Best shorty wizard?


Advice


According to Treantmonk's guide, shorty races (dwarves, gnomes, and halflings) make suboptimal wizards, and I think I agree with his arguments, especially the part about how wrong it is that orcs make better wizards than gnomes. What kind of mess up world is this? Don't answer that, that's not the point of this thread.

Regardless of the consequences, I'm going to make a shorty wizard (conjurer/loremaster field controller role) anyway. Damn the consequences. I was dabbling with a gnome for a while, but I'm wondering if it's the best of the suboptimal choices. None of the shorty races really have any significant bonuses to help a wizard, as far as I can tell.

What do you think? Which shorty do you think would make the best wizard and why? I'd like to get advice from someone more reasonable than myself because right now I'm thinking of running with a Strength 5 gnome whose familiar is a (helper) monkey because he's too weak to even lift his own spellbook. That can't end well. :D


Wayang


Dwarf has the best defenses of any of the shirt races really. Saves against also anything? Yes please!


Non-Human (small sized) Peri-Blooded Aasimar.


Gnomes have racial traits to add 1 to the DC of Illusion or Necromancy spells, or add 1 to the caster level of fire spells. That could come in handy in more specialized builds.


Lamontius wrote:
Wayang

Definitley wayang. They have that all-important Intelligence boost in addition to a nice bonus to Shadow-subschool spells. Shadow Evocation & Shadow Conjuration are pretty versatile spells to have in your back pocket.

The Exchange

I'm pretty fond of the gnome, myself. Constitution helps with hp and Fortitude saves. The Charisma bump can be useful if you're going to run an enchanter or necromancer (the two specialties I can think of where you might have to 'contest control' over a target with another caster.) So you could say the race boosts versatility, rather than raw power (as, say, taking Elf would).

The Gnome Magic racial trait is where it gets pretty good. That +1 to the save DCs of your illusions isn't a 'real' +2 Int, but it acts like it for that school (one of the handiest to have high save DCs in, by the way). The handful of SLAs may seem minor, but I've seen them come in handy - in particular, what amounts to Still Silent ghost sound once per day is handy at distraction time. And speak with animals, not ordinarily on the wizard list, has many uses. Especially for somebody with decent Charisma - well, looky there!


Azten wrote:
Dwarf has the best defenses of any of the shirt races really. Saves against also anything? Yes please!

Well, saves against spells and poisons. Their defenses are not as useful against supernatural abilities.


Aasimar's can get a +2 racial bonus to Int in place of their spell-like ability (Variant Aasimar Abilities). Peri-Blooded get +2 to Int and Cha. So you can start with a +4 int for a wizard...

Grand Lodge

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Kneller2 wrote:

According to Treantmonk's guide, shorty races (dwarves, gnomes, and halflings) make suboptimal wizards, and I think I agree with his arguments, especially the part about how wrong it is that orcs make better wizards than gnomes. What kind of mess up world is this? Don't answer that, that's not the point of this thread.

Regardless of the consequences, I'm going to make a shorty wizard (conjurer/loremaster field controller role) anyway. Damn the consequences. I was dabbling with a gnome for a while, but I'm wondering if it's the best of the suboptimal choices. None of the shorty races really have any significant bonuses to help a wizard, as far as I can tell.

What do you think? Which shorty do you think would make the best wizard and why? I'd like to get advice from someone more reasonable than myself because right now I'm thinking of running with a Strength 5 gnome whose familiar is a (helper) monkey because he's too weak to even lift his own spellbook. That can't end well. :D

Hafling Wizard.... because Larry Elmore drew one so well.

This one isn't so bad either.


Tiefling wizard of any small-sized race. You get the tail to draw meta rods and scrolls. You get Int and Dex. You lose cha.

Win status = Maximum.

Goblinworks Game Designer

graystone wrote:
Aasimar's can get a +2 racial bonus to Int in place of their spell-like ability (Variant Aasimar Abilities). Peri-Blooded get +2 to Int and Cha. So you can start with a +4 int for a wizard...

Wait, WHA!? Where is the +2 INT in place of SLA from?


Tork Shaw wrote:
graystone wrote:
Aasimar's can get a +2 racial bonus to Int in place of their spell-like ability (Variant Aasimar Abilities). Peri-Blooded get +2 to Int and Cha. So you can start with a +4 int for a wizard...
Wait, WHA!? Where is the +2 INT in place of SLA from?

Tieflings and aasimar have varient ability tables. Tables for NPC characters of those races. Tables that the GM is perfectly within their right to refuse (as said by the tables themselves), and equally in his right to make you roll a d100 for one of the 100 random abilities if you keep on insisting.

