Using True Strike the round you cast it - without Quicken


Advice

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Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I've been trying to figure out a way to use True Strike the same round I cast it. Specifically this is for a Qinggong Monk, so no quickening it to use it as a swift.

So far, the best I've come up with is to activate it while grappling, and then use the move-action grapple maintain from Greater Grapple to almost guarantee they won't escape.

I suppose it'd also be usable on an Attack of Opportunity too, so you activate it and then hope they provoke (or make them provoke somehow).

Any other ways to get a use out of True Strike without wasting a turn entirely on the casting?


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Few levels of Magus!


True strike boosts your next attack, will it work to prevent an escape attempt!


Well, there's the Monster Feat, Quicken Spell-Like Ability. You must have a SLA with caster level 10 and Qinggong powers take Monk level as CL so a Monk 10 could take it if you have an odd number of levels of other classes, or at lvl 11 as a single-class Monk.


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Magus Spell Combat, or setting the target up for an Attack of Opportunity.

Scarab Sages

Unfortunately, monster feats are usually not legal for PCs unless you have a very permissive GM in a home game.

Personally. I like Magus 3 with the wand wielder arcana to spell combat with a wand of true strike.


The Morphling wrote:
So far, the best I've come up with is to activate it while grappling, and then use the move-action grapple maintain from Greater Grapple to almost guarantee they won't escape.

I'm not sure how this would work. At the least, you'd have to make a concentration check to use the SLA since you'd have the grappled condition (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB [the defender's CMB?] + the level of the spell you're casting).


Imbicatus wrote:

Unfortunately, monster feats are usually not legal for PCs unless you have a very permissive GM in a home game.

Personally. I like Magus 3 with the wand wielder arcana to spell combat with a wand of true strike.

My personal experience is about 50:50. Usually it's a gut reaction to say NO! because a new or casual DM thinks that "Bestiary feat request auto = POWERGAMEMINMAXCHEESERTRYINGTOBREAKMYGAMEOHNOES!"

Of the several DM's I have played with that had that reaction I am usually able to talk it out with them and let them see that those feats are pretty well balanced. Then again, I think 70% of those instances were with ability focus which is a pretty weak feat. So ymmv.

In my games bestiary feats are allowed without even asking, but then so are 3.5 feats and several 3rd party company feats.


Imbicatus wrote:

Unfortunately, monster feats are usually not legal for PCs unless you have a very permissive GM in a home game.

Personally. I like Magus 3 with the wand wielder arcana to spell combat with a wand of true strike.

I like that one, too.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

>_> I already know how to use spells on a Magus, the ask was for a Qinggong monk. Oh well...

As for the grapple idea, yeah, it's not a perfect tactic, given concentration difficulty. Which is why I brought up the question and wanted to get advice on how better to use it.

And no Monster feats, as it's for PFS.


The Morphling wrote:
And no Monster feats, as it's for PFS.

I'm not familiar with that being a restriction in PFS. Could someone give the source?


The Morphling wrote:

>_> I already know how to use spells on a Magus, the ask was for a Qinggong monk. Oh well...

And yeah, it's not a perfect tactic, given concentration difficulty. Which is why I brought up the question and wanted to get advice on how better to use it.

You can do that with Quinggong Monk Ki Powers, but remember only certain Ki Powers are activated as a Swift Action. I'm pretty sure that True Strike is activated as a Standard Action like other Spell-like abilities.

The method I have found that works the best is to get True Strike as an Alchemist. And Alchemist can make an Extract of True Strike that functions like a Potion.

Then get the Feat Potion Glutton. Potion Glutton lets you drink any potable item as a Swift Action. In this way you can cast True Strike on yourself with a wand at some distance and pop your Strength Mutagen. Maybe other people can can put other buffs on you, too like Bull Strength, Enlarge Person, or Burning Blood. Then the next round, the Wizard can DimDor you right on top of the Ancient Black Dragon, and you make your Grapple Check with your extra +20+other buffs+whatever your bonus was in the first place. Then use Potion Glutton to True Strike again, and Grapple again as a Move Action to Tie him Up, assuming you have the Expert Captor Class ability, that is.

