Blistering Invective Questions


Rules Questions


Blistering Invective wrote:


You unleash an insulting tirade so vicious and spiteful that enemies who hear it are physically scorched by your fury. When you cast this spell, make an Intimidate check to demoralize each enemy within 30 feet of you. Enemies that are demoralized this way take 1d10 points of fire damage and must succeed at a Reflex save or catch fire. Spell resistance can negate the fire damage caused by this spell, but does not protect the creature from the demoralizing effect.

I already have an opinion on these, but wanted to ask the following questions without 'tainting' the discussion with my opinion on it.

1) Targets of the spell fail their saving throw. Do they take 1d10 damage + 1d6 for catching on fire? Or 1d10 only?
2) When do those that caught on fire make a save to put out the fire or take additional damage?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

They take the initial damage (1D10) and then take 1D6 for being on fire at the end of their own turn unless they take a full round action to put themselves out. (This is the same as Alchemist Fire and requires another Reflex to put out the fire)

The question that has cropped up in our circle is how long is one on fire? Our VC says 1 minute when it isn't state how long the target stays on fire, Alchemist fire being the exception as it specifies one (1) round.


For additional reference (which I should have quoted as well).

Catching on Fire wrote:


Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out—that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those whose clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.

Shadow Lodge

thaX is right.
The rules are pretty clear.
EDIT: Hah! ninja'd

1)1d10+1d6 immediately. Then potentially 1d6 again if they fail their save on their turn (repeats).
2) On their turn.

How long they stay on fire isn't specified. 1 minute seems like a good call.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

8 people marked this as a favorite.

You're on fire until you're not on fire. Being not on fire happens when you put yourself out.


1. they would take both since the spell deals damage AND provides a condition. It just so happens that this condition deals additional damage.

2. The reflex save for burning is listed as taken at the time of spell cast finishing. According to the environment rules each subsequent round you can take an additional save so I would imagine on their turn next round they would roll to save again.


I believe targets of the spell that fail their saving throws take 1d10 damage + 1d6 for catching on fire. Then, those that caught on fire can make a save to put out the fire on their turn or take additional damage.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
You're on fire until you're not on fire. Being not on fire happens when you put yourself out.

I agree. I character should not feel like they can ignore the fact that they are on fire. They will burn until they are dead, and maybe even a little longer.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Ah... Learn something new. Both at fail, then 1D6 each turn after.

The full round action to put oneself out was the specifics of the Alchemists Fire, so the enviroment rules was superseded in that case. I shall amend my own way of handling this in the future.

Anyone know if Alchemists treat their bombs the same as Alchemist Fire?


Thanks for the feedback so far.

Asking for clarifications on the following:

thaX wrote:


...at the end of their own turn unless they take a full round action to put themselves out.

1) Catching fire rules don't state when they take the additional damage, except that it happens each round. Why the end of their turn as opposed to the middle or the beginning of their turn?

2) No mention of full round action required to put yourself out, only:

Catching on fire wrote:


A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

e.g. jumping into a lake could be a single move action. Rolling on the ground is unspecified as to what type of action it is.

Note that catching fire rules state rolling on the ground grants an additional save at +4. (bringing us back to point 1, when does the character make their initial save and take damage or not).

Additional note: Alchemist explosive bombs states it is a full round action to extinguish the flames. Is this a specific rule for the explosive bomb, or have general catching fire rules been rewritten (but not officially errata'd yet) to douse the flames?

And for #3)

Tomos wrote:


1)1d10+1d6 immediately. Then potentially 1d6 again if they fail their save on their turn (repeats).
2) On their turn.

So if:

Round 1
Caster casts on init 10, target fails reflex, takes 1d10 + 1d6.
Target at init 9 makes save or takes 1d6.

Round 2
Target at init 9 makes saves or takes 1d6 - repeated to infinity.

OR
Round 1
Caster casts on init 10, target fails reflex, takes 1d10 + 1d6.
Target at init 9 already took 1d6 this round, so does not make a save or take more at this point.

Round 2
Target at init 9 makes saves or takes 1d6 - repeated to infinity.


bbangerter wrote:


So if:
Round 1
Caster casts on init 10, target fails reflex, takes 1d10 + 1d6.
Target at init 9 makes save or takes 1d6.

