Why is the druid terrible at everything?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


First post here, so please be patient.
My current party (and first attempt at the druid) is Fighter/Wizard/Druid. We just finished the third scenario of the adventure pack 1 after completing adventure B.

Here's my deck currently: 4x Blessing of the Gods, Dog, Saber-Toothed Tiger, Crow, Detect Magic, Cure (2), Find Traps, Augury, Detect Evil, Token of Remembrance, Holy Candle. I have previously turned down a Toad (which I think was a mistake), and three other excellent allies since I felt I needed to keep animal allies at all cost. I also turned down inflict at one point because it seemed awful (maybe I misread it). I have not had the chance to get Holy Light.

It may be worth noting that I have played in three other parties as a fighter, a cleric (who I think is amazing), and a sorcerer (who I love). My sorcerer is currently on adventure pack 4, so I have some familiarity with the game mechanics coming up for my druid.

Here's her highlights... Obviously my druid is good for wisdom checks, particularly survival checks, which makes her quite good at closing locations, acquiring blessings, avoiding certain combat penalties, and telling stories to scare children into being good. Survival and knowledge seem to be two of the least-used skills, however, so that's one minor problem. d8 Charisma makes her capable at acquiring allies, but neither the wizard nor the fighter are particularly bad at that. Her Cure spells are quite handy, but nothing really special. Her other spells help her stay out of trouble or speed up her explorations, which is okay. Her discarding ability makes her decent at any dexterity or strength check, but not good enough to matter (more on that later), and her reveal ability is clearly her best asset, adding 1d4 to any of her checks, making her mediocre at almost everything.

Here's the big problem - being mediocre at everything means failing at almost every combat and barrier and only picking up things that others could have gotten anyway. Usually, she will have an animal ally in her hand, so I will assume a 1d4 added to everything for this analysis (although in reality, she takes so much damage that she often loses her allies). Her combat is almost always 1d10+1d4 for an average combat roll of 5.5+2.5 or an unimpressive 8. 8 is not enough to kill much of anything, so you will fail at combat, discarding a card in the process, most of the time unless you discard a second card which is a blessing for an average roll of 13.5, which will usually be successful (but most characters are successful when they use a blessing). Dexterity checks for traps and the like give the same result - an average of 8 unless you bless it, which is usually failure. What is really terrible about the druid, however, is that she doesn't get better at combat!!!! While the other characters I have played can add skill points to a primary stat that increases there combat proficiency, the druid cannot improve - she adds skill points to Wisdom which generally means improving her ability to recharge her questionable spells and that is all! If I reach adventure 4 like my sorcerer, I will still have an average unblessed combat roll of 8!!! Sure I will have better spell for some combats, but that just makes my discard ability even less relevant.

For comparison, look at the wizard in my party. Yes, I know he gets no blessings, so rarely gets to explore more than once (I, on the other hand, have to hold my blessings for combat, so I fail to see the advantage here). We have packed him almost full of combat spells, so he almost always attacks for 1d12+2d4+4 (we have had two skill upgrades), for a typical attack valut of 6.5+2.5+4 or 13 - more than 50% higher. Plus, he almost always recharges his spell, sometimes draws a free spell when casting, and sometimes gets free explores - and remember this is without having to discard!

Our fighter, when using a simple longsword without discard gets 1d10+1d8+5 for 5.5+4.5+5 or 15 - almost twice my score, plus his ability gives him an additional 1d6 quite often for the price of recharging his weapon. Yeah, he is slow because of his small hand size, I get that.

So, I am terrible at combat, not good enough at dexterity to matter (average of 8, remember), can cure occasionally (although I often lose cure to damage or fail to recharge since I need a 6 on d10), and am decent at other stuff like getting items or allies. Doesn't the druid seem absurdly under-powered to you since almost all scenarios require some tough combat? I'd really like some analysis or advice to improve here, since I can't find a way out!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think it is a case of not cycling your cards appropriately. If you use your Strength boost, animal boost and a blessing, you should be able to handle most things in the low level game. You should be using the cure spell on your self to get your cards back from the discard pile and you will likely be able to recharge the spell. If you can swing it you should have two cure spells in your deck in case you lose one.

