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As I continue to develop and refine my homebrew content, I have often returned to this thread for guidance in balancing my skill block, hand size, and proficiency slots. However, while these are very important elements of character design, powers tend to have more impact on relative balance than any other section of the character card. Because of this, I have developed some basic metrics in an attempt to quantify character powers. My hope is that we can develop a strong rating system that will allow players to create homebrew content that is in balance with the game's iconic characters.
Power Metrics - Cost, Utility, Intensity, & Frequency
There are four metrics for rating powers which are weighted equally for now, and each one can score a possible 5(ish) points. They include:
- - - COST - - -
What is given up to use this power?
5: Free
4: Reveal
3: Recharge
2: Discard
1: Bury
0: Banish
- - - UTILITY - - -
What extra abilities are granted by this power, and/or what checks are affected by this power?
5: Healing, universal check for others
4: Extra explorations, evasion, universal check for self, skill-based check for others
3: Location examination, combat check for others, skill-based check for self
2: Movement, extra draw, combat check for self, non-combat check for others
1: Recharge assist, non-combat check for self
0: No additional ability
- - - INTENSITY - - -
What additional dice or bonuses are granted by this power?
5: d12, add 5
4: d10, add 4
3: d8, add 3
2: d6, add 2
1: d4, add 1
0: No intensity measure
- - - FREQUENCY - - -
How often will this power be used?
5: Multiple times per round likely
4: Multiple times per round possibility
3: Multiple times per round unlikely, Once per round likely
2: Once per round possibility
1: Less than once per round
0: Once per scenario, unlikely to see use
- - - - - -
When these metrics are applied to the game's iconic characters, the vast majority of those characters show a total power rating (a combination of all of their starting powers) of about *22*. Spell-casters show the most variance within this system, and Lini completely breaks the metrics with her three abilities, but overall I was surprised at how reliable these scales were for an initial run. Individual powers range from 7 - 14 points in strength, with the majority of those coming in at about 11 points.
Iconic Scores
Each character has a total score and also a breakdown of individual power ratings.
Valeros – 22
First Ability – 13 – 5 Cost, 3 Utility, 1 Intensity, 4 Frequency
Second Ability – 9 – 3 Cost, 2 (3) Utility, 2* Intensity, 2 Frequency
Amiri – 22
First Ability – 12 – 1 Cost, 4 Utility, 4 Intensity, 3 Frequency
Second Ability – 10 – 5 Cost, 2 Utility, 0 Intensity, 3 Frequency
Sajan – 22
First Ability – 11 – 5 Cost, 2 Utility, 2 Intensity, 2 Frequency
Second Ability – 11 – 3 Cost, 2 Utility, 4* Intensity, 2 Frequency
Merisiel – 22
First Ability – 11 – 5 Cost, 4 Utility, 0 Intensity, 2 Frequency
Second Ability – 11 – 2 (3) Cost, 2 Utility, 5 (2) Intensity, 2 Frequency
Harsk – 22
First Ability – 11 – 5 Cost, 3 Utility, 0 Intensity, 3 Frequency
Second Ability – 11 – 3 Cost, 3 Utility, 1 Intensity, 4 Frequency
Seelah – 22
First Ability – 11 – 2 (3) Cost, 4 Utility, 2 Intensity, 3 Frequency
Second Ability – 11 – 5 Cost, 3 Utility, 0 Intensity, 3 Frequency
Kyra – 22
First Ability – 11 – 2 Cost, 5 Utility, 2 Intensity, 2 Frequency
Second Ability – 11 – 5 Cost, 2 Utility, 3 Intensity, 1 Frequency
Lem – 21
First Ability – 14 – 3 Cost, 5 Utility, 1 Intensity, 5 Frequency
Second Ability – 7 – 2 Cost, 3* Utility, 0 Intensity, 2 Frequency
Seoni – 25
First Ability – 13 – 2 Cost, 2 Utility, 7* Intensity, 2 Frequency
Second Ability – 12 – 5 Cost, 1 Utility, 4* Intensity, 2 Frequency
Ezren – 19 (28)
First Ability – 9 – 5 Cost, 2 Utility, 0 Intensity, 2 Frequency
Second Ability – 10 – 5 Cost, 4 Utility, 0 Intensity, 1 Frequency
(Third Ability – 9 – 5 Cost, 1 Utility, 1 Intensity, 2 Frequency)
Lini – 30
First Ability – 8 – 3 Cost, 4* Utility, 0 Intensity, 1 Frequency
Second Ability – 12 – 4 Cost, 4 Utility, 1 Intensity, 3 Frequency
Third Ability – 10 – 2 Cost, 3 Utility, 3 (2) Intensity, 2 Frequency
*Estimated
(Optional Strength)
- - - - - -
This system has issues. For example, it is clear that not all skill-based checks are created equal, and certain powers with low or high scores have drastically different in-game impact. The concepts of opportunity costs and potential after feats are also not explored within this analysis. With that said, I believe that this system is a reliable starting point for a discussion on what elements are important in creating and balancing character powers. What do you think?
