Can paladins worship an evil deity?


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claudekennilol wrote:
Tell me where it's defined...

Common sense. Reading comprehension. Class description.

Just because you choose to ignore the RP components of the game system does not mean they are not still there and just as binding as crunch rules.


Gilfalas wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Tell me where it's defined...

Common sense. Reading comprehension. Class description.

Just because you choose to ignore the RP components of the game system does not mean they are not still there and just as binding as crunch rules.

They are not as binding as the crunch rules. In fact they're not binding whatsoever. Fluff doesn't affect actual game play.

Heck, I even agree paladins can't do this and I still don't think fluff affects actual game play!


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Tell me where it's defined...

Common sense. Reading comprehension. Class description.

Just because you choose to ignore the RP components of the game system does not mean they are not still there and just as binding as crunch rules.

They are not as binding as the crunch rules. In fact they're not binding whatsoever. Fluff doesn't affect actual game play.

Heck, I even agree paladins can't do this and I still don't think fluff affects actual game play!

Where in the rules does it say there is any distinction between "fluff" and "crunch?" What makes you think that division is even valid at all?


JoeJ wrote:

Where in the rules does it say there is any distinction between "fluff" and "crunch?" What makes you think that division is even valid at all?

Rule 207.2b right here. Those aren't the rules to Pathfinder though. Sometimes people seem to get confused on that point. Or at least that Pathfinder's rules are written in a much less formal style than those, where sometimes you have to read in certain details like how worshipping a god who calls for regular human sacrifice is not something a good character is able to do. Although amusingly enough the rules do talk about good characters "making sacrifices."


JoeJ wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Gilfalas wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
Tell me where it's defined...

Common sense. Reading comprehension. Class description.

Just because you choose to ignore the RP components of the game system does not mean they are not still there and just as binding as crunch rules.

They are not as binding as the crunch rules. In fact they're not binding whatsoever. Fluff doesn't affect actual game play.

Heck, I even agree paladins can't do this and I still don't think fluff affects actual game play!

Where in the rules does it say there is any distinction between "fluff" and "crunch?" What makes you think that division is even valid at all?

Because it doesn't actually state anywhere how fluff interacts with actual game mechanics. It doesn't apply penalties or bonuses, and it certainly doesn't tell you what your character must or must not do. Those are still up to you as a player.

It doesn't limit or affect your character. That is why that division is valid.

I can make a sorcerer for whom magic is not "life itself," to quote the core rulebook. I could make a sorcerer who disdains magic and refuses to use it at all if I wanted to. The "fluff," the descriptors showing how characters should be or basic iconics of each class has no bearing on you or how you play your character.

Shadow Lodge

El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Haladir wrote:
Worshiping an evil god is a voluntary evil act.

Citation, please?

Evil is hurting, oppressing, or killing. Worship is not any of those things.

There's Lawful Neutral Admodeans, Chaotic Neutral Rovagug followers, etc., so worship of evil isn't inheritly evil; just toeing that line.

But that also means it's a nongood act. I mean sure you could worship them but the whole point is that you would not be keeping your G for long. Eventually your paladin beliefs will chafe against the requirements of the faith and one will break. You'll need to beat a slave to hobbling to prove your asmodean might and make sure none of the others try to flee, you'll have to keep the secret cure to that disease to yourself because you follow norgorber, or you'll have to break another paladin because Zon loves to see people fall below them. They're evil, that's the point of their worship is that you will hurt others or yourself, consciously or unconsciously in order to prove your devotion to them and eventually you will fall and if you are a paladin whether that fall is to the bottom of the alignment chart or to the middle you crashed into is irrelevant. You still are now a warrior npc class who knows what it was once like to be something greater.


doc the grey wrote:
El Baron de los Banditos wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Haladir wrote:
Worshiping an evil god is a voluntary evil act.

Citation, please?

Evil is hurting, oppressing, or killing. Worship is not any of those things.

There's Lawful Neutral Admodeans, Chaotic Neutral Rovagug followers, etc., so worship of evil isn't inheritly evil; just toeing that line.
But that also means it's a nongood act. I mean sure you could worship them but the whole point is that you would not be keeping your G for long. Eventually your paladin beliefs will chafe against the requirements of the faith and one will break. You'll need to beat a slave to hobbling to prove your asmodean might and make sure none of the others try to flee, you'll have to keep the secret cure to that disease to yourself because you follow norgorber, or you'll have to break another paladin because Zon loves to see people fall below them. They're evil, that's the point of their worship is that you will hurt others or yourself, consciously or unconsciously in order to prove your devotion to them and eventually you will fall and if you are a paladin whether that fall is to the bottom of the alignment chart or to the middle you crashed into is irrelevant. You still are now a warrior npc class who knows what it was once like to be something greater.

