Mystic Theuge Help


Advice


My GM, is not allowing any races beyond the Core rule book. Further to this, limited by a 15 point buy.

There are no divine, or arcane casters in the party, and I am trying to figure out a way to cover off both.

Yes, this is a new character, as the party is starting off at 1st level.


I'll probably be the first among MANY people who suggest you play a witch. A witch can cover most of the bases that a theurge can, but is less multi-ability dependent, and with a 15-point buy, you're gonna need that.


To be brutally honest, playing a mystic theurge with those rules is going to seriously hurt.
Personally, I'd choose one of the two classes to focus on, and use that for your saves and damage, while using the secondary class for utility casting. That said, wizard seems to have better spells for a primary class and the cleric list seems better for utility, so that would be my preference, and I would take the Magical Knack trait to up your caster level for whichever is your primary class. Definitely choose wizard and cleric as your classes, as you need to enter ASAP, and I would take three levels in one and then three levels in the other to get 2nd level spells quickly and at least have those on hand.
With that said, your in-class choices will be fairly different than normal. I'm fully aware that everyone prefers a familiar to the bonded object, but a bonded object scales to your level, while the familiar doesn't, keeping it very fragile. When you choose domains, I'd recommend the separatist archetype for cleric, which lets you cherrypick your favorite domains. This is very important since it provides you with free spells and 1st level powers, but you'll never get 8th level powers, so don't even bother to look at those.

One of your most important choices is race, because with a 15 point buy, racial bonuses are huge. You want a bonus in your primary casting stat, Int or Wis. Elf is your strongest choice, with bonuses in both Int and Dex as well as some cool racial bonuses.

Expect to be fairly gimped from levels 4-6, when a wizard would be getting 3rd level spells and you still only have 2nd level casting, but by higher levels you can still be a viable caster.

I hope this was helpful, enjoy your game!

Liberty's Edge

You don't need a stat above 13 to be a Theurge. You will be 3 levels of Cleric and 3 levels of Wizard before your first MT level, so at 4th level put a point into Wis and at 8 a point into Int. Repeat at 12 and 16 if it goes that high.

To get extra points (and maybe that bonus 2nd level spell earlier), you can buy down your charisma to 7 and take Gnome or Halfling to top it up to a 9. I would probably go with Dwarf and Cha of 11 (burned down to a 9) and buy my Str down since I can still carry a heavy load without being encumbered, though it might be considered Light Load to the Fighter.

Str will never be of use to you after 1st, you will have more spells than you can possibly cast in a day. Cha will be good only for channelling, if you are the only healer, then the others guys should be grateful for whatever they get. The other stats are all equally valuable, for saves if nothing else, Con arguably being the one to favour.

Get stat enhancing magic when you can afford it (circlet, belt and/or ioun stones). Choose spells that buff the other guys or don't allow saving throws, the save DCs will be pitiful given your low stats.

Have fun.

Sovereign Court

Don't forget that the Trickery Domain gives a 2nd level Clerical SLA. You could go Cleric 1 Wizard 3 Mystic Theurge 10.

I would second the recommendation of Magical Knack for the Cleric.

My first-level cleric of Calistria (headed for MT) also took the Luck Domain.


Any suggestions for feats ?

Also would there be any merit, in taking the forgemaster archtype, for the dwarf, as they lose channeling, but gain early access to craft arms and armour.
Also, the forgemaster keys off of int for the runes that they scribe.

Edit for spelling. :)


Another option would be oracle/sorcerer, or cleric/empyreal bloodline sorcerer.

The oracle and sorcerer both cast off of charisma which would help with the 15 point buy. You can also take the wood mystery (bend the grain revelation) to gain a 2nd level divine sla. So you could do oracle 1/ sorcerer 4/ mystic theurge.
Or the cleric/empyreal bloodline sorcerer both cast off of wisdom, giving you a good will save and only one caster stat. And with the trickery domain you could go cleric 1/empyreal bloodline sorcerer 4/mystic theurge.

Make sure to put magical knack on cleric or oracle so you only lose two caster levels


I'll second all the recommendations made- they all look good to me. I would go dwarf cleric with the Trickery domain for the SLA. You could use stats

Str 8
Dex 14
Con 14 (12 +2 racial)
Int 14
Wis 16 (14 +2 racial)
Cha 8

Wizard (conjurer) 3/Cleric 1/ Mystic Theurge 10

Feats
1st combat casting (this will help because you'll have a lower caster level than a single class caster)
3rd spell focus-conjuration
5th augment summoning
7th sacred summons
9th summon good creature (if good) or improved initiative

Traits- Magical Knack (cleric), reactionary

If you go with a familiar, at conjurer 3 you can cast touch spells through your familiar. So you can summon creatures and do battlefield control, healing, buffing, and debuffing. You can memorize cleric spells in a wizard spell slot one level higher (I forget at which level of MT), so you can cast cleric touch spells through your familiar.


half-elf (with the drow magic racial substitution) can gain early-entry via SLA


Kodger wrote:

Don't forget that the Trickery Domain gives a 2nd level Clerical SLA. You could go Cleric 1 Wizard 3 Mystic Theurge 10.

