Magic seems expensive


Rules Questions


The money that scribing spells into the spellbook costs, that's payable to whom exactly?

And what for? Is it material costs, like a pen and ink? If so, can they just be stolen?

Does any one actually enforce this rule? If so, what are your thoughts on what it actually adds to gameplay?

Sczarni

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Just as martial characters must purchase weapons and armor, so must spellcasters pay for their spells.

I only do PFS, and scribing costs are enforced. I believe it's [spell level squared] x 10gp for the material costs and +50% if you're paying an NPC for access to their spellbook.

So a 1st level spell, found in a spellbook in a treasure hoard, would cost 10gp to scribe into your book.

If instead you asked the local Wizard to copy it from their spellbook, it would effectively cost 15gp.

No, I don't think that's expensive.

Liberty's Edge

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It is the cost of special inks, probably some of them with with costly colors and metal based.
The fluff I use is that part of the spell you are scribing is a diagram that is used to memorize it and that is needed to prepare the spell, that diagram should be made by special materials, like gold foil and other stuff. A spellbook is a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial]illuminated manuscript

where the images are needed to prepare the spells.

A scroll of a spell has a more advanced version of that diagram, one that contain the energy to activate it.

In the right conditions you can steal the special inks and quills from a shop or another spellcaster. Ask your GM about that.
Another way to get that stuffis capturing enemy spellbooks, but you can't use them until you comprehend and copy the spells.

Yes, I use those rules both as a GM and as a player, they are one of the limiters of a wizard power. I am playing in a fast paced campaign and some my 9th level magus WBL is locked in several captured spellbooks (worth more than 10.000 gp). As we are constantly adventuring I can't spend more than 2 hours/day learning new spells or copying them. I will have to spend more than 20 days to copy the spell I can use from those spellbooks.


Well you can't just copy spells with mundane ink and paper. You need ruby infused ink and paper sprinkled with the fur of a winter hare.

It adds about as much to the game as paying for the scroll that you're going to copy and then gain the ability to memorize it for free every day.

I would rather buy a scroll of meteor swarm, then pay to copy it to my spellbook and memorize it every day for free rather than buy another scroll every day.


barry lyndon wrote:

The money that scribing spells into the spellbook costs, that's payable to whom exactly?

And what for? Is it material costs, like a pen and ink? If so, can they just be stolen?

Does any one actually enforce this rule? If so, what are your thoughts on what it actually adds to gameplay?

I suggest reading the Magic chapter of the core book. Not the spell section, the magic chapter, specifically the part on arcane magical writings. It answers your question.


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Who the money goes to is abstracted. It is paid because the rules say pay it, and I do enforce it. Wizards are strong enough without freebies.


Pupsocket wrote:
barry lyndon wrote:

The money that scribing spells into the spellbook costs, that's payable to whom exactly?

And what for? Is it material costs, like a pen and ink? If so, can they just be stolen?

Does any one actually enforce this rule? If so, what are your thoughts on what it actually adds to gameplay?

I suggest reading the Magic chapter of the core book. Not the spell section, the magic chapter, specifically the part on arcane magical writings. It answers your question.

That was the chapter that prompted the question.

I guess I'm uncomfortable with the unanswerableness as to the identity of the benefactor of the payment if a player asked. I would prefer payments for specific materials from a magic goods vendor or similar, rather than an unconnected and abstract economy. Thanks for your answers guys.


As the GM you can say it requires special ink if you want, but many rules are just for game balance.

Stealing from magic users, even if it can be done is generally a bad idea, so you can have the caster be high enough level, and with enough guards that the players don't try it.


If you think it is expensive in pathfinder then you'd hate the 3.5 version of it. Writing new spells into your spellbook in pathfinder is positively cheap. Just don't write it from scrolls in pathfinder. Find a wizard who is willing to let you copy his spells (for the fee) and/or find spellbooks as part of an adventure.


You probably won't find an exact answer because the book isn't written for a specific town or character in mind. Even written for "Golarion in general", there's a lot of ways the money can spread out when it comes to "inking" your spell book.

You might find an answer (who does the gold go to, can it be stolen) in a Adventure Path or some other specific material that is detailing actual player-world interaction.

Most likely though, it's left to the GM to decide how to roleplay the experience, and what level of interaction you want to go into with it.

The important part (the mechanical limitation) is written for you. You can then use it as a gauge for how it's applied in the game as you want.
Found treasure (scribing materials worth X gold in spells scribed). or amounts stolen (You got your hands on X gold worth of scribing materials, and are being charged with theft in that amount). Etc, etc.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it honestly depends on the character in question, it could be ink, or maybe they like to get expensive magical sigil stamps for the spell to make sure it's all exactly correct.

mechanically you can abstract out the spell book so long as it is a lose-able item.

edit: my favorite is using crystals, which I find slightly humorous.