Round 2
Target at init 9 makes saves or takes 1d6 - repeated to infinity.

OR
Round 1
Caster casts on init 10, target fails reflex, takes 1d10 + 1d6.
Target at init 9 already took 1d6 this round, so does not make a save or take more at this point.

Round 2
Target at init 9 makes saves or takes 1d6 - repeated to infinity.

The rules seem to indicate the second of the two above scenarios.

As for when the damage occurs, the rules seem to indicate that the damage happens after the save. So it can't be at the beginning of their turn.


bbangerter wrote:


Catching on Fire wrote:


A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

I think getting "another" save is probably referring to situations where a companion would try and smother the burning burning character's flames with a cloak on the companions turn. That's how they get another save.

Shadow Lodge

Lakesidefantasy is right. The target that is on fire takes damage each round; the fire damage occurs when cast and on subsequent rounds (not individual initiative counts).

Also right about the "another save" part.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
bbangerter wrote:


Catching on Fire wrote:


A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.
I think getting "another" save is probably referring to situations where a companion would try and smother the burning burning character's flames with a cloak on the companions turn. That's how they get another save.

Well I don't think this part specifically is right. Rolling around on the ground would of necessity involve the character on fire taking part in doing so. Using cloaks/blankets could be an ally doing so, but no mention is made of it requiring an allies help.


If the default assumption is an action requires a standard action to perform, then the point is moot because (barring special/obscure/obscene cases) you cannot take two standard actions on your turn in one round.

I think whoever wrote the line about getting "another" save had standard fire safety methods in mind as they were writing. It would be weird if your companion tried to smother your flames with a blanket and that not being allowed because it's their turn and not yours. But it is certainly open to interpretation.


But the saving throw each round does not say it requires an action to do (except in the case of explosive bombs on the alchemist requiring a full round action). So by my reading you get one saving throw for free. You can gain a second one by rolling around/covering yourself in blankets, etc.

So I'm trying to find some kind of precedent, the strongest one seems to come from the poison rules, in which a character makes a save on their turn (no action required) but can choose to take it at the start, middle, or end of their turn.

Other similar type things:
Hold person specifically calls out a full round action saving throw to break it.

Suffocation spell calls out allowing a save each round, but does not specify any action required or when the save is made.

Stinking cloud calls out those remaining in the cloud must make a new save on the casters turn (specifically called out as the casters turn).

Hideous laughter calls out a full round action on the second turn to end it.

As for when it occurs, bleed damage happens at the beginning of a creatures turn.

Spells with duration end at the beginning of a casters turn x rounds from when the spell was cast.

Lots of class abilities specify they end at the beginning of your next turn.


The way I see it. The initial save called for by blistering invective on the caster's turn is not an action for the target. Subsequent saves on the target's turn are standard actions. Other saves such as being doused with a bucket of water by a companion are standard actions performed by the companion on the companion's turn.

I would consider all of these to be standard actions simply because they are not called out as being another type of action, but I wouldn't argue with a Dungeon Master who decides they are full actions.


Well one more shameless bump to see if anyone else can point to a rule that sets a precedent.

@Lakesidefantasy, the concern I have with making it a standard action is the rules on catching fire don't specify it as an action at all. So IMO it doesn't default to a standard action - it is just something that happens. E.g, standing in a cloud of poison gas wouldn't require an action to make the save, it would just be something that happens every turn automatically. Or standing in the sloped portion of a create pit spell doesn't take an action each round to not slide in, you just roll and slide in or not but still have your full turn to act.

It is also clear from the examples of things you can do to get a +4 as an additional save that an ally is not required to do any of those things, but any of those would require some kind of action by the burning individual.


I don't have anything that sets a precedent, but I do have a question now that I've seen the catching fire text from the environment section.

What DC is the reflex save for the spell? Is it a flat 15 (as listed in the catching fire environment text) or is it caster-based (as per pretty much every other spell-based DC)?

I thought it was caster-based, but I'm no longer sure. My planned pyromaniac gnomish bard may need a rethink, depending on the answer.


Caster based when the spell is first cast.

DC 15 per round after that, probably, but not entirely clear.

Shadow Lodge

I'll throw another snag into it. If you've got the target Frightened, can they still take the action to put themselves out while they're running?