Have fun using CHA instead of CON for determining how long you can hold your breath before you drown, the ability to clean coins and other small objects instantly just by passing them through your hands, or astronomy powers!

Seriously a lot of the options on those lists are fairly unbalanced because they were there to be cool for NPC characters, not to be PC options. Anyway, you can look them over here and here

Scarab Sages

Tork Shaw wrote:
graystone wrote:
Aasimar's can get a +2 racial bonus to Int in place of their spell-like ability (Variant Aasimar Abilities). Peri-Blooded get +2 to Int and Cha. So you can start with a +4 int for a wizard...
Wait, WHA!? Where is the +2 INT in place of SLA from?

If you roll a 40 on the % die for Aasimar variant abilites in Blood of Angels.

In most cases you would never be able to count on it.


I should have mentioned that I don't have access to non-Core races, so it's just either a vanilla Dwarf, Gnome, or Halfling.

I've actually built a human, half-elf, and gnome already, and the human is TONS more powerful than the gnome. With access to 20 vs. 18 int from the start, I get extra spells, an extra language, better language selection, an extra feat, and +1 DC on all saves (not just one school), And the skill differential is huge. Starting at level 3, the human has 24 skill points, while the gnome only has 18.

Upon reflection, I'm starting to get tempted to go with the half-elf as a middle ground.

I do find it absurd that one of the most magical races is such rubbish at it by comparison. I haven't even tried to build an elf, mostly because I don't like elves, and partly because it would be a munchkin move.

Scarab Sages

Gnome is decent at wizard despite not having a bonus to int. They make better sorcerers, but the racial bonus to illusion magic helps illusionists. If you have access to the alternate race traits, they make fantastic blasters with Pyromaniac giving a bonus to CL on all fire spells. Evoker will give a bonus to damage.


lemeres wrote:
Tork Shaw wrote:
graystone wrote:
Aasimar's can get a +2 racial bonus to Int in place of their spell-like ability (Variant Aasimar Abilities). Peri-Blooded get +2 to Int and Cha. So you can start with a +4 int for a wizard...
Wait, WHA!? Where is the +2 INT in place of SLA from?
Tieflings and aasimar have varient ability tables. Tables for NPC characters of those races.

AND PC's. It even says "Players with a particular character concept in mind may consult their GM if they want to select a specific variant ability." So lemeres is correct a GM may not allow it. However, the question was "Which shorty do you think would make the best wizard and why?". What I posted was a RAW legal option [and one that doesn't have to require a random roll].

As to Gnomes: Using the rules from bastards of golarion, you can make a human with Pyromaniac.

Kneller2:Only core? No core shorties are good wizards. Gnomes are only ok IMO. Elves make fine wizards but I prefer humans or 1/2 races because of the human favored class bonus.


Yeah, I'm having a lot of trouble going with the Gnome here. Let's compare (consider that I'm also building this to be a loremaster in a field control role):

The half-elf:
Half-elf Conjurer
Attributes:
7/14/14/20/10/12

Languages
Common, Elven, Draconic, Aquan, Auran, Ignan, Terran

Skills (23):
Diplomacy 3
Knowledge (Arcana, Nature) 3x2
Fly 3
Spellcraft 3
Perception 3
Knowledge (Dungeon 1, Planes 1, Geography 1 , History 1, Religion 1)

Feats:
Scribe Scroll (free from class)
Skill Focus [Knowledge (Arcana)](free from race)
Improved Initiative
Combat Casting

and the gnome:

Gnome Conjurer
Attributes:
5/14/16/18/10/14
Languages: Common, Gnome, Sylvan, Draconic, Elven, Dwarven, Goblin)

Skills (20):
Diplomacy 3
Knowledge (Arcana, Nature) 3x2
Spellcraft 3
Perception 3
Ride 3 (He's going to need a riding dog to get around due to his weakness)
Knowledge (Planes 1, History 1)

Feats:
Scribe Scroll (free)
Improved Initiative
Skill Focus (Arcana)

The thing that draws me to the gnome isn't even that I think he'd be terribly good at anything, but that he's so gimped in comparison that it would be interesting. I might end up tossing a coin on this one.

Quote:
I prefer humans or 1/2 races because of the human favored class bonus.

What do you mean? Based on what I read, everyone gets a favored class, and everyone gets the same bonus.

Scarab Sages

For the gnome, I would lower CHA a few points and raise STR. There is no reason you would need ride or a STR of 5.

For the Favored Class, If you have the advanced race guide, there are alternate favored class bonuses to the core races.

Human favored class bonus for wizard is another spell known.