Brushing your teeth is also a non-good act. Does that mean Paladins fall for doing it too?


Did... did you just seriously attempt to equate brushing your teeth with following a being that has human sacrifice or torture as accepted forms of worship?


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Weirdo wrote:
I would argue that discussions of the rules become impossible with a standard setting because the thread was largely derailed by people discussing whether the OP's question was possible in Golarion and whether that bit about Asmodean paladins was canon, while the relevant rules question would be what the meaning of the term “worship” is in terms of the rules (not defined outside PFS as far as I know) and what the intent of the “associations” clause was (which actually was an interesting part of the discussion).

I'd say that's is an interesting question to look at. Especially if you start moving away from the pseudo-monotheistic approach a lot of people bring to the idea of worship and how a character relates to a deity. Most pantheon religions weren't big on only worshipping one deity, and following all of their rules/tenets to the letter.

If you went for a more of a properly polytheistic approach, I could certainly see a paladin offering a bit of veneration to evil deities if the circumstances were appropriate. At the risk of dragging things back to Golarion, I'll mention that the Hellknights seem to take this approach, given that the Paladin members seem to be fine with including Asmodeus as part of the mini-pantheon of order-bringing deities.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
Did... did you just seriously attempt to equate brushing your teeth with following a being that has human sacrifice or torture as accepted forms of worship?

Its a neutral action they're hopefully doing multiple times a day.


I don't really see brushing teeth, or eating a meal as an action that falls within the Alignment spectrum. That is, unless your toothpaste of choice is made with pixies, or requires you to dip your toothbrush into the neck of a unicorn or something.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
I don't really see brushing teeth, or eating a meal as an action that falls within the Alignment spectrum. That is, unless your toothpaste of choice is made with pixies, or requires you to dip your toothbrush into the neck of a unicorn or something.

An action with no alignment implications is assumed to be True Neutral. It's why animals fall under True Neutral alignment: they don't care about law, chaos, good, or evil; just basic survival and family.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
I don't really see brushing teeth, or eating a meal as an action that falls within the Alignment spectrum. That is, unless your toothpaste of choice is made with pixies, or requires you to dip your toothbrush into the neck of a unicorn or something.

All actions fall within the alignment spectrum. Otherwise, how could you distinguish when it becomes an action that falls on the alignment spectrum? Does it have to be one that affects others?


If you were to assume this as the case, then no Monk, Antipaladin, Barbarian, Paladin, or any class that has alignment requirements other than Ranger or Druid can eat, brush their teeth, or walk around without risking becoming True Neutral. Absurdity at its finest.


Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
If you were to assume this as the case, then no Monk, Antipaladin, Barbarian, Paladin, or any class that has alignment requirements other than Ranger or Druid can eat, brush their teeth, or walk around without risking becoming True Neutral. Absurdity at its finest.

Barbarians can be true neutral.

And as asked before, if you state there are non alignment defining acts, where is the line where they diverge? Do only good and evil acts exist? Do they have to affect other people?


Generally when they actually have an effect beyond the ephemeral. I know Barbarians can be True Neutral, but it helps to point out the absurdity of listing things like this.

To put it another way: Your Paladin puts on his clothes in the morning, sits down, eats breakfast, goes for a walk, closes the door when he gets back in, and finds out that he has fallen.

If you follow the idea that Every. Single. Action. is Alignment based, there could never be Monks, Paladin, or Antipaladins, most clerics would be further than one step from their god, as things as simple as breathing (hey, it's an action), would be considered True Neutral.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
I don't really see brushing teeth, or eating a meal as an action that falls within the Alignment spectrum. That is, unless your toothpaste of choice is made with pixies, or requires you to dip your toothbrush into the neck of a unicorn or something.
An action with no alignment implications is assumed to be True Neutral. It's why animals fall under True Neutral alignment: they don't care about law, chaos, good, or evil; just basic survival and family.

