Max Barbarian DR


Rules Questions


So am I right that the max DR for a Barbarian at level 20 is 29.

10 from Invulnerable Rager
3 from Improved Damage Resistance
6 from Dragon Totem with all 3 feats
10 from Improved Stalwart


there is a rage power that convert 1\rage damage to non leathal no ?


I still don't think Dragon Totem works that way.


The Dragon Totem rage powers I usually ignore, as Dragon Totem Resilience is worded badly. And I've never seen a good answer to if you really get DR 2/- added per rage power, if it only applies for the purpose of adding extra energy resistance or if it adds to your energy resistance.

This build does take 8 rage powers and 4 feats to complete, which is a heavy investment on the rage power side.

It looks to me like it works however, kind of. Also remember that double the DR is gained as an energy resistance to whatever one energy type you picked with the totem powers.

I find it weird how a raging barbarian would fight defensively...

EDIT:
After thinking about it a bit more, I am pretty sure you cannot benefit from Stalwart or Improved Stalwart while raging. Fighting defensively is basically the opposite of fighting with rage. Fighting defensively would require patience and/or concentration?


Barbarians don't lose points off their Int score while Raging.


Dragon totem does not give DR.

The other 23 DR/- is legitimate.

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Trekkie90909 wrote:

Dragon totem does not give DR.

The other 23 DR/- is legitimate.

Huh, what? Dragon Totem Resilience clearly states it adds DR 2/- per Dragon Totem power chosen.


Agreed, I'm not really sure where the alternate interpretation comes in.

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I've heard people try arguing that Stalwart and Improved Stalwart won't stack with the Invulnerable Rager, or that the Increased DR rage power won't stack with it either. Those are also silly arguments. Stalwart state it stacks with class based DR, and the Inv. Rager Archetype suggests Extra DR as a Rage Power.


The OP is talking about Stalwart the feat, not Stalwart Defender the prestige class. Stalwart specifically calls out the Barb's DR as something it stacks with.


Arachnofiend wrote:
The OP is talking about Stalwart the feat, not Stalwart Defender the prestige class. Stalwart specifically calls out the Barb's DR as something it stacks with.

Oops my mistake. Yes it stacks.


Stalwart stacks with Invulnerable Rager, but I would say it does not stack with the rage power DR/- increases, as they are not directly from a class feature. You can go one route or the other for 19 or 20 DR/-, but could not get both for DR/- 29. If you had a class feature that granted a spell that gave a DR boost, or feat that gave a DR boost(other than stalwart) I would say they wouldn't stack, and the same applies to Improved Damage Resistance and Dragon Resilience.


Calth wrote:
Stalwart stacks with Invulnerable Rager, but I would say it does not stack with the rage power DR/- increases, as they are not directly from a class feature. You can go one route or the other for 19 or 20 DR/-, but could not get both for DR/- 29. If you had a class feature that granted a spell that gave a DR boost, or feat that gave a DR boost(other than stalwart) I would say they wouldn't stack, and the same applies to Improved Damage Resistance and Dragon Resilience.

Rage Powers are a class feature of the barbarian.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:

Dragon totem does not give DR.

The other 23 DR/- is legitimate.

Huh, what? Dragon Totem Resilience clearly states it adds DR 2/- per Dragon Totem power chosen.

That's...not quite correct.

"While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one. A barbarian must have the dragon totem rage power and be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power."

Resilience adds Energy Resistance = DR/- from levels x2. Then "this DR increases but 2 for each Dragon Totem Rage Power she possesses".

It seems a bit of a non-sequitur to me that it suddenly increases your DR. In context, it looks more like it increases your DR for the purpose of the energy resistance.

I can see why some would think it increases your DR flat out, but it doesn't seem the intent of the ability from how it's worded.


Wind Chime wrote:
Calth wrote:
Stalwart stacks with Invulnerable Rager, but I would say it does not stack with the rage power DR/- increases, as they are not directly from a class feature. You can go one route or the other for 19 or 20 DR/-, but could not get both for DR/- 29. If you had a class feature that granted a spell that gave a DR boost, or feat that gave a DR boost(other than stalwart) I would say they wouldn't stack, and the same applies to Improved Damage Resistance and Dragon Resilience.
Rage Powers are a class feature of the barbarian.

The ability to gain Rage Powers is a class feature, the individual rage powers are not. If a fighter with DR and stalwart selected a feat that boosts DR with a bonus feat, would that stack with stalwart? I say no, and that is an exact parallel to this situation.