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The money is for the wine you need during the hours of writing and learning :)


Eridan wrote:
The money is for the wine you need during the hours of writing and learning :)

Imagine the liver of a high level wizard if that was true.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Lifat wrote:
Eridan wrote:
The money is for the wine you need during the hours of writing and learning :)
Imagine the liver of a high level wizard if that was true.

it's just better alcohol.(I refuse to believe every wizard prefers wine)


Bandw2 wrote:
Lifat wrote:
Eridan wrote:
The money is for the wine you need during the hours of writing and learning :)
Imagine the liver of a high level wizard if that was true.
it's just better alcohol.(I refuse to believe every wizard prefers wine)

No matter the kind of alchohol you are drinking it will ruin your liver if you drink enough. Trust me... I've studied a field where I analyzed human livers. Some of them from alchoholics and you wouldn't believe the difference.


Dont buy X bottles of wine for 1gp each. Buy only one bottle of really good wine.
Save a one gp every month and when your liver is old you have enough for a cleric and a heal/regenerate spell.

Sovereign Court

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The cute thing is that a spell costs level^2)*10gp to scribe, and its level in pages.

Meaning that a level 1 spell takes up 10gp per page, while a level 9 spell takes 81gp per page. I imagine at some point it becomes an exercise in just completely coloring in pages in your spell book.

Sczarni

Barry Lyndon wrote:
I'm uncomfortable with the unanswerableness as to the identity of the benefactor of the payment if a player asked. I would prefer payments for specific materials from a magic goods vendor or similar, rather than an unconnected and abstract economy.

I think we answered your question.

2/3 of the cost goes to purchasing magical inks.

1/3 goes to renting a spellbook from someone else.

If you find a spellbook while adventuring, you don't need to pay that 1/3.

Once your players are high enough level they can rent out their spellbooks (though you'd have to come up with your own houserules to cover that).


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It's not just about the money, it's also about the time spent. Scribing a 9th level spell takes longer than one day, and most likely to scribe it you are paying access to some library or other place to gain access to it. That's how I would explain it at least.
Copying a spellbook that already exists only costs half the time and money.

Sczarni

2/3 the money, and the same amount of time.


Ascalaphus wrote:

The cute thing is that a spell costs level^2)*10gp to scribe, and its level in pages.

Meaning that a level 1 spell takes up 10gp per page, while a level 9 spell takes 81gp per page. I imagine at some point it becomes an exercise in just completely coloring in pages in your spell book.

The higher level spells probably require rarer and more expensive inks and other ingredients, not more ink.


CRB wrote:
Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.

Sczarni

Nice try. That's for making a duplicate spellbook, as in if you wanted a second copy for safe keeping.

Link


I think it is a legacy thing from 1e AD&D. The inks required rare magical ingredients.
So when you see a gp number it probably represents things like venom, blood, ichor, dust and other substances from rare monsters like medusae, devils, dragons, pixies, treants, and so on, and crushed gems, rare plants, etc.
Luckily Magic-Mart has them all in stock, so you just go in with your shopping list and toss some gold at the checkout.

Grand Lodge

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There is also a magical spell book that does not require special inks. Somewhere, but I can never remember what book it is in.

(snarky answer: It's royalties, all spells were origionally created by a powerful lich, Yensid, who possesses the rights to them and ruthlessly buys or suppress all new spells that are created. If you do not pay him, your spell books stop working. The magical spell book above has been hacked to be DRM free. Also, in this version of golarion, all familiars are cute, can talk, and get free skill ranks in Perform(sing) and Perform(dance))


FLite wrote:

There is also a magical spell book that does not require special inks. Somewhere, but I can never remember what book it is in.

(snarky answer: It's royalties, all spells were origionally created by a powerful lich, Yensid, who possesses the rights to them and ruthlessly buys or suppress all new spells that are created. If you do not pay him, your spell books stop working. The magical spell book above has been hacked to be DRM free. Also, in this version of golarion, all familiars are cute, can talk, and get free skill ranks in Perform(sing) and Perform(dance))

So in that reality Golarion is one of the Nine Hells? Interesting.

Sczarni

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And two Ratfolk reign supreme.


FLite wrote:

There is also a magical spell book that does not require special inks. Somewhere, but I can never remember what book it is in.