I would tend to view it the same way a detect evil spell does. There is a whole continuum of actions that just don't register on the scale. That don't move the needle at all. They are below the level you can detect. It's the bigger things that move the needle. Murder. Oppression. Etcetera. So "being mean to your sister" isn't an evil act. Trying to stab her or selling her off to slavers for drinking money is.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Bottom Line:
1)A paladin does not require a god to gain their powers.
2)A paladin must act in a LG manner and follow a code of conduct, or lose his powers.

Even if an evil deity manages to convince a paladin that he was his patron or whatever, none of those two things above change.
If his "god" tells him to do something evil, he would/should refuse. If he willingly obeys, knowing it's wrong, he may lose his powers. If he does this enough times, he's guaranteed to lose them.

Once he realizes the "god" is really evil, he will cut all willing association with it.


James Jacobs wrote:
But ignoring the evil aspects of his church is not following the teachings of his church, don't you see? Ignoring half of Asmodeus's teachings is a chaotic act. By remaining good aligned and trying to worship Asmodeus, you are behaving chaotically. You might still be able to call yourself a worshiper of Asmodeus in this case (and you would likely be consigning yourself to punishment in the afterlife, but that's a different story)... but you would NOT be acting in a lawful manner by doing so, and thus would drift away from lawful good toward neutral good or neutral. And when you did, you wouldn't be a paladin.

So this leaves the door open for a paladin who worships a chaotic evil deity. By acting in a lawful good manner in open defiance of his god, he is acting very chaotically, which is consistent with the teaching of his god, and therefore a lawful act.


No. Because he would not be acting in an EVIL manner in accordance with his god.

You are also "consistently acting within the boundaries of a personal or outside code."

Which is distinctly undhaotic.


Kryzbyn wrote:

Bottom Line:

1)A paladin does not require a god to gain their powers.

Can you provide a source for that? I have seen that claimed a few times here in this thread but everything I read in the PRD says otherwise. The opening description says the serve virtuous deities. The divine bond says "on reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god.". Holy champion says "Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god.".

I'm not necessarily disputing that paladins don't need a god but I'd like to see the source.

Kryzbyn wrote:


2)A paladin must act in a LG manner and follow a code of conduct, or lose his powers.

Even if an evil deity manages to convince a paladin that he was his patron or whatever, none of those two things above change.
If his "god" tells him to do something evil, he would/should refuse. If he willingly obeys, knowing it's wrong, he may lose his powers. If he does this enough times, he's guaranteed to lose them.

Once he realizes the "god" is really evil, he will cut all willing association with it.

Providing help to someone who uses it for evil ends is a violation of the paladin's code of conduct. What you describe is exactly what the evil deity would do to make the paladin fall.


RDM42 wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Nocte ex Mortis wrote:
I don't really see brushing teeth, or eating a meal as an action that falls within the Alignment spectrum. That is, unless your toothpaste of choice is made with pixies, or requires you to dip your toothbrush into the neck of a unicorn or something.
An action with no alignment implications is assumed to be True Neutral. It's why animals fall under True Neutral alignment: they don't care about law, chaos, good, or evil; just basic survival and family.
I would tend to view it the same way a detect evil spell does. There is a whole continuum of actions that just don't register on the scale. That don't move the needle at all. They are below the level you can detect. It's the bigger things that move the needle. Murder. Oppression. Etcetera. So "being mean to your sister" isn't an evil act. Trying to stab her or selling her off to slavers for drinking money is.

I agree with that, for the most part. Obviously not ever action is going to have the same weight for a character's alignment. My point was that an action being non-good is not, by itself, enough to make it an issue for a Paladin. A Paladin is perfectly free to take as many neutral actions as he wants, so long as they don't reach the point of shifting his alignment.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Bottom Line:

1)A paladin does not require a god to gain their powers.

Can you provide a source for that? I have seen that claimed a few times here in this thread but everything I read in the PRD says otherwise. The opening description says the serve virtuous deities. The divine bond says "on reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god.". Holy champion says "Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god.".

I'm not necessarily disputing that paladins don't need a god but I'd like to see the source.

Kryzbyn wrote:


2)A paladin must act in a LG manner and follow a code of conduct, or lose his powers.

Even if an evil deity manages to convince a paladin that he was his patron or whatever, none of those two things above change.
If his "god" tells him to do something evil, he would/should refuse. If he willingly obeys, knowing it's wrong, he may lose his powers. If he does this enough times, he's guaranteed to lose them.

Once he realizes the "god" is really evil, he will cut all willing association with it.