You take the one 1d10 and the 1d6 for being on fire if you fail the save upon the initial casting of the spell.

You do not get another save nor take fire damage again until the initiative count of whoever cast the spell comes up again. The exception to when you can get another save, apart from the init count of the caster is in the following sentence.

"...rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus."

Basically the free save happens on the same init the spell was cast. Any bonus saves will have to initiated by actions committed by yourself such as rolling on the ground. It also seems that if another character uses their turn you would get a reflex save. That seems fair because they could be doing something more effective during combat.

Not a rule--->The book does not list which action it takes on your turn to attempt a reflex save, but I would use the alchemist fire rules of a full round action. At the very least I would say a standard action. Just to be clear I am not saying this is a rule to use a standard or full round action. I am just saying that is what I would do so someone does not effectively get 2 free saves.


thistledown wrote:
I'll throw another snag into it. If you've got the target Frightened, can they still take the action to put themselves out while they're running?

I think they would have to leave the source of the fear first.

Quote:
Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the paths of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. If the duration of their fear continues, however, characters can be forced to flee if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken).

I have always read this as fear takes over your mind. All you are concerned with is getting away from whatever you are afraid of. Once you are in a safe area you may act normally.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

7 people marked this as a favorite.
wraithstrike wrote:

You take the one 1d10 and the 1d6 for being on fire if you fail the save upon the initial casting of the spell.

You do not get another save nor take fire damage again until the initiative count of whoever cast the spell comes up again. The exception to when you can get another save, apart from the init count of the caster is in the following sentence.

"...rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus."

Basically the free save happens on the same init the spell was cast. Any bonus saves will have to initiated by actions committed by yourself such as rolling on the ground. It also seems that if another character use their turn you would get a reflex save. That seems fair because they could be doing something more effective during combat.

Not a rule--->The book does not list which action it takes on your turn to attempt a reflex save, but I would use the alchemist fire rules of a full round action. At the very least I would say a standard action. Just to be clear I am not saying this is a rule to use a standard of full round action. I am just saying that is what I would do so someone does not effectively get 2 free saves.

As the guy who wrote blistering invective, I thought I'd chime in and mention that this is how I run it as well.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As the above enviromental rules, unless the source that initiated the target catching on fire says otherwise (such as Alchemists Fire), the target gets a save every turn.

They also burn on their turn, just as Bleed and Poison effects, as opposed to the caster's turn. (Yeah, lower init means getting burned in the same turn as the higher init caster that caused the target to catch fire)

That is how I see it, from what is quoted and discussed.


thaX wrote:

As the above enviromental rules, unless the source that initiated the target catching on fire says otherwise (such as Alchemists Fire), the target gets a save every turn.

They also burn on their turn, just as Bleed and Poison effects, as opposed to the caster's turn. (Yeah, lower init means getting burned in the same turn as the higher init caster that caused the target to catch fire)

That is how I see it, from what is quoted and discussed.

Quote where it says they also burn on their own turn? Even poison affects don't affect you twice during the same round except for the first round it is applied.

Catching on fire does not say you get a save on your turn from what I can see. I do know that if something happens on init __, that is when it happens again unless otherwise stated like poison does.


Apologies for resurrecting the thread, but especially since the author chimed in I'm hoping to get an answer....

Does the spell (a standard action) perfectly mimic something like Dazzling Display (a full-round action) in that it allows you to make one Intimidate check to demoralize every person within 30'? Or, does it allow you to make one Intimidate check per person for every person within 30'? It can make a big difference, especially if you roll very high/low.

The wording I have is "...make an Intimidate check to demoralize each enemy within 30' of you" (emphasis mine), which seems to suggest individual checks. As opposed to, say Dazzling Display, which says "Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes..."

A subtle difference, but wondering if there's official word.

Thanks!


The Norv wrote:
Apologies for resurrecting the thread...

You are not excused, shame on you!

I kid, questions are welcome :P

The Norv wrote:

Does the spell (a standard action) perfectly mimic something like Dazzling Display (a full-round action) in that it allows you to make one Intimidate check to demoralize every person within 30'? Or, does it allow you to make one Intimidate check per person for every person within 30'? It can make a big difference, especially if you roll very high/low.

The wording I have is "...make an Intimidate check to demoralize each enemy within 30' of you" (emphasis mine), which seems to suggest individual checks. As opposed to, say Dazzling Display, which says "Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes..."