(snarky answer: It's royalties, all spells were origionally created by a powerful lich, Yensid, who possesses the rights to them and ruthlessly buys or suppress all new spells that are created. If you do not pay him, your spell books stop working. The magical spell book above has been hacked to be DRM free. Also, in this version of golarion, all familiars are cute, can talk, and get free skill ranks in Perform(sing) and Perform(dance))

The book you were talking about was called "Boccob's Blessed Book" in 3.5... In pathfinder it is called "Blessed Book".


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, the blessed book, a must have for all wizards at higher levels. You can make two of them for 12,500gp, which is enough to fit all of the Core Rulebook's wizard spells and then some.

Give it to a magus of 7th-level or higher, and he can automatically learn ALL magus spells given enough time.


Here is a shop called Hedge Wizardry in the City of Korvosa--an example of who gets the money for supplying your wizards with magical supplies:

"Hedge Wizardry: After dropping out of Theumanexus College, Phaeton Skoda opened this small shop, which sells an extensive collection of supplies for the crafting of alchemical and magical goods. Some whisper that the shop’s owner took with him more than just a few years’ education: students of the Acadamae and Theumanexus College are strictly forbidden from entering or doing business with this establishment."


Blessed book, also you may want to look into the Cypher Script feat, which hugely reduces the time requirement, and halves page count (rounding up, though). Which lets you get a ton more spells into a blessed book. (Note: You can completely fill a blessed book, even with cypher script, and still have a ton of spells left to get if you have access to the other sourcebooks.)


Remember, the wizard's spells learned through lengthy research and study (gaining levels through experience) are free--only the extra spells cost. It's not as bad as it seems.


It's still a pretty small fraction of WBL.

Maybe you don't actually need every spell in the game.

The Exchange

Why not? Certain posters in every praise-the-Wizard thread I've seen assume you do need 'em all! And have 'em all!


Lincoln Hills wrote:
Why not? Certain posters in every praise-the-Wizard thread I've seen assume you do need 'em all! And have 'em all!

And all of them prepared at once.


If you want to pimp out your spellbook or scrolls, you can check out Spellbooks & Scrolls Variant Rules. There's some cheaper options, but also some options to let everyone see your spellbook swag.

The Exchange

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Meanwhile, the sorcerer is blowing his share of the loot on ale and wenches. That would explain why so many wizards go bad and make with the undead legions and the thirty-level dungeons of doom.


Lincoln Hills wrote:
Meanwhile, the sorcerer is blowing his share of the loot on ale and wenches. That would explain why so many wizards go bad and make with the undead legions and the thirty-level dungeons of doom.

... I note, we actually did a literally 30-level-or-so (I think at least 27) dungeon of doom in a PF game once. Like. We levelled at least twice DURING the dungeon.

I'm playing a wizard/arcane-trickster. And long story short, when we finally met the wizard who had built it, I basically interrupted our Vital Mission To Save The World to explain that I needed to know why the number sequence that was the Clue To Get Through This started with 27. Also I praised the work and said it was absolutely THE. MOST. FUN. EVER.

Then I sold him some cheese.

(Mouse's alignment: "Chaotic GUYS GUYS I CAN DO MAGIC")

It was cool, though, he gave me a bunch of notes which I haven't yet really been able to do much with. Maybe in another 10-20 levels...

I note also that Mouse is now terrified of becoming that guy and is working on building an artifact with a special purpose JUST to avoid becoming like that.

Sovereign Court

Magi with Knowledge pool have an easy time filling their spellbook. Mystic Theurges also have it easy, since they can scribe divine spells onto scrolls, decipher them and record them as arcane spells. Although that's not exactly as useful since you could basically already cast them as clerical spells.

Also, there's the Blood Transcription spell.

Liberty's Edge

Ascalaphus , I had that idea some time ago and did some research.
My results:

Writing a spell into a spellbook require to understand it:

PRD wrote:


Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook

Once a wizard understands a new spell, he can record it into his spellbook.

but understanding a spell require this procedure:

PRD wrote:


Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

Knowledge pool bypass the part where you study the spell and then make the spellcraft check, so you have the spell memorized but you don't understand it.

It work if you are replacing a lost spellbook, as you have understood the spell when you did write ti the first time, not if you are trying to write a spell you don't have studied.

Sovereign Court

Ah, but look a little further:

CRB, magic chapter wrote:

Replacing and Copying Spellbooks

A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.

You can write down the spell because you have it prepared. After you write it down you can then read it an try to understand it so you can prepare it again.

---

Interestingly, you seem to be able to read, understand and copy spells above your level; you just can't prepare them yet.