How is Copycat a 2nd level SLA?

It functions in a similar way as Mirror Image but it is by no means Mirror Image, nor is it a Mirror Image SLA.

I don't think this works.

Dark Archive

Diminutive Titan wrote:
Kodger wrote:

Don't forget that the Trickery Domain gives a 2nd level Clerical SLA. You could go Cleric 1 Wizard 3 Mystic Theurge 10.

How is Copycat a 2nd level SLA?

It functions in a similar way as Mirror Image but it is by no means Mirror Image, nor is it a Mirror Image SLA.

I don't think this works.

Neither do I, but SKR disagrees (sort of). See this thread :-

SLA question

I'd suggest checking with your GM first before using it.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Q: What is the spell level of a Spell-Like Ability that acts as an existing spell, but with some changes?

A: If it cites an existing spell, and you know the spell level of that spell, what effective spell level do you think the spell-like ability is? And if it doesn't cite an existing spell, is there a rule or FAQ telling you how to determine its effective spell level?


combining the above stuff in the thread, you can get into MT as early as 4th level (since you can't take a PrC the level you meet it's skill requirements, iirc) via:
half-elf (drow magic) cleric (someone [trickery/???]) 1 / wizard 2 (or wizard 1 / cleric 2 if you wanna focus on divine)

note: you can trade out a domain for the fate inquisition if you dont want to take the trickery domain


I agree whole heartedly, elf Wiz 3/ Cleric 1/ MT 10 with trickery domain is the way to go. Another neat trick is to pick up the strategy subdomain and roll twice for initiative several time a day.

See if your dm will allow you join a spell casters guild ala Inner Sea Magic. That will give you +1 caster level (plus spells per day) to your wizard class and +3 caster level (plus spells per day) to your cleric class. That freakin' rocks! At level 13 you will be slinging level 7 spells from both classes. You can also use your fame points to pick up spells for free from your guild which will help off set the pain of not getting two spells per level automatically like a straight wizard.

You might also start middle age to boost your mental stats by +1 at the cost of your physical stats. It can work in a variety of ways, since the points get more expensive as they go up, you can buy your int and wis up to one point lower than you planned saving more points for your dex and con, or you can use the age modifiers to push your stats higher than what you could normally buy.

I would highly recommend improved familiar and getting something you can communicate with as otherwise your repressed wizard level will keep your little buddy from being very useful. Imp, any of the dragons, and the angel (I think it is Cassian maybe) all can use magical device which can really help you out. Buffing with wands and such can really boost your action economy. Then you may be surprised how much you send your diminutive companion in to deliver cleric buff spells while you stay out of the fray. And for that matter a familiar with invisibility is really helpful.

Opposition schools for your wizard should be areas you think that your cleric spells will cover. I chose to oppose divination and abjuration. My low wisdom made scrying pretty unlikely without taking up two spell slots, but that is the only area I ever felt a problem from my opposition schools.


All advice I will check on. :) Thank you.

BTW, I see no one commented on my thought of the forgemaster ?
Wondering if this might be a viable cleric side.


Mokshai wrote:

All advice I will check on. :) Thank you.

BTW, I see no one commented on my thought of the forgemaster ?
Wondering if this might be a viable cleric side.

Two problems with Forgemaster as MT cleric that I see:

1: You only get the Artifice domain, so you can kiss early entry goodbye, you'll still be casting 2nd level spells at 7th level.
2: Runeforger is based on your Cleric level, which is not increased by levels in Mystic Theurge. At 16th level, you're still Runeforging as a 3rd level Cleric. (You also can't afford to bump your wisdom up too high because you've only got a 15 point buy and need moderately good Int.)

<edit>Forgemaster is a good support character, though. It might be enough support as a straight Cleric to not need the Wizard side of MT.

But I second going Witch instead of MT in your circumstances. And I absolutely love paying MTs.</edit>


For a 15 point game I would recommend AGAINST MT... Witch is a viabel substitute to combien some arcane and divine. With that said if you really want MT this is what I would do.

Peri Blooded (EMberkin) Aasimar.

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 10

Int 18 (16 +2)
wis 14
Cha 12 (10 +2)

If your Gm allows dropping stats consider lowering str and cha to get more dex and con.