I have personal seen the druid work to good effect. It just requires a different play style. Like most characters in the game, she is most effective once you get to cycling her deck.


I think a lot of people will disagree with you. There are people that say they play Lini solo with 8 locations. I don't personally play as her, but here are some things to keep in mind.

1. She can recharge her allies to explore.

2. You need to decide how she is going to handle combat, spells, weapons or unarmed? If spells, then you should take Inflict and Holy Light when you get the chance (Swipe and other later on too.) If she is going to take a weapon card feat (and later weapon proficiency) then start putting skill feats into Strength or Dexterity. Those skill feats still get added even when she uses her power to roll a d10. If you are going to go unarmed, put the skill feats in Strength.

3. Look at all the power feats you can put into her reveal an animal ally power.

4. Trust me, later you are going to want to make Wisdom/Survival checks.

5. Yeah, she has to discard cards to increase her damage, but stock some cures and that is no problem. In fact, as soon as she has 3 cards in her discard pile, go ahead and play cure. The recharge is Divine 8. With her ally power, she'll be at worst rolling 1d10 + 1d4 + 1. But with some skill feats and power feats, she can get that to nearly automatic in no time.


Lots of Lini advice here, by the way.

Also, Lini is one of characters responsible for the Restoration errata. She can basically get to the point where she can't get less than a 14 on a Divine check. And then can take her whole entire deck into her hand and constantly discard, heal, restore on a single turn (at least with the pre-errata resotration).


In my opinion and from my experience having played Lini - she is borderline broken. As you get later in the game adding d4+4 to all your checks is huge. She does beg for attack spells, keeping inflict early if you are worried about combat checks is important until you can get Holy Light and Swipe and, later, Sign of Wrath.

I personally think its a mistake to not give her a weapon, as there aren't a lot of divine attack spells, but you could focus more on the shapeshifting, I just prefer to have a reusable damage source in a pinch.

She is the ultimate closer in the game given her animal buff and wisdom/survival abilities. Lini laughs at the Death Zone and Mountain Peak.

That being said, it can take a little bit of time to round out her deck to where she is a force to be reckoned with. Sabertooth Tiger, Bear and Velociraptor help with her combat checks without being discarded. Eagle gives her reusable scouting. Cure, Mass Cure, Major Cure, Augury and Scrying give her utility. And with wisdom buffs and attack spells she can become quite formidable in combat.

Lini is the best divine caster in the game when you consider her access to spells and her animal buff. Kyra can not carry as many spells or be as effective with them in comparison.

Give it time... Lini will prove herself worthy as you better her deck.


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I'll also say this, you might just personally not like the druid. (Or at least the RotR Lini version of a druid.) I don't think anyone expects every player to like every character. That is fine. If you don't like Lini, try a different character. Lem would seem a decent fit for you party. Or if you like Valeros, give Amiri a shot.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As you have Valeros in your party, you should also always be exploring alongside him, at least until you get to the point where Lini is always able to make all her rolls by herself. By exploring separately, you're throwing away the value of his +1d4 to an ally for combat - which doesn't require him to spend any cards at all.


I am just about to finish up the entire path in a 5 player game and I am the Druid.

With two scenarios left to play in the game, I get where you are coming from but I think there are some things you might not be appreciating.

*If Lini has an animal ally in her hand she gets an automatic D4 for ANY check, later on as you can boost that power, it can become a D4 + 4. So that's an AUTOMATIC +5 to any check you are rolling on - combat, ally acquisition, closing, recharge whatever. That is a an incredible power, both in flexibility and consistency, that no other character has.

* Knowing that you can then choose to boost her strength or her divine skills so that you have even more bonuses if you are using a weapon or casting a divine spell. Trust me - you should have held on to those inflicts especially early game, they are the best firepower Lini has. Later on certain weapons can be great but in my opinion she can perform best as a divine caster.