Providing help to someone who uses it for evil ends is a violation of the paladin's code of conduct. What you describe is exactly what the evil deity would do to make the paladin fall.

1)There is no mechanical language that ties a paladin to a deity. Look at the cleric for refrences of mechanical language that does (although, they also, do not have to pick a deity).

2)Yes. Nothing I said is in conflict with this.

The point of the post is an evil deity can convince a Paladin they are a good god worthy of worship. The Paladin still does not have to do whatever this supposed good god tells them to do, and most likely will not, if asked to do something evil.
If you're usggesting that a paladin removeing a den of slavers causes him to fall, simply because it benefits some big bad's plans, then paladins would fall like rain.

Scarab Sages Contributor

I would say no...but I love toeing lines. a Sacred Servant of Erecura seems like a dewcent place to work from. Planar Ally devils, and try to harness the powers of Hell without succumbing to them...sounds like a neat character.


OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Bottom Line:

1)A paladin does not require a god to gain their powers.
Can you provide a source for that? I have seen that claimed a few times here in this thread but everything I read in the PRD says otherwise. The opening description says the serve virtuous deities. The divine bond says "on reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god.". Holy champion says "Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god.".

Generally because if you look at the srd there is no language anywhere that requires them to worship a deity.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The available material on Cheliax should give you a good idea of how Asmodeus could sponsor paladins. Since he is evil, he cannot do so directly -- but the requirements to join the Hellknights are especially easy for paladins to meet. It is not too difficult for him to recruit paladins of Abadar, Erastil, and Iomedae for his anti-demon crusades.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
David knott 242 wrote:

The available material on Cheliax should give you a good idea of how Asmodeus could sponsor paladins. Since he is evil, he cannot do so directly -- but the requirements to join the Hellknights are especially easy for paladins to meet. It is not too difficult for him to recruit paladins of Abadar, Erastil, and Iomedae for his anti-demon crusades.

The paladins who join the Hellknights aren't becoming Asmodeian worshipers, they still remain worshippers of Iomedae (usually) and perhaps a couple Abadarites as well. Remember that Iomedae has a significant following in Cheliax as well. Not everyone in that country is a devil worshipper.


It could make sense if the paladin was worshiping a pantheon of gods. So, Ares is the bloodthirsty, murderous Greek god of war, who everyone worships collectively as one of the main gods, and who is specifically worshiped with sacrifices and offerings during times of war. The fact that he is an evil, bloodthirsty murderer some of the time, despised by the other gods, doesn't negate his role in the scheme of things, so a paladin following that pantheon would worship him when heading to war. He wouldn't emulate the evil god of war, but would still seek his favor for good fortune in the coming battles.

Worship doesn't always mean emulate. A god can be worshiped for its sphere of control rather than its morality.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

The problem with paladins is that we all have a monotheistic view, based on our own history, of what a paladin is - a good man (or woman, for the politically correct), who worships God, and fights evil. A polytheistic society is different. In Golarion, for example, a paladin is a lawful good champion of a probably good or lawfully aligned god, who has certain powers which are based on the assumption that the paladin is and will remain lawful good. If he does something "evil" he will fall from grace, and lose his paladin status. Okay so far?

There is no reason, other than history (of the game) why other gods, including evil ones, cannot have "champions". Pathfinder is a class based game. If evil gods can have champions (and why shouldn't they?) they wouldn't be paladins, but they would likely have the same kind of connection to their god that a paladin has with his. Different powers, perhaps, but the same game-mechanical principle. Hence the anti-paladin. (I don't really like that term, but I can't really come up with a good one that expresses "like a paladin, only evil".)

So, I would say that any god, whatever his alignment, can have champions of some kind, and the fact that right now we have only paladins and anti-paladins is an artifact of incomplete game design. In fact, if it were me, I would try to design a generic "champion" class (not the current "mythic hero" path) with (probably mutually exclusive) archetypes for each of the alignments. Could actually call them all paladins, since the word (in English) actually means "any of the twelve peers of Charlemagne's Court" and comes from the Latin palatinus, meaning "officer of the palace". But then we'd have to overcome years of "but paladins are lawful good!" bias. :-)

A certain priest of Agrik gave a good exposition of his view of good vs. evil. Who is Agrik, you ask? Agrik is the Immortal Warlord of Balgashang, He Who Knows the Ten Thousand Ways. He is adamantly opposed to Larani, the Lady of Paladins. Peoni, mentioned in the linked article, is The Restorer, The Bringer of Life Renewed, The Lady of Truth. Different world, different gods. :-)


LazarX wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

The available material on Cheliax should give you a good idea of how Asmodeus could sponsor paladins. Since he is evil, he cannot do so directly -- but the requirements to join the Hellknights are especially easy for paladins to meet. It is not too difficult for him to recruit paladins of Abadar, Erastil, and Iomedae for his anti-demon crusades.