Wizard 2/Seperatist Cleric of Nethys 1/MT 10
Emberkin gets a SLA of glitter dust for your level 2 arcane.
Use a domain (or inquisition) that gives you SLA for divine.


Ughbash, my GM is not allowing Aasimar, nor Dampihr, nor Thiefling.
no races beyond the core rules.

I am not comfortable playing a witch/warlock (male witch), so I wouldn't know where to start with one.

The reason that I had thought of the forgemaster, is that their other ability, scales off of Int, and not Cha.

I understand that at 15 points, I am not making a blaster, but I was looking at a general support character.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

i agree with all those who have mentioned the importance of early entry... if your GM will allow alternative racial features from Advanced Race Guide i would definitely suggest something like:

half-elf [drow magic racial alternative]
16+2 Wis (with 5 points left for other stats, probably 12/13 in dex/con)
Wildblooded Sorcerer [empyreal] 2/Divine Strategist Cleric (with Trickery domain) 1 and then into MT

that limits a lot of your option but you end up with only 1 casting stat, a serious will save, and you gain new spell levels in both classes at the same time (2nd @5th, 3rd @7th, etc).

depending on how high a level you think you'll reach, Bard might be a good option too... like a witch they can cover some of the important parts of both arcane and divine casting and at low levels their access to new spells is similar to MT (2nd @4th, 3rd @7th... MT passes them with 4th @9th instead of 10th...). MT will obviously have more spells at their disposal though (sorc known plus cleric list vs. just bard known).


You say want to make MT on 15 point build becasue you want to fill both roles as cleric and wizard... Try this

Elf ancient lorekeeper Oracle of lore with the haunted curse because it add more spell know. Then take eldriech heirage chain of feats for the Arcane bloodline. This gives you full spell casting progression, with 3/4 BaB, 8HD, 4+int Skill points, and casting in armor with no arcane spell failure.

Racial Archetypes
The following racial archetypes are available to elves.

Ancient Lorekeeper (Oracle)
The ancient lorekeeper is a repository for all the beliefs and vast knowledge of an elven people. She shows a strong interest in and understanding of histories and creation legends at a young age, and as she matures her calling to serve as the memory of her long-lived people becomes clear to all who know her. An ancient lorekeeper has the following class features.

Class Skills: An ancient lorekeeper adds Knowledge (arcane) and Knowledge (local) to her list of class skills. Whenever she makes a Knowledge check of any kind about a question regarding elves (creatures of the elf subtype), the ancient lorekeeper adds half her class level on her check. This replaces the bonus skills the ancient lorekeeper gains from her mystery.

Elven Arcana (Ex): At 2nd level, an ancient lorekeeper's mastery of elven legends and philosophy has allowed her to master one spell used by elven wizards. She selects one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list that is at least one level lower than the highest-level oracle spell she can cast. The ancient lorekeeper gains this as a bonus spell known. The spell is treated as one level higher than its true level for all purposes. The ancient lorekeeper may choose an additional spell at 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th levels. This ability replaces the bonus spells she would normally gain at these levels from her chosen mystery.

Mysteries: The following oracle mysteries complement the ancient lorekeeper archetype: Lore, Nature, Waves, Wind ; Ancestor, Time, Wood.

Expanded Arcana feat
Expanded Arcana
Your research has revealed new spells.

Prerequisites: Caster level 1st, see Special.

Benefit: Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.

Special: You can only take this feat if you possess levels in a class whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known, such as the bard, oracle, and sorcerer.

You can gain Expanded Arcana multiple times
Arcane blood power via eldtrich heirage chain of feats

Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item. Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook).

Metamagic Adept (Ex): At 3rd level, you can apply any one metamagic feat you know to a spell you are about to cast without increasing the casting time. You must still expend a higher-level spell slot to cast this spell. You can use this ability once per day at 3rd level and one additional time per day for every four sorcerer levels you possess beyond 3rd, up to five times per day at 19th level. At 20th level, this ability is replaced by arcane apotheosis.

New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.

School Power (Ex): At 15th level, pick one school of magic. The DC for any spells you cast from that school increases by +2. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Spell Focus.

If GM take point of view that 1/2 elf can take anything elf or human take. Then play 1/2 elf get skill focus for free, put the +2 any in to CHA, then when you level take extra spell knowen insteed of skill point or HP for being elf orcle.

Then take Paragon Surge and change the spell know at will by changing
Expanded Arcana feat.

Paragon Surge Spell

School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 3, cleric 3, magus 4, paladin 4, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range personal (half-elf only)

Duration 1 minute/level

You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.

For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.

All this plus good a UMD skill due having high CHA.