*It's true, you are not a power house like the other characters are in terms of pure damage, in my group alone we have Seoni and Amiri, and those two can consistently destroy anything coming their way. But you know what they cant do? Close almost any location they want, pick up almost any boon they could ever want or explore multiple times in a row without any issue. This is a cooperative game and everyone has different roles to play in order to complete scenarios.

* That being said, you will get hurt with Lini in the early game, there is no way to avoid it. But give her a couple of cures and you should be good to go.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I'll also say this, you might just personally not like the druid. (Or at least the RotR Lini version of a druid.) I don't think anyone expects every player to like every character. That is fine. If you don't like Lini, try a different character. Lem would seem a decent fit for you party. Or if you like Valeros, give Amiri a shot.

He makes a good point. I'm not a huge fan of Harsk, but like Lini. It's all about the play style.


As the path goes on, you will have more and more wisdom/survival and constitution checks to make. Valeros is never going to make the wisdom checks, Ezren will struggle. Ezren also doesn't have a hope of making a constitution check.

Once you've put the feats into it, Lini is automatically rolling at least a 5 on ANY check - even for a skill you don't have! (provided you have an animal in hand).

I echo some of the comments above about getting spells. Swipe is probably the best. Sihedron medallions are also good as they can be recharged on a when things go awry (divine 9 gets pretty easy pretty quickly). Ring of Protection is not a bad shout, and this kind of protection from odd points of unavoidable damage becomes more and more crucial as you go on.


Once you get Lini d4 assist to +4, there's practically nothing she can't do. Almost auto succeeding anything she attempts. She may be a little tricky to play right at the beginning, but far from being terrible at anything.


I appreciate all the awesome feedback... can someone verify that if I give Lini a skill feat of +1 strength that it applies to her in her shapeshifted form? The ability reads "You may discard a card to roll d10 instead of your strength or dexterity die for any check." The way I read this it means if I have a +2 in strength, I can roll d4+2 OR d10... if I interpreted it wrongly, however, one of my major assumptions about her weakness was wrong, and she can, in fact keep up (at least a little) in the early game as her average combat roll (without blessings) climbs from 8 to 9 to 10 (and more with power feats, obviously).

Reading the comments carefully, almost everyone commented on her power late in the game, and a few of you verified what I was afraid of - that she is extremely vulnerable to damage in the early game. I wouldn't debate for a minute that d4+4 (or even +5) to every check will make her awesome in the late game, but she can barely even help in the early game. I spent a few hours building a paladin to catch up with the party and have replaced Lini now, because I just wasn't contributing enough.

If I choose to play Lini again, I guess I should assume that combat will usually hurt me unless I save blessings for it or use another party member's help (such as Fighter or Bard in the same location or Ranger in a different location), since without a blessing (but with an animal) she will average an 8, which usually loses. Sound right?

BTW, I apologize for exaggerating in the post's title - as I explained in my initial post, she (so far) seems decent at most things (except combat), but not great at anything (remember, I am in the early game).

Regarding my preferences, I love the game and have thoroughly enjoyed playing the different characters. At the end of the day, though, I am a looking for the best way to contribute to my party and I will play a character class with no flavor if necessary to feel like I am accomplishing as much as possible. This game has much less combat than many games like it, making non-combat characters more powerful than in most games, which I congratulate the designers on, however, with the exception of 'local heroes' every scenario I have played so far depends on a little bit of tough combat.

Thanks again for the feedback.


Her skill feats in strength or dexterity DO still apply even if she shape-shifts to increase the die to a d10. She is still using her strength or dexterity, after all...it's just much improved. :)


I guess in my mind, it read as 'use a d10 INSTEAD of strength or dexterity' instead of use a d10 AS her strength or wisdom'. I have to admit that makes Lini MUCH better than I thought in the early game.

The more I look at the actual text, though, the more I am unconvinced that the text says what the designers meant. Like several cards, I think a rewording is in order. Even after reading the FAQ, my group is not sure how leaving or traveling to the temple works :)


Semi-quick confirmation that Lini's skill feats still apply.