I do think you did a fine job of examining these. It is a good first step, though obviously still needing refinement (ie I think the difference between reveal and recharge is much bigger than recharge and discard). Also, 4 for evade seems high, though that is evade everything. What would evade combat be, 1? (below bonus to own combat check presumably).
One possible consideration: You may want to try a multiplicative scale, rather than an additive scale. I say this because the value of a lower cost increases in direct correlation to the strength of the ability. To use a logical extreme: If I had a power that allowed me to reveal a card to do absolutely nothing, it would still be worth 4 points (4,0,0,0), while a power to bury a card would only be worth 1 (1,0,0,0) despite having the same utility.
For the sake of testing, I'll try putting my custom characters through this test. This isn't a make or break for the system, since I know my characters have balance weaknesses, but more just to get a feel for it:
Isaic (Shaman) - 22 (31)
Totem - 10 - 1 Cost, 4 Utility, 1 Intensity, 4 Frequency
Monster Knowledge - 12 - 4* Cost, 3 Utility, 1 Intensity, 4 Frequency
(Recharge - 9 - 5 Cost, 1 Utility, 0 Intensity, 3 Frequency)
The points seem to put Isaic a little more powerful than Ezren, the only character with an inactive starting power. Actually, this introduces another flaw in the system, in that it doesn't really address power feats very well.
Eluril (Priest) - 20
Shield - 6 - 2 Cost, 2* Utility, 1 Intensity, 1 Frequency
Smite Heal - 14 - 5 Cost, 5 Utility, 1 Intensity, 3 Frequency
I can't tell if this feels low or just right. I think it probably is about right.
Bishie Huntress (Mage) - 17
Empowered Cast - 12 - 5 Cost, 2 Utility, 2 Intensity, 3 Frequency
Ice Block - 5 - 1 Cost, 2 Utility, 1 Intensity, 1 Frequency
Huntress has felt a bit off the whole time, and this really showcases that. I may look into trying to buff her base form a bit more, or imporove Ice block (getting a 5 on this really is a kick in the face of that power)
Fennish (Hunter) - 26
Trap - 11 - 3 Cost, 4* Utility, 2 Intensity, 2 Frequency
Pet - 15 - 4 Cost, 5 Utility, 1 Intensity, 5 Frequency
Not surprisingly, Fen comes in over curve, as his power level has certainly been the most discussed. Actually, he was a bit below where I feared, which does make me feel a bit better (the fact that I rated his trap frequency low due to the limited number of items helps, but even bumping it to 3 or 4 is still below Lini)
Snowdragon (Warrior) - 20
Shield Bash - 10 - 2 (3) Cost, 2 Utility, 5 (2) Intensity, 1 Frequency
Shield Other - 10 - 3 Cost, 3* Utility, 1 Intensity, 3 Frequency
I'm not sure about this. The scores came in almost the same, despite the fact that I felt that Shielding allies had been a lot more useful than the shield slam effect. That being said, one of the big reasons we have statistics is to notice things we wouldn't otherwise on our own, so there may be something to consider here.
Serpenttongue (Sorceror) - 37
Mega-Blessing - 11 - 2* Cost, 5 Utility, 2 Intensity, 2 Frequency
Communication - 14 - 5 Cost, 1 Utility, 6* Intensity, 2 Frequency
Recharge - 11 – 5 Cost, 1 Utility, 3* Intensity, 2 Frequency
This came in a lot higher than I expected (Obviously. I was trying to make balanced characters). I think the issue is that I rate her Diplomacy combat as mediocre, while by the point system, it's fantastic. I think the high score is a combination of a slightly over-powered character, and a potential blind spot in the formula.
Well, after having done all that, I think you have a solid formula. While it's obviously not as valuable as good playtesting, it's a solid start to anyone who just wants to consider the power of a new ability.
Well, after having done all that, I think you have a solid formula. While it's obviously not as valuable as good playtesting, it's a solid start to anyone who just wants to consider the power of a new ability.
Thank you once again for your time and input, Isaic! Despite our shared concerns about the flaws in this system, I believe that going through this process has given you (and me) a new perspective on your custom abilities, and so it actually worked quite well. While there is absolutely no substitute for thorough playtesting, my hope for this system is that it gives this community a new way to think about (or at least new terms for talking about) our homebrew powers.
