Are Emei Piercer's treated like Brass knuckles, d3 for unarmed strikes only


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Shadow Lodge

People have posted that brass knuckles have been errated and only do a d3 of damage with improved unarmed strikes.

I was wondering if the errata extends to all weapons that deal the character's damage for improved unarmed strikes.

Scarab Sages

Yes. Unless you have a class ability that changes the damage of the weapon it does damage as the weapon, not monk unarmed strike damage.

However, with Brawlers and Warpriests able to change the damage of weapons as a specific class ability, I'm really hoping this will be reversed.

Shadow Lodge

Where is this located, I can not find it? I haven't tried the U Combat errata yet. I've tried just about everywhere else.


Emei Piercer is an exotic light weapon that does a d3 piercing damage. There's nothing in the PRD table or description to change that, or infer that it should be changed, in the case of a monk...

Shadow Lodge

This is what it says in the emei description in the PRD:

"This weapon is used to augment unarmed martial techniques. It consists of an 8- to 10-inch-long, dual-pointed steel spike set on swivels and mounted on a ring, so that it can be spun around at high speeds when slipped over the wielder's ring finger. The ring prevents the wielder from being disarmed and turns unarmed strikes into piercing attacks."

This us what it says in the brass knuckles description in the PRD:

"These weapons fit snugly around the knuckles and allow you to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a successful concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles. Brass knuckles can't be disarmed."

They both post about dealing damage as unarmed strikes. What I see here is that most character's deal a d3 of damage. Monks and Brawlers both deal a little more damage with their unarmed strikes. Since, most characters deal a d3 of damage, that is the damage that is listed.

Both weapons talk about dealing out damage as an unarmed strike. That is why I have come up with my conclusion as to why monks and brawlers deal more damage with these weapons. All characters deal an unarmed strike. These items can be classified as dealing lethal damage with an unarmed strike. Therefore, any character using them, whether or not they are proficient, do not provoke an AoO.

The way these weapons as I read as written (RAW) is they do the damage of the unarmed strike of the character. The reason, the way the description of each weapon is written is they do the damage of unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes is what the character does.

If these weapons did the damage of a weapon instead of unarmed strikes, they would deal the damage of the weapon. Not the damage of unarmed strikes.


The brass knuckles were explicitly errata'd to only do their weapon damage, with a notification that it was an overarching rule for all weapons like them, that had the ability to use unarmed damage instead.

They simply never bothered updating the text for each one, as they realized that the various brawling aids and items were summarily rendered worthless.

The Brawler and Warpriest will supposedly be able to get more use out of them.

Shadow Lodge

Nocte ex Mortis wrote:

The brass knuckles were explicitly errata'd to only do their weapon damage, with a notification that it was an overarching rule for all weapons like them, that had the ability to use unarmed damage instead.

They simply never bothered updating the text for each one, as they realized that the various brawling aids and items were summarily rendered worthless.

The Brawler and Warpriest will supposedly be able to get more use out of them.

I thank you for chiming in, any idea of where this errata is? People keep posting there is an errata, I can't find it. I've looked in the FAQ for the CRB, UE, and the UC. I've looked for errata for all three, the UE I believe does not have one.


If they wanted you to use the monk's unarmed damage they would have it worded as such:

PRD APG wrote:
Brass Knuckles: These close combat weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch. They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

In discussions, after the Adventurer's Armory was reprinted and Ult. Equipment came out, both with the same newer language for Brass Knuckles:

PRD Ult Equip wrote:
Brass Knuckles: These weapons fit snugly around the knuckles and allow you to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a successful concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles. Brass knuckles can't be disarmed.

They removed the language stating that they used the monk's unarmed damage. If you search for several of the discussions, developers have stated this change was intentional and expect it to be put into the APG as soon as it is reprinted again.

Now, the Emei Piercers never had that language in to begin with, so no you would not get to use the monk's unarmed damage when using the weapon.

Shadow Lodge

Originally, my point was that unarmed strikes were done by a character, not the weapon. Since, both weapons imply you use them with unarmed strikes and not mentioning the weapon as doing the damage.

In the first sentence of the Emei Piercer, it reads that, "This weapon is used to augment unarmed martial techniques." The last six words in its description reads, "...turns unarmed strikes into piercing attacks." I gathered that the martial techniques augmented was the unarmed strikes.

The definitions of unarmed strike in the Core Rule Book (CRB) and in the UE both say an unarmed strike is done by a punch or a kick. Hence, I presumed the damage was done by what the character deals with an unarmed strike.

There have been a host of people that have given advice on this and other threads. I thank you all for your help and your patience. I will post another thread of my strategy for the character and ask for suggestions and wisdom. There are a number of you that understand the martial character options and I hope to read all your know how and what not there.

Once again I thank you all,

Ciao

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