Short explanation of that really long thread about why that is.

You might find this guide helpful.

Temple works like this:

1. If you start the game there, you haven't moved, so nothing happens.
2. If you decide as part of your turn to move to the Temple, you have to discard a card to do so.
3. If you are at any other location and are in an encounter, you can discard 2 cards to evade the encounter and move to the Temple. (In this case, you are discarding 2 cards instead of the 1 that the Temple normally costs you to move there.)


Hate to get into this here, since it has nothing to do with Lini, but the first part of the temple reads:

"When you move or are moved here, discard a card".

Here's my play group's problem. This could easily mean "When you move to this location, are moved to this location, move from this location, or moved from this location, discard a card". This of it as saying "When you move [ie, you are here and decide to move]... or when you are moved here..." A second interpretation is that it could simply mean "When you arrive at this location [for any reason]..." The rest of the text on temple does not contradict the first interpretation since it refers only to a subset of cases (ie, when using the temple to evade). We have chosen to use the second interpretation, so we simply start a character there so we never have to pay the penalty (since evading to the temple seems like a bad idea anyway), but for a long time, some of assumed that we had to discard a card if we chose to leave before it was closed. It would appear that Hawkmoon uses this interpretation as well.

The FAQ refers to similar text on treacherous cave and they fixed it by changing it to "You must succeed at a Constitution or Fortitude 6 check to either move or be moved to another location."


I'm not saying you discard when you leave, just that you discard if you are at another location and move to the Temple.

Normally you can't move during an encounter, but the Temple lets you do that. I costs you two cards to do.

So, if that is what you say I'm saying, then yeah, that is what I'm saying.


LOL, I understood what you are saying - you are very, very clear. I was just saying that the card's wording is ambiguous. It took several rounds of play for it even to occur to us to use the interpretation that says "you can move away from here without discarding", which I now agree is almost certainly correct :) So we are agreeing. I promise :)

Scarab Sages

I am just about finished playing a Druid all the way through the game and I have to say that my wife who is playing the Rogue is really jealous. I took Lini the way of the Shapeshifter and she is a pretty nasty customer in combat. The thing that makes her awesome is she can pass almost any check to acquire anything.

The thing about early combat with Lini is that you want to go grab some weapons and use them in the scenario. Yes, she won't be able to keep them or the armor you acquire either, but you can use all that stuff throughout the scenario and it matters a lot. My nickname for Lini is the Junk Mage. She just accumulates junk and converts it into Str/Dex dice to beat stuff up.

In terms of spell selection, I have had the same spells almost through the entire game, crazy I know - 3 Cures, 2 Inflicts and an Augury. I've had that mix almost the entire game. I only added Summon Monster late.

In terms of power feats you want to get +1 to your ally dice ASAP. They help EVERYTHING. Sometimes if the monster is low, I just do d4 Str and can still beat it up. Skill feats I have at the moments are +2 Str and +3 Wis. Just enough so that I can recharge every spell automatically as long as I have an animal in my hand. That's another thing, I have 5 allies, all animals, and they all do awesome stuff.

The way you want to play is cure yourself constantly as long as you have 3+ cards in your deck and just keep recharging the cures, which will keep your deck churning and you will be able to use your blessings more frequently. If you ever get 2 animals in your deck at one time turn it into an extra explore if you can.

In terms of card feats, I took 1 weapon and got weapon proficiency power feat. That way for the big bad I'll have a weapon if I need it. With all the churn in your deck you'll have no problem getting it by the end of the scenario. Instead of armor, went with a Sihedron Medallion. With 3 cures, I can afford to take some damage sometime. The last game, was really rough, but that third cure, and a toad, were essential to survival and eventual success.

To give you an idea how my combat's go. I start with +2 to my str, discard a card to get a d10 +2 (I took the power feat there too), then show an animal for d4 + 3, then show my club (Mokmurian's club) for another d10 + 2. That gives me a +9, then I also focused on Blessing of Gorum so I can get two addition d10s when I need them. The Club also allows me to discard another card for another d10.....and that is just what I can do personally, before I get any d4s or blessings from my wife.