It is a good first step, though obviously still needing refinement
I'm in complete agreement, and I would love it if you and others in this community shared any changes that could possibly help the system to more accurately reflect the impact of certain cost, utility, intensity, or frequency measures. I would also like to know if there is any consensus on whether these should be the only metrics, and/or whether certain metrics should be given more weight within the system. I'm still wrestling with these questions myself.
[...]another flaw in the system, in that it doesn't really address power feats very well.
Along with neglecting power feats and being somewhat broken by more than 2 abilities, this system also ignores hand size and weapon proficiency powers. My gut instinct is that, if we could develop a way to approximate the overall impact of these elements, factoring them into the total scores might have a balancing effect across all of the characters. I initially left these factors out because I felt like they were handled well in Siygess' post, but I have been wondering if the inconsistencies left over after applying his formula to the skill block would be made up for within the power block ratings...
Anyways, thanks again for your help.
I had tried a similar metric on my own but didn't get very far because of the unknowns. You have made it quite a bit farther and I think this is a great foundation to build from.
Obviously hand size is a factor, and the smaller hand size should count for more (in my opinion). With proficiencies you have to account for both having the proficiency and the opportunity to have the proficiency.
With my calculations I had assigned zero points for the first proficiency, then half a point for an opportunity to learn a proficiency and another half point if you actually started with that proficiency. I also assigned half a point for each hand size under 7. I added hand size and proficiency points, then rounded up if it was still a decimal. It probably makes more sense in the long run to make those full points, but I was trying to rate them versus skills, die, and powers so I felt they were not quite worth a full die, for example.
The real tricks come from weighting the skills themselves. If you weigh melee the same as perception, that's (probably) not quite right. But you might weigh melee higher than survival in the early game, and then you start to realize in the later game that they come closer to equal, and melee actually starts to fall behind.
This weight system is also AP specific, as things that are of a higher value in RotR are not quite as high in S&S. I am hoping that an analysis of the changes between the same character in the two APs will shed some light on how the devs value powers and skills.
Anyway, just some random thoughts. I really enjoy the design aspects of the game, so threads like these always catch my eye :)
(Testing out the forum avatar feature. This is Isaic16, just so you know)
Another issue, not with just this process, but just about any measuring process we've used, including the rule of 42 (skill dice), is, simply that all of these parts interact with each other a lot. The best example: Imagine if Lini started with d8 Str and Melee+2 (maybe dropping Con or Dex and Knowledge), and one Weapon. Considering her biggest weakness right now is mediocre combat capability, imagine just how much stronger she would be. Now, not only can she still pick up seemingly almost everything, but she's be, if not a combat powerhouse, a very capable combatant. Arguably, she's already the strongest character in the game, but without changing anything that I feel would raise an alarm for us on the forums, she suddenly became far more powerful.
We have rules of thumb, and they are very useful (rule of 42, Siygess's 24 point system, and your rule of 22). However, until we can put all of this together in a way where we can sum up the total card, we'd still potentially be missing synergies. (Can you imagine how much weaker Ezren would be with only 3 spells instead of 8 e.g.)
Actually, I think that's the next step, and probably goes into my comment about multiplicative values. We need to measure synergies, and make sure that they are being calculated appropriately.
I'm not even sure I'm making sense anymore. This post got kind-of rambling at the end. Anyway, hope my random thoughts made some level of sense!
Maybe I'll try to brainstorm a new formula to test, but I have a ton on my plate as it is. Maybe in a month or two...
How well does this metric handle role cards and character progression? Is Lini still off the scale in the late game?
Yes, Lini is very powerfull later in the game. She gets good role upgrades, while for example Valeros does not... But thi all depends on how big Group you have, what is your playstyle and so on. And ofcourse those power, handsize, skill combinations.
I was skeptical of this intensity meter at first, but i applied it to my own custom characters, which I have spent far longer balancing them than creating them, and your scale holds up. (i used additive btw)
Char 1: 11, 12 = 23
Char 2: 11, 6, 11 = 28 (this char has 40 skill points as opposed to standard 42)
Char 3: 12, 11 = 23
Char 4: 13, 10 = 23
Char 5: 11*, 10 = 21* (*this power scales based on what cards are in hand)
Additionally, most of these characters I designed as more complex to make the game more interactive, so the fact that they are slightly above the magic 22 number is a good thing.
I have no posted them yet, publicly, because I want them to be 100% done first and I have no gotten around to full campaign yet with them, but I'm glad this secondary source confirms my belief that they are pretty balanced.
A thread that partners well with this.
As pointed out at tge beginning, tini has three abilities instead of two, more than others. I think an important consideration is what else is available, if tini is underpowered on those other things then having three abilities can be balanced. To that end I link an old thread that breaks down the entire class. Might spark some thoughts on balancing an ability against the entire class.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o44s?DarkLight-Hitomis-Custom-Class-Rules#1