Edit: As for Dragon Resilience, RAW it increases the barbarians DR/-, but I do believe that it is a misprint and should be replaced with resistance, but that would be best to ask as a FAQ in a different thread.

Grand Lodge

Hmm... I think I am going to be satisfied with 20/- DR once per turn, 10/- DR the rest of the time, and keep 4 feats free for other barbarian brokenness.

(Bolster Resilience + immune to fatigue, and I don't take a -5 to attack and in the mean time, if I get stone skin cast on me, I can access the DR 20 earlier than 20th level. )


Stone skin doesn't work with your other DR. If you had DR 10/- stone skin is worse.


Wind Chime wrote:

So am I right that the max DR for a Barbarian at level 20 is 29.

10 from Invulnerable Rager
3 from Improved Damage Resistance
6 from Dragon Totem with all 3 feats
10 from Improved Stalwart

The thing is, Going Dragon Totem requires such a massive investment for what are ultimately diminishing returns. Take your DR from the other three options and then have additional feats and Rage Powers that improve other aspects of your character (offense, AC, saves, utility, etc.)

Also, I'm still waiting for a good answer on what happens at level 20 with Improved Stalwart - do you go from -5 attack and 10 DR to -6 attack and 10 DR, or does the attack penalty also become capped?

Personally, I'd like to see that silly limitation removed if only to pave the way for a legitimate DR 25. I like round numbers.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
Stone skin doesn't work with your other DR. If you had DR 10/- stone skin is worse.

Yes, when I have DR 10/- Stone skin is pointless.

That will happen some time around level 20.

Right now, at level 9, with DR 4, and the ability to double my DR whenever I see a crit coming, stone skin is occasionally really, really nice.

Needless to say, level 20 feels a long, long, long way away.


Hey I got a good idea Hit FAQ on my thread about Dragon Totem to help clarify what I believe is an editorial error.

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Calth wrote:
The ability to gain Rage Powers is a class feature, the individual rage powers are not.

Huh? What?

I completely disagree with this.


Again, I ask, would a fighter's feats from his bonus feats count as class features? Would the feats selected by a ranger from his combat style count as class features? Would a spell granted by a bloodline count as a class feature? I say no to all these, and they are the exact same as rage powers.

Class Feature X gives Ability Y which gives Effect Z, so X grants Y, but not directly Z, so I feel that Z is not an effect granted by X.


Calth wrote:

Again, I ask, would a fighter's feats from his bonus feats count as class features? Would the feats selected by a ranger from his combat style count as class features? Would a spell granted by a bloodline count as a class feature? I say no to all these, and they are the exact same as rage powers.

Class Feature X gives Ability Y which gives Effect Z, so X grants Y, but not directly Z, so I feel that Z is not an effect granted by X.

Uh, I'd actually say yes to all of those.


fretgod99 wrote:
Calth wrote:

Again, I ask, would a fighter's feats from his bonus feats count as class features? Would the feats selected by a ranger from his combat style count as class features? Would a spell granted by a bloodline count as a class feature? I say no to all these, and they are the exact same as rage powers.

Class Feature X gives Ability Y which gives Effect Z, so X grants Y, but not directly Z, so I feel that Z is not an effect granted by X.

Uh, I'd actually say yes to all of those.

If that's your interpretation that's fine, but I personally don't see any reason that the effects of a feat or spell granted by a class feature would count themselves as a class feature. Why should an abyssal sorcerer's stoneskin stack with stalwart while a draconic sorcerers would not. In fact, there are a lot of unintended consequences of allowing that type of extension. For example, a rogue with the Weapon Training talent gain +3 attack with gloves of dueling.

Shadow Lodge

I would argue that because Rage Powers are specific to the barbarian class[unlike "Spells" or "Feats" which aren't usually class-specific], are defined in the Barbarian Class [unlike Fighter-Specific feats, which are defined in the feat section of the book], and do not suggest that they aren't class features, that they are. Similarly, Revelations I would argue are Oracle class features, Discoveries are Alchemist class features, and Hexes are Witch class features.


Except they arent. There are multiple classes that can get rage powers(any with a domain), hexes can be gained by magi. It is the exact same chain of application, just because they get special names doesnt change how they are applied. You could change them all to feats with class requirements and have no applicable consequences, see grit feats.


Rynjin wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:

Dragon totem does not give DR.

The other 23 DR/- is legitimate.

Huh, what? Dragon Totem Resilience clearly states it adds DR 2/- per Dragon Totem power chosen.

That's...not quite correct.