I have 3 scenarios to go before I beat the game, here are the cards I have at that time:

1 weapon - Mokmurian's Club (weapon and mini-heal)
7 spells - Mass Cure, Cure, Cure, Inflict, Inflict, Augury, Summon Monster
0 armor
3 items - Sihedron Medallion (recharging source of dmg reduction), Emerald Codex (extra cures), Ordikon's Staff (villain nuker)
5 allies - Saber-toothed Tiger (extra combat oomph), Toad (grab cures in my discard pile), Giant Badger (Move instantly), Monkey (acquire things), Cat (recharger) - also every one of them can free explore.
5 blessings - 3 Blessing of Gorum, 2 Blessing of Pharasma

Lini is an extremely versatile character, but takes some finesse to play well. In the first half of the game, I was support, but in some situations I could down the villain. In the second half of the game, I've become a force of nature.

Scarab Sages

To give you a personal anecdote, I was playing Deck 6, Scenario 2 last night with my wife and we were just getting man-handled. I got on the bad end of a bunch of damage I couldn't reduce. I had 2 cure spells (Mass and regular) in my discard pile, along with 2/3rds of my deck. My toad was also in my discard pile. I was racing toward oblivion and I was hoping my last cure spell was not at the bottom of my deck...

Then I drew my Emerald Codex. I played it and got....Scrying, Aid, and Restoration....absolutely no cure spells. I was freaking out, but at the end of my turn with a full hand, I played Restoration and snagged my final cure spell. I played it and got to heal.....2 cards. I shuffled my discard and my wife chose 2 cards. Neither of them was a cure, but one of them was the toad. I shuffled my deck and recharged my cure.

Later I found my toad, buried him to get the second cure spell back from the discard, which allowed me to heal more cards and shuffle the deck and get access to the first cure spell.

By the end of the scenario I had 2 buried cards (Emerald Codex and Toad) and zero, yes, zero cards in my discard pile. This is why I have the toad and 3 cure spells in my deck. The Druid just has so many different options. Every hand I can do something - a str-based combat if I have a weapon or a Blessing of Gorum (or Ordikon's Staff and a spell) or I can do a divine attack with Inflict and a Blessing of Pharasma. In the meantime I am just accumulating almost every boon I come across, healing it into my deck and it just becomes a mountain of options and invincibility.

Any str-based weapons I acquire I can freely nuke (my term of discarding them for full-power) for their full effect, since I will heal it back into the deck easily for future use or discard it for d10 str/dex. Any armors I snag I can freely banish when the big damage comes as I can't keep them in my deck anyway. The class is a license to go all out reckless, sure you will often get your face smashed in, but nothing that cannot be corrected.

Another cool feature of the Druid are those locations where you need to banish a card to close them. Easy enough, just find a boon 9/10 you will acquire it. Keep it around, and when you close, dump it. One of the best classes to do that and the other players will love you for it.


I'm the second person who was reporting on solo plays with Lini at 8 locations. I strongly recommend maxing out Wisdom before Strength/Dexterity and increasing the animal ally bonus until you can get increased hand size.

If you have a +4 animal ally, you can't roll lower than a 6 on a check. Just about any Wisdom/Divine/Survival check will be an automatic success. This means that you can use cards like Augury and Scrying to set up locations.

Double Inflict is good for the starting deck. Until you can pick up a weapon, this is your most convenient attack. Holy Light is a strict improvement, of course.

I recommend against picking up junk cards since they make self-healing less effective.

One Toad is very useful. As soon as you have a different animal in hand, recharge the Toad for an explore. Now it is on the bottom of your deck in case some horrible accident causes you to lose both of your Cures (you want at least two).

It is okay to acquire non-animal allies, you just need to give them to someone else at the end of the session.

You can run Lini as all-support, in which case Aid is a great card. You just won't be doing much fighting on your turns that way. It is probably simpler to be an effective fighter than to help other people.

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