The paladins who join the Hellknights aren't becoming Asmodeian worshipers, they still remain worshippers of Iomedae (usually) and perhaps a couple Abadarites as well. Remember that Iomedae has a significant following in Cheliax as well. Not everyone in that country is a devil worshipper.

While no Paladins worship Ascmodeus as their primary god, there are plenty of Hellknight orders whoo venerate Asmodeus as part of their rites (usually as part of a loose pantheon of Hellknight-sponsor deities), without causing any issues for the paladins. Like I said previously, I think Paladins can get away with a more pantheon-like approach.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chengar Qordath wrote:
LazarX wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

The available material on Cheliax should give you a good idea of how Asmodeus could sponsor paladins. Since he is evil, he cannot do so directly -- but the requirements to join the Hellknights are especially easy for paladins to meet. It is not too difficult for him to recruit paladins of Abadar, Erastil, and Iomedae for his anti-demon crusades.

The paladins who join the Hellknights aren't becoming Asmodeian worshipers, they still remain worshippers of Iomedae (usually) and perhaps a couple Abadarites as well. Remember that Iomedae has a significant following in Cheliax as well. Not everyone in that country is a devil worshipper.
While no Paladins worship Ascmodeus as their primary god, there are plenty of Hellknight orders whoo venerate Asmodeus as part of their rites (usually as part of a loose pantheon of Hellknight-sponsor deities), without causing any issues for the paladins. Like I said previously, I think Paladins can get away with a more pantheon-like approach.

I would challenge that. The Hellknight orders that get deep enough into Asmodeus worship aren't going to be the ones that harbor Paladins. Not all orders have Paladins in their ranks. There are Hellknights however that do falsely advertise themselves as Paladins, that doesn't make them the class though.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Bottom Line:

1)A paladin does not require a god to gain their powers.

Can you provide a source for that? I have seen that claimed a few times here in this thread but everything I read in the PRD says otherwise. The opening description says the serve virtuous deities. The divine bond says "on reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god.". Holy champion says "Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god.".

I'm not necessarily disputing that paladins don't need a god but I'd like to see the source.

Paladins draw their power directly from the divine abstracts of law and good, which are distinctly noted as existing separately from deities.

As Asmodeus is certainly one of the deities aligned with the pure principle of law, I could see a Paladin venerating him. In the nation of Cheliax in Golarion, worship of Asmodeus is sold to the common people under his title as the Lord of Law, and I would imagine there are any number of ways an upstanding Lawful Good young man raised in that nation could venerate that aspect of Asmodeus as a bringer of order and justice.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Okay. What is a "divine force"? Why is it an abstract? (at your link, the prd says "divine force" not "divine abstract".)


i honestly expected this thread to be a few posts and that would be that.

Paladins RAW must be lawful good, the RAW of worshipping deities is you must be within one step of your patron deity, Evil is always more then this, so no RAW you cannot under any circumstances worship an evil god as a paladin.

this will also apply to those not worshipping a deity, how is this thread over 300 posts, its literally spelled out in the CRB.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Okay. What is a "divine force"? )

My wife:)

at least thats what she keeps telling me:)


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LazarX wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
LazarX wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

The available material on Cheliax should give you a good idea of how Asmodeus could sponsor paladins. Since he is evil, he cannot do so directly -- but the requirements to join the Hellknights are especially easy for paladins to meet. It is not too difficult for him to recruit paladins of Abadar, Erastil, and Iomedae for his anti-demon crusades.

The paladins who join the Hellknights aren't becoming Asmodeian worshipers, they still remain worshippers of Iomedae (usually) and perhaps a couple Abadarites as well. Remember that Iomedae has a significant following in Cheliax as well. Not everyone in that country is a devil worshipper.
While no Paladins worship Ascmodeus as their primary god, there are plenty of Hellknight orders whoo venerate Asmodeus as part of their rites (usually as part of a loose pantheon of Hellknight-sponsor deities), without causing any issues for the paladins. Like I said previously, I think Paladins can get away with a more pantheon-like approach.
I would challenge that. The Hellknight orders that get deep enough into Asmodeus worship aren't going to be the ones that harbor Paladins. Not all orders have Paladins in their ranks. There are Hellknights however that do falsely advertise themselves as Paladins, that doesn't make them the class though.