As Imbicatus said, the Advanced Race Guide gives each race different options in addition to the normal +1 hp or skill point. For wizards humans get a free spell, gnomes get an extra use of 1st level school power, 1/2lings get higher familiar abilities. IMO extra spells is worth much more on average than the other options. (barring some special build)


Kneller wrote:

The half-elf:

Half-elf Conjurer
Attributes:
7/14/14/20/10/12

Gnome Conjurer
Attributes:
5/14/16/18/10/14

Wait, you are using a 25 pt buy for your basis, as well as the ability to get 20 INT? Eh....I don't think you are using the gnome efficiently here, and honestly you can't even do much of a fair comparison because you have no hard choices to make with that point buy. . The advantage of a +2 to CON/CHA is that it can be used to save points on secondary and tertiary scores, leaving more room for your primary. It also softens the blow of dumps (....yeah...CHA).

Here are a set of example scores with a 15 pt buy.This is what AP's tend to use and/or assume you re using. I will aim for your high primary scores at fire

Half-elf: STR: 7 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 20 WIS: 7 CHA: 7
Notice how the other mentals stats are completely dumped. I could salvage one of them to 9 if one of the two undumped physicals go to 12, or both if all the remaining physicals drop to 12.
Here is a slightly less...dumpy version with a goal of 18 INT.
-STR: 7 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 18 WIS: 10 CHA: 9

Gnome- STR: 5 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 18 WIS: 9 CHA: 9
While the strength dump is still there, the dumps to mental stats are less extreme. Turning one of the physical stats into 13 would remove the mental dump entirely.

Just some food for thought. Bonuses outside of your primary are not too much of a problem. It is only when penalties are in primary or secondary stats that there are problems.

EDIT- oh, and the human favored class bonus is just an extra spell to your book, not an extra slot. I just thought I would mention that, since it is a lot less impressive than it might sound. I mean- you are a wizard. Collecting spells from scrolls and captured spell books is one of your THINGS (Although that is a trade for in game time and resources rather than leveling resources)


I've had a lot of fun playing a dwarf wizard in PFS. Lots of hit points from high Con and toughness. I gave her a 14 Str and with her warhammer she can melee support if need be. She actually had to be the frontline a couple games because of the nature of PFS (she was 3rd and the rest of the party was 1st and 2nd with no full BABs.) I took Steel Soul at 5th level and it actually saved her life.


Dwarfs rock as wizards, their favored class bonus is great if you are going to be making stuff for the party. A pickaxe to the face is still a pickaxe to the face when you are in dire trouble. Great saves, and a penalty in your dump stat. Not to mention you don't have to worry about encumbrance issues.


Ratfolk?


Dwarves aren't actually short. They count as medium sized, so you get none of the size bonuses that small races normally give you.


Where are you people getting this favored class stuff? It's not in the core rulebook anywhere I can find.

Quote:
Dwarves aren't actually short. They count as medium sized, so you get none of the size bonuses that small races normally give you.

That's true, though they still count as shorties in a cultural sense. :)

Quote:
Wait, you are using a 25 pt buy for your basis, as well as the ability to get 20 INT? Eh....I don't think you are using the gnome efficiently here, and honestly you can't even do much of a fair comparison because you have no hard choices to make with that point buy.

This is a good point. The game definitely feels a little "soft" from what I observed last week. But, it's my first exposure to PF, so I don't mind easing into it.


Kneller, look at the left side of your screen not far under the search area. Click on the Rules Archive (PRD). Click on Advanced Race Guide. Click on a race. There you'll see the "favored class stuff". For instance, a dwarf wizard can opt for quicker crafting speeds.


Kneller wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Wait, you are using a 25 pt buy for your basis, as well as the ability to get 20 INT? Eh....I don't think you are using the gnome efficiently here, and honestly you can't even do much of a fair comparison because you have no hard choices to make with that point buy.
This is a good point. The game definitely feels a little "soft" from what I observed last week. But, it's my first exposure to PF, so I don't mind easing into it.

Oh, not saying it is a bad thing (I like 25 point buy myself since it lets you be good at several things without needing much sacrifice), I am just saying that Paizo stuff tends to work around the 15 to 20 point buy. So many advantages might only show up when you are under more pressure during character creation.

The Exchange

Kneller2 wrote:
I've actually built a human, half-elf, and gnome already, and the human is TONS more powerful than the gnome. With access to 20 vs. 18 int from the start, I get extra spells, an extra language, better language selection, an extra feat, and +1 DC on all saves (not just one school), And the skill differential is huge. Starting at level 3, the human has 24 skill points, while the gnome only has 18.

I suppose you could run a human midget. Get ready for lots of Willow references, though.

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