Dangerously Curious Trait

You have always been intrigued by magic, possibly because you were the child of a magician or priest. You often snuck into your parent's laboratory or shrine to tinker with spell components and magic devices, and frequently caused quite a bit of damage and headaches for your parent as a result.

Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus on Use Magic Device checks, and Use Magic Device is always a class skill for you.

Two-World Magic

Benefit: Select one 0-level spell from a class spell list other than your own. This spell is a 0-level spell on your class spell list (or a 1st-level spell if your class doesn't have 0-level spells). For example, if you are a druid, you could select mage hand and thereafter prepare it as a 0-level druid spell; if you are a sorcerer, you could select know direction as a 0-level sorcerer spell known.

These two triats will help out this build by give it acid splash and let you use wands or scrolls.


I will have to ask about the viability of early entry, and if he will allow it.

However, I do appreciate the advice. thank you.


How about the Theurge from Kobold Press?

Does anyone play that?


Gnome Fire Oracle with the pyromaniac trait if allowed. Healing, buffs, summoning and fire blasts (cast at +1 level). The only thing you lack is some group utility spells.


My GM doesn't allow 3PP, otherwise I would look at it.

Never thought about oracle, will have to look into that.


Mokshai wrote:

My GM doesn't allow 3PP, otherwise I would look at it.

Never thought about oracle, will have to look into that.

My who post was about that class.


it was the post about the theuge from kobold press.


I see threads asking advice about the mystic theurge at least once a month.

Is there any one place to go with all the best options for this prestige class?


@ Scary Harpy

I believe that there is someone working on a guide, but I don't think it is finished yet.


I'm going to have to say that I agree with GreenTeaGamer on this, you would do better with by simply playing as a witch in this case if your goal is to cover divine and arcane spellcasting. Especially given that you're starting at level one. Attempting to multiclass from level one is hard in Pathfinder, as I've gathered from discussions with various other players and GMs at my group.

A witch's hexes act as great debuffs for setting up the rest of your group for some killing blows, which is primarily what arcane casting deals in, and they also get access to the line of cure spells like clerics.

If you go with a witch "Additional Hex" is a great feat to take again and again. "Improved Familiar" is also something you may want to look into as well.

If you absolutely must go with the Mystic Theurge, then with a 15 point buy you'll want Ability Score Synergy.

The Empyreal Bloodline Wildblooded Sorcerer Archetype. It makes it so your sorcerer bonuses are acquired from a Wisdom score rather than charisma. At that point you can go into cleric and make your way through both spell lines without worrying too much.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---so rcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal

Alternatively you can make an Halfling with the Fleet-Footed Alternate Racial Trait (+10 speed), take up the Oracle class (spontaneous divine caster) and take the lame curse (-10 Speed, plus benefits at higher levels). At this point you can then take pretty much any sorcerer bloodline you want, and boom, you've got a SAD mystic theurge, who will probably be able to function as a party face as well.


Requirement: Skills Knowledge (religion) 3 ranks.

Clarify this for me, please: the soonest one could achieve this is 3rd level, right?


Indeed, but all said, the requirement of being able to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells is what's going to bring up the minimum level for making a mystic theurge. However, if they select a race with a spell like ability of level 2, then they can use that as a prerequisite instead. I've looked into this, and even GMs for Pathfinder Society accept Spell-Like Abilities for prerequisites.

Would a Tiefling's "Darkness" spell be arcane or divine?


@ Westphalian Musketeer. I just don't feel comfortable playing a witch/warlock.

As for the SLA's, a little hard to do with core races.

Will look into the sorcerer/cleric, but doesn't that have a slower spell progression as a theuge ?


You're right, the Sorcerer gets 2nd level spells one level later than the wizard. With that, you have to decide if that one extra level is worth the cost of getting a SAD mystic theurge. I'd be inclined to say it is worth it, but it is a question you have to answer for yourself.

However, the with the spontaneous casting of the sorcerer, you will still be able to learn new spells from leveling up as a mystic theurge.


If the Fate inquisition is allowed, you could get both 2nd level spell requirements using the Trickery domain and Fate inquisition as a cleric.


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i thought soonest was 4th level (as the first level in the class), since you can't take a PrC the level you meet it's skill requirement.


Not exactly

To paraphrase, "A SLA gained from a class feature is arcane or divine based on that class's casting type, if any." So the Trickery Domain and Fate Inquisition abilities both count as divine.

Now, a Half Elf or Tielfing with the Darkness SLA counts as arcane because that did not come from a class ability and Darkness is on the sorcerer/wizard list.


The alternate gnome trait give you Produce Flame, which is a level 1 Druid spell but a level 2 fire domain spell .... If I want to turn my gnome sorcerer into a theurge, can it be used for early entry if I take a cleric level (and no Druid levels)?

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