hitting me after my alpha strike, I'm going to die unless I just run away right after that alpha strike. Even 2 archers hitting me after my alpha strike will make me sweat.
The other thing I've noticed is the Ogres using a Roar of some type while I'm kiting them. If that Roar included a slowing effect, I'd probably already be unable to effectively kite large camps of them.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The purpose of the mobs is to be farmed for loot. They don't produce XP.
While it may be unsatisfying to be killing mobs that are dumb, the opponents you need to be worried about won't be dumb. They'll be other humans. The tactics that work against the dumb AI mobs won't work against coordinated groups of human opponents.
This is similar to the situation in EVE where for many, many years the "rats" - AI mobs - were dumb as stumps. It was OK because people treated them as resources to be farmed not challenges to be overcome. There were enough human threats to make the lack of AI for the mobs tolerable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The purpose of the mobs is to be farmed for loot. They don't produce XP.
That's the ticket. I'd been wondering about the lack of challenge myself, but that puts it into perfect context. We need to stop thinking of the mobs as opponents, and think of them as resource nodes that bite back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While it may be unsatisfying to be killing mobs that are dumb, the opponents you need to be worried about won't be dumb. They'll be other humans. The tactics that work against the dumb AI mobs won't work against coordinated groups of human opponents.
I can understand and completely accept that distinction, but it seems somewhat at odds with what the designers are telling us:
Yep, to second Tork, the goal with creature AI* is that it doesn't teach you wrong for PvP.
For my part, I'm perfectly willing to accept dumb, kitable mobs that aren't really much of a challenge for me. I killed about 700 of 'em last night :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The thing is, some of us want the PvE to be challenging. Not because I enjoy PvE, but because the Dynamic of Escalations trying to damage Settlements while Players try to take Settlements seems very awesome.
Besides that, Bluddwolf, I was able to tank 2 archers and 3-4 additional mobs while using the Tumble Utility, the Defense Boosting Shield abilities, and getting my Reflex to 43 while in Pot Plate. I think I have around 600 hit points as well.
I usually just charge the Archers, kill them first, but watch out because some of those mobs have sneak attack now, and when they attack me from behind they seem to be doing a lot more damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The thing is, some of us want the PvE to be challenging. Not because I enjoy PvE, but because the Dynamic of Escalations trying to damage Settlements while Players try to take Settlements seems very awesome.
Besides that, Bluddwolf, I was able to tank 2 archers and 3-4 additional mobs while using the Tumble Utility, the Defense Boosting Shield abilities, and getting my Reflex to 43 while in Pot Plate. I think I have around 600 hit points as well.
I usually just charge the Archers, kill them first, but watch out because some of those mobs have sneak attack now, and when they attack me from behind they seem to be doing a lot more damage.
Cool thanks Cheatle, I'm hopeful that PFO does turn into the first few months of Age 0f Conan (AOC) who's acronym was translate to "Age of Casters".
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Goblin Squad Member
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... some of those mobs have sneak attack now, and when they attack me from behind they seem to be doing a lot more damage.
If they're doing more damage just because they're behind you, you should probably bug it. I believe they're only supposed to do more damage because you're targeting something else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think back to Ultima Online when people bring the topic of "PvE is too easy" up. In Ultima Online, PvE was also very easy. Though it wasn't used solely as an escalation design and there was a lot of variety; dungeons, a plethora of mob types, special spawn locations, etc. If a player wanted to make their livelihood being a monster hunter/adventurer they had that option. And because the mobs in Ultima Online dropped money/loot it added to the danger of the world; players were constantly afraid that another player would kill them for the loot they just spent an hour farming at their favorite spawn location.
In seems, from what I've observed in alpha, that the mobs being "dumb" isn't the problem. It's the lack of variety, coupled with escalation cycles feeling somewhat similar to those terrible quests in WOW (kill 100 rats). Though escalations seem interesting, I hope that's not what all PvE revolves around. There should be, in my opinion, a reasonable way for a PvE focused player to make a living and contribute to society other than just doing "kill 100 rat" quests/escalations. For me that kind of thing is a theme park concept and totally takes away from the individual freedoms of a sandbox player. When I rid a camp of villainous orcs and I don't get something relatively cool, something feels inherently wrong.
tl;dr
In my opinion, PvE being too easy isn't the problem. Rather the lack of variety, risk vs. reward, "theme park" like design, and limiting player's individual freedoms are the real culprits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree, after watching the whole 3 hours of Adventuring with Bonny, I came away with three impressions:
1. PvE is too easy
2. Too much of an advantage for being a Wizard.
3. No incentive for PvP or too much penalty for PvP.
Having access to more PvP will solve all three of those problems.