This is both true, and completely irrelevant to my argument. I'm not talking about orders that exclusively worship Asmodeus in an effectively monotheistic arrangement. As I've said several times now.

I'm talking about Hellknight Orders like the Order of the God Claw which venerates a pantheon of lawful gods including Asmodeus, and canonically includes paladins among its ranks.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Ed Reppert wrote:
Okay. What is a "divine force"? Why is it an abstract? (at you link, the prd says "divine force" not "divine abstract".)

Pathfinder assumes that "Good", "Evil", "Law", and "Chaos" are quantifiable universal forces, like gravity, or electricity. Paladins are so neatly aligned with these forces that they can utilize them to heal injuries, remove illness, or smack the unholy crap out of evil.

People can worship or venerate all kinds of things without actually following their tenants.

In the real world, you have people who use the name of Jesus, a man whose message was about peace, love, and acceptance, to justify all manner of homophobia and hate crimes.

Islam, a religion founded to create a center of cultural unity amongst Arab tribesman, and whose followers once sheltered members of the Jewish faith fleeing from the Crusades, is now used by extremists to justify all manner of atrocities.

If an evil man can turn misguided belief in a good thing towards evil ends, why is it so hard to picture a reality where a good man's faith in a thing can be used towards good ends, even if the ultimate nature of that thing he believes to be good is actually evil?

For Paladins, it's less important how accurate their beliefs are, as it is how sincerely they believe them. If a Paladin believes that Asmodeus is a bringer of law and justice and venerates him under those ideals, he is still a Paladin. Asmodeus isn't the source of his power anyways.

captain yesterday wrote:

i honestly expected this thread to be a few posts and that would be that.

Paladins RAW must be lawful good, the RAW of worshipping deities is you must be within one step of your patron deity, Evil is always more then this, so no RAW you cannot under any circumstances worship an evil god as a paladin.

this will also apply to those not worshipping a deity, how is this thread over 300 posts, its literally spelled out in the CRB.

Except it's not. Only clerics are required to be within one step of their patron deity, because they are direct conduits for their deity's will. Lay worshippers can worship whomever they will for whatever reason. Paladins do not rely on deities for their power and so, much like any other lay worshipper, their association with a deity is reliant only on their personal understanding of that deity, not on that deity's true nature.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ssalarn wrote:
OldSkoolRPG wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

Bottom Line:

1)A paladin does not require a god to gain their powers.

Can you provide a source for that? I have seen that claimed a few times here in this thread but everything I read in the PRD says otherwise. The opening description says the serve virtuous deities. The divine bond says "on reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god.". Holy champion says "Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god.".

I'm not necessarily disputing that paladins don't need a god but I'd like to see the source.

Paladins draw their power directly from the divine abstracts of law and good, which are distinctly noted as existing separately from deities.

As Asmodeus is certainly one of the deities aligned with the pure principle of law, I could see a Paladin venerating him. In the nation of Cheliax in Golarion, worship of Asmodeus is sold to the common people under his title as the Lord of Law, and I would imagine there are any number of ways an upstanding Lawful Good young man raised in that nation could venerate that aspect of Asmodeus as a bringer of order and justice.

You're acting as if the Evil part of Asmodeus can be separated from his Lawful aspect.... Unfortunately that's wrong. Asmodeus is not a god who's Lawful Neutral on Sundays and Neutral Evil on other days of the week, or vice versa. He's Lawful Evil, which means that the Law and the Evil march side by side. and no one can call themselves Lawful Good by trying to deny that with sophistry.


captain yesterday wrote:

i honestly expected this thread to be a few posts and that would be that.

Paladins RAW must be lawful good, the RAW of worshipping deities is you must be within one step of your patron deity, Evil is always more then this, so no RAW you cannot under any circumstances worship an evil god as a paladin.

this will also apply to those not worshipping a deity, how is this thread over 300 posts, its literally spelled out in the CRB.

That's incorrect as has been pointed out. A few divine classes, such as the inquisitor and cleric, require as such. The rule does not extend beyond their classes.


Sslarn, I wouldn't call someone who is channeling divine powers a layperson. That's, uh, a bit of a problem.