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barry lyndon wrote:
Pupsocket wrote:
barry lyndon wrote:

The money that scribing spells into the spellbook costs, that's payable to whom exactly?

And what for? Is it material costs, like a pen and ink? If so, can they just be stolen?

Does any one actually enforce this rule? If so, what are your thoughts on what it actually adds to gameplay?

I suggest reading the Magic chapter of the core book. Not the spell section, the magic chapter, specifically the part on arcane magical writings. It answers your question.

That was the chapter that prompted the question.

I guess I'm uncomfortable with the unanswerableness as to the identity of the benefactor of the payment if a player asked. I would prefer payments for specific materials from a magic goods vendor or similar, rather than an unconnected and abstract economy. Thanks for your answers guys.

Pathfinder is primarily a storytelling tool, therefore many details that are not directly key to the storytelling are abstracted away. The economy is one such thing. For starters, it would be impractical to codify rules governing trade and economic trends in an era that was still mostly operating on the barter system. Since all the bartering that would be needed would get in the way of telling/progressing the story, a monetary system is used instead. It is incredibly unrealistic to believe that all transactions are done in gp and sp, but the game simply works better that way. It is equally silly to think there'd be a fixed price for anything in that type of economy, as regional variations, or even variation from one person to another in the same region, would be extreme.


CraziFuzzy wrote:
barry lyndon wrote:
Pupsocket wrote:
barry lyndon wrote:

The money that scribing spells into the spellbook costs, that's payable to whom exactly?

And what for? Is it material costs, like a pen and ink? If so, can they just be stolen?

Does any one actually enforce this rule? If so, what are your thoughts on what it actually adds to gameplay?

I suggest reading the Magic chapter of the core book. Not the spell section, the magic chapter, specifically the part on arcane magical writings. It answers your question.

That was the chapter that prompted the question.

I guess I'm uncomfortable with the unanswerableness as to the identity of the benefactor of the payment if a player asked. I would prefer payments for specific materials from a magic goods vendor or similar, rather than an unconnected and abstract economy. Thanks for your answers guys.

Pathfinder is primarily a storytelling tool, therefore many details that are not directly key to the storytelling are abstracted away. The economy is one such thing. For starters, it would be impractical to codify rules governing trade and economic trends in an era that was still mostly operating on the barter system. Since all the bartering that would be needed would get in the way of telling/progressing the story, a monetary system is used instead. It is incredibly unrealistic to believe that all transactions are done in gp and sp, but the game simply works better that way. It is equally silly to think there'd be a fixed price for anything in that type of economy, as regional variations, or even variation from one person to another in the same region, would be extreme.

I agree with CraziFuzzy that the monetary system is a way to abstract away a lot of time sinks in bartering and stuff like that. But if you think it would be fun to require your wizard run around and finding ingredients for his scribing extra spells into his spellbook and/or for magic items, then go for it... But not all groups (and in particular wizards) will like this.

Scarab Sages

Lifat wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Lifat wrote:
Eridan wrote:
The money is for the wine you need during the hours of writing and learning :)
Imagine the liver of a high level wizard if that was true.
it's just better alcohol.(I refuse to believe every wizard prefers wine)
No matter the kind of alchohol you are drinking it will ruin your liver if you drink enough. Trust me... I've studied a field where I analyzed human livers. Some of them from alchoholics and you wouldn't believe the difference.

How does this translate to dwarven wizards?

Do they have health problems if they stop drinking?


Artanthos wrote:
Lifat wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Lifat wrote:
Eridan wrote:
The money is for the wine you need during the hours of writing and learning :)
Imagine the liver of a high level wizard if that was true.
it's just better alcohol.(I refuse to believe every wizard prefers wine)
No matter the kind of alchohol you are drinking it will ruin your liver if you drink enough. Trust me... I've studied a field where I analyzed human livers. Some of them from alchoholics and you wouldn't believe the difference.

How does this translate to dwarven wizards?

Do they have health problems if they stop drinking?

Real-life dwarves are human, with litterally only height as the only difference... At least that I know of.

Pathfinder dwarves? All bets are off. I could not venture a guess as to how they work, just like I couldn't tell you how dragons or the tarrasgue works.

The Exchange

How does the tarrasque work? Don't tell anyone, but the tarrasque is actually the physical manifestation of Golarion's murderhobo emotions. If Golarion wised up and poisoned all its adventurers as they slept, the tarrasque would shrink down to poodle-size and become an herbivore.

Of course, one "unopposed Adventure Path" later, some villain (probably a demon lord) would conquer/destroy/transform the world, and the downtrodden survivors' zeal to get revenge would simply bring it back to full strength and size.

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