While PvEing the groups will have to be wary of getting jumped by pvpers
Groups will have to become more diverse. Won't be effective with 80% or more Wizards in a party.
I'd love to see a group try to run through an escalation and then get ambushed by a PvP group.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think back to Ultima Online when people bring the topic of "PvE is too easy" up. In Ultima Online, PvE was also very easy. Though it wasn't used solely as an escalation design and there was a lot of variety; dungeons, a plethora of mob types, special spawn locations, etc. If a player wanted to make their livelihood being a monster hunter/adventurer they had that option. And because the mobs in Ultima Online dropped money/loot it added to the danger of the world; players were constantly afraid that another player would kill them for the loot they just spent an hour farming at their favorite spawn location.
In seems, from what I've observed in alpha, that the mobs being "dumb" isn't the problem. It's the lack of variety, coupled with escalation cycles feeling somewhat similar to those terrible quests in WOW (kill 100 rats). Though escalations seem interesting, I hope that's not what all PvE revolves around. There should be, in my opinion, a reasonable way for a PvE focused player to make a living and contribute to society other than just doing "kill 100 rat" quests/escalations. For me that kind of thing is a theme park concept and totally takes away from the individual freedoms of a sandbox player. When I rid a camp of villainous orcs and I don't get something relatively cool, something feels inherently wrong.
tl;dr
In my opinion, PvE being too easy isn't the problem. Rather the lack of variety, risk vs. reward, "theme park" like design, and limiting player's individual freedoms are the real culprits.
I'd be really interested to hear an alpha player's take on this! Do you feel like the escalations are "fun" or does it seem more like a grind fest? How do you feel about loot rewards in regard to PvE? After finishing a PvE encounter was there a real sense of accomplishment? Was this accomplishment reflected by in game reinforcement?
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Well I think there are many variables to this, but all in all I agree with everyone here that from what I have seen the PvE does look a bit to easy from the Alpha Streams. Some things to consider though...
1.) It's Alpha
2.) The Entire Bestiaries aren't added yet
3.) The lvl creatures opposed to the lvl PCs seem to be vastly in the PC's favor as far as power scale is concerned.
Somethings that might help
1.) Maybe have it to where when a player enters a Hex it triggers the mobs for that hex to spawn on equal par with what lvl the player may be. And each additional person that enters it spawns additional or same type mobs based on that new person. Have like an hr cool down timer on it so players can't exploit and spawn a biggelion mobs into one single hex.
2.) Cycling of mob types in the Hex
3.) Maybe a randomize mob spawn that could be something that a whole group of players need to take down like a high lvl boss fight randomly spawning that any passerby's would probably die if they tried to solo
4.) Number crunching on the mobs in general (don't ask me what they should be I hate math)
5.) Faster Spawning mobs battle of attrition for the PCs (probably a bad idea, but an idea none the less
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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A little expectations setting about the creatures in the game right now:
In addition to their AI issues (which make them very easy to kite), the majority of them are level 1 or level 2. This doesn't make them equivalent to a level 1 or 2 character in power, just makes them slightly challenging for level 1 or 2 characters in a small-group-on-small-group situation.
When originally statting creatures, I pegged them to a newly Tier 2 character (approximately level 8 with minimal T2 gear). Under that schema, level 1 creatures are classified as "Trivial." It was expected that they'd ultimately be only a threat in really large numbers, or as distractions for harder monsters.
You get past being a level 1 character very quickly. Some of the characters that have been in the alpha the longest should be nearly level 8 (that's harder for a lot because achievements are somewhat challenging to get to that level, the roadmap isn't completely clear yet, and the lack of a market makes it hard to assemble T2 gear). But, in general, after your first few weeks, you're supposed to blow through goblins.
So perception of the ease of PvP right now does have a lot to do with trying to keep the escalations in the alpha newbie-friendly. They're easy because a lot of the characters involved are no longer new (and, secondarily, because adventures with Bonny feature way larger zergs than we anticipated for Alpha ;) ). Once we have a wider variety of escalation levels, groups will be free to find more challenging escalations that give out better loot as they improve in power, rather than having to slum it and handle escalations designed not to overwhelm level 1s.
And we're planning to get some harder ones in when we expand the map and open up more monster hexes for them to be based out of (but I don't know exactly when that will be).
We're also doing things like getting the Ogres a ranged attack and considering other modifications to account for the AI's weakness to kiting. It's a pretty gray balance area now, though, because we don't want to put in a lot of new modifications to control something that will become somewhat less viable when planned tech (like ammo) comes in. That is, I can tweak the numbers and attack effects, but it would be silly to ask programming for any new tech to improve something that will be improved by items already in their queue :) .