"I'm Steve, and I'm an Inquisitor. I have the ability to cast divine magic given to me by my god, or the forces I worship. However, f&*^ those guys, gimme power."

That doesn't really fly.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

i honestly expected this thread to be a few posts and that would be that.

Paladins RAW must be lawful good, the RAW of worshipping deities is you must be within one step of your patron deity, Evil is always more then this, so no RAW you cannot under any circumstances worship an evil god as a paladin.

this will also apply to those not worshipping a deity, how is this thread over 300 posts, its literally spelled out in the CRB.

That's incorrect as has been pointed out. A few divine classes, such as the inquisitor and cleric, require as such. The rule does not extend beyond their classes.

where does it say that?


captain yesterday wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:

i honestly expected this thread to be a few posts and that would be that.

Paladins RAW must be lawful good, the RAW of worshipping deities is you must be within one step of your patron deity, Evil is always more then this, so no RAW you cannot under any circumstances worship an evil god as a paladin.

this will also apply to those not worshipping a deity, how is this thread over 300 posts, its literally spelled out in the CRB.

That's incorrect as has been pointed out. A few divine classes, such as the inquisitor and cleric, require as such. The rule does not extend beyond their classes.
where does it say that?

Where does it state that you have to be within one step in the first place? Oh wait, only on clerics and inquisitors. It is not in the alignment section, or the section talking about deities.

It is in the class descriptions. And so I quote.

Cleric

Cleric Alignment wrote:
Alignment: A cleric's alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.

Inquisitor

Inquisitor's Alignment wrote:
Alignment: An inquisitor’s alignment must be within one step of her deity’s, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.

You will note, they both specify for their class only. Nowhere in the wording of paladin, or anywhere else for that matter can such a distinction be found. If you can find the rule that it exists outside of those classes, please produce it.

Edit: If you prefer, here is the ruling straight out of alignment steps, in the alignment section.

Alignment Steps

Alignment Steps wrote:
Occasionally the rules refer to “steps” when dealing with alignment. In this case, “steps” refers to the number of alignment shifts between the two alignments, as shown on the following diagram. Note that diagonal “steps” count as two steps. For example, a lawful neutral character is one step away from a lawful good alignment, and three steps away from a chaotic evil alignment. A cleric's alignment must be within one step of the alignment of her deity.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Nocte ex Mortis wrote:

Sslarn, I wouldn't call someone who is channeling divine powers a layperson. That's, uh, a bit of a problem.

"I'm Steve, and I'm an Inquisitor. I have the ability to cast divine magic given to me by my god, or the forces I worship. However, f&*^ those guys, gimme power."

That doesn't really fly.

The point was that for the Paladin, his choice of deity isn't really any different than a layperson's. His powers aren't coming from a deity, they're a direct channel from the universal forces of Law and Good; so if he chooses to venerate Bahamut, Torag, Asmodeus, or Banjo the Handpuppet, it doesn't actually impact his paladinhood. What matters is his character, his vows, and his adherence to his code.


Ssalarn wrote:
Nocte ex Mortis wrote:

Sslarn, I wouldn't call someone who is channeling divine powers a layperson. That's, uh, a bit of a problem.

"I'm Steve, and I'm an Inquisitor. I have the ability to cast divine magic given to me by my god, or the forces I worship. However, f&*^ those guys, gimme power."

That doesn't really fly.

The point was that for the Paladin, his choice of deity isn't really any different than a layperson's. His powers aren't coming from a deity, they're a direct channel from the universal forces of Law and Good; so if he chooses to venerate Bahamut, Torag, Asmodeus, or Banjo the Handpuppet, it doesn't actually impact his paladinhood. What matters is his character, his vows, and his adherence to his code.

I prefer Banjo's nemesis. Just need to find that dang island...

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Sidenote:

For anyone familiar with the Council of Thieves AP, book #5 "Mother of Flies" has a section specifically talking about paladins of Asmodeus. So there's that.