A subtle difference, but wondering if there's official word.

Thanks!

Blistering Invective

Blistering Invective wrote:
When you cast this spell, make an Intimidate check to demoralize each enemy within 30 feet of you.

Each, all. Potato, potato. No real difference.

It seems that it's a single check that is applied to everybody.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

I'm with CampinCarl on this one, I had one check in mind.


Micro Necro!

I have a half orc inquisitor who just made level 4, so obviously this spell just became very important to me. Do i have the below points correct?

1) When cast there is a single roll made and the result is compared against all enemies within 30' of the caster who can understand the language you choose when casting the spell.

1a) Or can it be any language the caster knows, as they switch through all known languages in the manner of an irate Sailor?

2) The caster does not need to be aware of the enemy for them to be affected, either entity considered by caster or entity with hostile intent to the caster would be affected. ie. stealth or invisibility would offer no protection?

3) Everyone and anyone demoralized by the intimidate check takes 1D10 fire damage and has to make a Save set by the caster with the -2 penalty from being shaken.

4) Those on fire MAY use their actions to douse themselves, roll on the ground or otherwise attempt to extinguish the flames. this provides a range of bonuses towards a new save attempt against a DC of 15 or an automatic success depending on GM ruling.

4a) Other creatures MAY use their actions to likewise attempt to douse a creature on fire or otherwise assist resulting in a new save for the burning creature to remove the on fire condition.

4b)Failing to extinguish the flames by either above set of actions does not result in additional damage.

5)Each subsequent round on the caster's initiative all burning creatures MUST make a new free save against a DC of 15 or take an additional 1D6 fire damage.

I feel confident on everything from 2-5 but the language dependency part i am a little shaky on. Thoughts?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Right, the spell is Language Dependant, so whatever language you use for your tirade, is the one creatures need to know to be intimidated. It must be a language you speak.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I would think it would be 1d10 on the caster's turn, then 1d6 on the target's turn(s), but that might just be me. I thought being on fire worked like bleed.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan, I get that language dependent means you need a language in common, the part i am unsure of is if you can run through all your known languages or if you have to guess one ahead of time. For most language dependent spells it seems to thematically make sense that you use one single langauge for the entirity but for this example it would be just as thematic to run through many different ones.

SlimGauge, the only general rules for catching on fire that i know of state that once you catch fire you immediately take the first 1D6. although some effects that cause fire seem to work differently... its not the clearest aspect of the game. Cant blame the PDT though, its not that common that PCs can set people on fire. usually.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

No, you're going to need to pick a language. Might I advise getting your monster IDing knowledge skills up, so you can pick the right language to use?


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
As the guy who wrote blistering invective, I thought I'd chime in and mention that this is how I run it as well.

I'm glad you did, as I find this spell utterly hilarious.


So is the ref save at your own spell save DC or at DC 15?
Or does it become DC 15 in the subsequent turns?


Sjurlog Ohms wrote:

So is the ref save at your own spell save DC or at DC 15?

Or does it become DC 15 in the subsequent turns?

At our table we use spell DC for the initial save and then DC 15 (because the fire isn't magic, it's the same as describe in the environment rules)

Grand Lodge

thaX wrote:

They take the initial damage (1D10) and then take 1D6 for being on fire at the end of their own turn unless they take a full round action to put themselves out. (This is the same as Alchemist Fire and requires another Reflex to put out the fire)

The question that has cropped up in our circle is how long is one on fire? Our VC says 1 minute when it isn't state how long the target stays on fire, Alchemist fire being the exception as it specifies one (1) round.

However, if they are still intimidated they do not get to save. They continue to be on fire per spell.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Cinderfoot Bristlebeard wrote:
thaX wrote:

They take the initial damage (1D10) and then take 1D6 for being on fire at the end of their own turn unless they take a full round action to put themselves out. (This is the same as Alchemist Fire and requires another Reflex to put out the fire)

The question that has cropped up in our circle is how long is one on fire? Our VC says 1 minute when it isn't state how long the target stays on fire, Alchemist fire being the exception as it specifies one (1) round.

However, if they are still intimidated they do not get to save. They continue to be on fire per spell.

I believe that's only true of the mythic version.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Blistering Invective Questions All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.