"While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one. A barbarian must have the dragon totem rage power and be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power."

Resilience adds Energy Resistance = DR/- from levels x2. Then "this DR increases but 2 for each Dragon Totem Rage Power she possesses".

It seems a bit of a non-sequitur to me that it suddenly increases your DR. In context, it looks more like it increases your DR for the purpose of the energy resistance.

I can see why some would think it increases your DR flat out, but it doesn't seem the intent of the ability from how it's worded.

The telltale sign that this is a typo rather than the deliberate intent of the power is that there actually is no such thing as Damage Resistance. There is Damage Reduction, but the only 'resistance' is Energy Resistance.


Wiggz wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:

Dragon totem does not give DR.

The other 23 DR/- is legitimate.

Huh, what? Dragon Totem Resilience clearly states it adds DR 2/- per Dragon Totem power chosen.

That's...not quite correct.

"While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one. A barbarian must have the dragon totem rage power and be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power."

Resilience adds Energy Resistance = DR/- from levels x2. Then "this DR increases but 2 for each Dragon Totem Rage Power she possesses".

It seems a bit of a non-sequitur to me that it suddenly increases your DR. In context, it looks more like it increases your DR for the purpose of the energy resistance.

I can see why some would think it increases your DR flat out, but it doesn't seem the intent of the ability from how it's worded.

The telltale sign that this is a typo rather than the deliberate intent of the power is that there actually is no such thing as Damage Resistance. There is Damage Reduction, but the only 'resistance' is Energy Resistance.

Out of curiosity, if you believe that they got one word wrong and made Energy Resistance into Damage Resistance, why couldn't they have gotten a different word wrong and made Damage Reduction into Damage Resistance?


Ipslore the Red wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:

Dragon totem does not give DR.

The other 23 DR/- is legitimate.

Huh, what? Dragon Totem Resilience clearly states it adds DR 2/- per Dragon Totem power chosen.

That's...not quite correct.

"While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one. A barbarian must have the dragon totem rage power and be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power."

Resilience adds Energy Resistance = DR/- from levels x2. Then "this DR increases but 2 for each Dragon Totem Rage Power she possesses".

It seems a bit of a non-sequitur to me that it suddenly increases your DR. In context, it looks more like it increases your DR for the purpose of the energy resistance.

I can see why some would think it increases your DR flat out, but it doesn't seem the intent of the ability from how it's worded.

The telltale sign that this is a typo rather than the deliberate intent of the power is that there actually is no such thing as Damage Resistance. There is Damage Reduction, but the only 'resistance' is Energy Resistance.
Out of curiosity, if you believe that they got one word wrong and made Energy Resistance into Damage Resistance, why couldn't they have gotten a different word wrong and made Damage Reduction into Damage Resistance?

The context of the rest of the language.


Wiggz wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Trekkie90909 wrote:

Dragon totem does not give DR.

The other 23 DR/- is legitimate.

Huh, what? Dragon Totem Resilience clearly states it adds DR 2/- per Dragon Totem power chosen.

That's...not quite correct.

"While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one. A barbarian must have the dragon totem rage power and be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power."

Resilience adds Energy Resistance = DR/- from levels x2. Then "this DR increases but 2 for each Dragon Totem Rage Power she possesses".

It seems a bit of a non-sequitur to me that it suddenly increases your DR. In context, it looks more like it increases your DR for the purpose of the energy resistance.

I can see why some would think it increases your DR flat out, but it doesn't seem the intent of the ability from how it's worded.

The telltale sign that this is a typo rather than the deliberate intent of the power is that there actually is no such thing as Damage Resistance. There is Damage Reduction, but the only 'resistance' is Energy Resistance.

Uhh... Where are you reading this? Dragon Totem Resilience discusses Energy Resistance and Damage Reduction, as it should. There's no typo here.

The rage power indicates that you receive energy resistance equal twice your DR; it then goes on to say that your DR is increased by 2 for each dragon totem power you have, which would in turn increase your energy resistance by 4 each. I really don't see where the confusion is here.

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EvilPaladin wrote:
I would argue that because Rage Powers are specific to the barbarian class[unlike "Spells" or "Feats" which aren't usually class-specific], are defined in the Barbarian Class [unlike Fighter-Specific feats, which are defined in the feat section of the book], and do not suggest that they aren't class features, that they are. Similarly, Revelations I would argue are Oracle class features, Discoveries are Alchemist class features, and Hexes are Witch class features.

Right!

I'd make a similar argument about Rogue tricks too.

Feats are a list anyone can choose from.

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