Paladins of Asmodeus:

Asmodeus’s extremely hierarchical priesthood includes clerics,
sorcerers (especially those with the infernal bloodline),
wizards (particularly conjurers), thaumaturges, diabolists
(see Pathfinder Chronicles: Book of the Damned Vol. 1, Princes
of Darkness), and blackguards, with their individual
roles depending on their particular skills and abilities.
A handful of druids worship him as a primordial fire
deity, and an even smaller number of paladins serve him
as paragons of law (see page 65).
***
Military Orders & Paladins
As a whole, Asmodeus’s church has few organized groups
of soldiers, mainly because in most lands their religion
is forbidden and a large, open group attracts too much
attention. Even in many evil countries, where worship
of the Prince of Darkness is openly allowed, tyrannical
militaries and despotic laws reduce the need or impetus
to create special groups in Asmodeus’s name. However,
monastic orders aligned with Hell are not that unusual;
the rigid discipline and isolated community of such an
organization are complementary to the lawful-minded
and often-persecuted Asmodean faith.
Paladins also have a strange relationship with the
Archfiend. Though the idea of a lawful good paladin
serving a lawful evil deity seems ridiculous, it can happen.

Asmodeus is primarily a deity of law, with evil being
incidental to his concept of law. Very rarely, Asmodeus
allows a true paladin to serve him, using him as a tool in
lands where a more traditional priest would be hunted.
The paladin’s duties are always very carefully explained
and restricted to avoid conflicts that result in evil thoughts
or actions; in effect, the paladin is a champion of contracts
and law, who happens to be good. This is possible for three
reasons: One, Asmodeus can have clerics who are lawful
neutral rather than lawful evil; these clerics walk a fine
line that avoids outright evil while still promoting order,
and therefore in theory a paladin can do the same. Two,
the nature of evil does not require one to always be evil;
an evil person who doesn’t rob, murder, or torture at every
opportunity is not at risk of becoming less evil—in fact,
an evil person can perform good acts every day, making
it entirely possible (though exceedingly rare) for a servant
of Asmodeus to be good, having never done an evil act.
Three, the deceptions of Asmodeus are subtle and deft,
and it’s potentially possible for a paladin to believe his
efforts and the orderly god’s will serve a greater good,
though ultimately he serves nothing more than the god of
tyranny’s cruel agendas.
Such paladins sometimes see themselves as reformers
of their church, trying to convince others that it is
possible to serve the ultimate law and still be a good
person. Religious scholars speculate that these paladins
are actually granted powers by another deity (typically
Iomedae or Sarenrae) through some complex arrangement
with the Prince of Darkness. However, it is possible that
having a good paladin in his service benefits his plans in
the long run, and that these enigmatic individuals really
are serving Asmodeus. Their path is much more difficult
than other paladins, and only those lucky enough to
die young avoid falling from grace—though what fate
their souls face in the afterlife remains a matter of great
theological debate.

Liberty's Edge

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Ssalarn wrote:

Sidenote:

For anyone familiar with the Council of Thieves AP, book #5 "Mother of Flies" has a section specifically talking about paladins of Asmodeus. So there's that.

** spoiler omitted **...

This was retconned so hard it killed all the dinosaurs on Earth 65 million years ago ;-)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

The black raven wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

Sidenote:

For anyone familiar with the Council of Thieves AP, book #5 "Mother of Flies" has a section specifically talking about paladins of Asmodeus. So there's that.

** spoiler omitted **...

This was retconned so hard it killed all the dinosaurs on Earth 65 million years ago ;-)

No, they wrote it and JJ slowly grew to despise the idea because of his own personal preferences. As far as I'm aware it hasn't been officially revoked, and JJ even defends it in the product thread, noting that while unusual, there are reasons it would happen.


Nope it was retconned, ask James Jacobs yourself if you must:) there are no paladins of Asmodeus in pathfinder, its a fact

Paizo Employee Design Manager

captain yesterday wrote:
Nope it was retconned, ask James Jacobs yourself if you must:) there are no paladins of Asmodeus in pathfinder, its a fact

No, James Jacobs doesn't like paladins of Asmodeus in Golarion, because they don't jive with his personal aesthetics. The rules that allowed them to exist in the first place have never been changed.

At best, you can say that there are no longer paladins of Asmodeus in Golarion, assuming you can actually show an official retcon. The rules of Pathfinder still very much allow them and there's a fairly comprehensive blurb in Council of Thieves that discusses all the ways that a paladin might serve an Evil deity.


captain yesterday wrote:
Nope it was retconned, ask James Jacobs yourself if you must:) there are no paladins of Asmodeus in pathfinder, its a fact

Not quite. There are no paladins of Asmodeus in the canon version of Golarion. Asmodeus exists in many Pathfinder campaigns that do not take place in the official Golarion setting. It's up the GM whether or not Asmodeus has paladins in those worlds.

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