Anyway, that's the best method I've worked out.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Melkiador wrote:
The Morphling wrote:
And no Monster feats, as it's for PFS.
I'm not familiar with that being a restriction in PFS. Could someone give the source?

The Bestiary isn't a valid source for feats unless you gain access to them through some other source (like the Natural Weapon Combat Style in the APG). It's not that monster feats in general aren't legal, it's just that the one specifically in question is not from a legal source (unless he can find an ability elsewhere that is legal which allows him to choose it).


Ssalarn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
The Morphling wrote:
And no Monster feats, as it's for PFS.
I'm not familiar with that being a restriction in PFS. Could someone give the source?
The Bestiary isn't a valid source for feats unless you gain access to them through some other source (like the Natural Weapon Combat Style in the APG). It's not that monster feats in general aren't legal, it's just that the one specifically in question is not from a legal source (unless he can find an ability elsewhere that is legal which allows him to choose it).

Exactly the most common use of monster feats i see are the allowed animal companion feats. Otherwise you rarely see them.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
You can do that with Quinggong Monk Ki Powers, but remember only certain Ki Powers are activated as a Swift Action. I'm pretty sure that True Strike is activated as a Standard Action like other Spell-like abilities.

Uh, yeah. If it were a Swift I wouldn't even need to ask advice, I'd just... Swift True Strike and auto-grapple everything.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Then get the Feat Potion Glutton. Potion Glutton lets you drink any potable item as a Swift Action.

Source? Never heard of this feat and couldn't find it on a search. Nevermind, found it. Still, I'm a Monk, not an Alchemist.


Ok, I always figured classes like the Dragon Disciple could take at least some of those natural attack/armor feats.

Although, now that I think about it, DD may not qualify for the natural attacks feat as their claws are not permanent.

Scarab Sages

The Morphling wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
You can do that with Quinggong Monk Ki Powers, but remember only certain Ki Powers are activated as a Swift Action. I'm pretty sure that True Strike is activated as a Standard Action like other Spell-like abilities.

Uh, yeah. If it were a Swift I wouldn't even need to ask advice, I'd just... Swift True Strike and auto-grapple everything.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Then get the Feat Potion Glutton. Potion Glutton lets you drink any potable item as a Swift Action.
Source? Never heard of this feat and couldn't find it on a search.

Inner Sea Gods. You need to worship Urgathoa though.


Imbicatus wrote:
The Morphling wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
You can do that with Quinggong Monk Ki Powers, but remember only certain Ki Powers are activated as a Swift Action. I'm pretty sure that True Strike is activated as a Standard Action like other Spell-like abilities.

Uh, yeah. If it were a Swift I wouldn't even need to ask advice, I'd just... Swift True Strike and auto-grapple everything.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Then get the Feat Potion Glutton. Potion Glutton lets you drink any potable item as a Swift Action.
Source? Never heard of this feat and couldn't find it on a search.
Inner Sea Gods. You need to worship Urgathoa though.

Yeah, unfortunate catch there. One would think you could at least have the option of worshipping Cayden as well. ;)

Scarab Sages

Backlash3906 wrote:


Yeah, unfortunate catch there. One would think you could at least have the option of worshipping Cayden as well. ;)

Nah, Cayden wants you to savor the drink to appreciate it's flavor, not chug it like swill.


Quote:
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

So, no such thing as a Potion of True Strike anyway.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Zalman wrote:
Quote:
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
So, no such thing as a Potion of True Strike anyway.

Which is why he specified extracts. Still wouldn't work, since extracts use their own rules, and even if they fell under "other potables" the standard action to use them involves actually mixing them, not just drinking them.

Or would they? I'm not an Alchemist expert, never having played one. I can't seem to find any mention of "mixing" in the "cast" of an Extract.


The Morphling wrote:
Zalman wrote:
Quote:
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
So, no such thing as a Potion of True Strike anyway.

Which is why he specified extracts. Still wouldn't work, since extracts use their own rules, and even if they fell under "other potables" the standard action to use them involves actually mixing them, not just drinking them.

Or would they? I'm not an Alchemist expert, never having played one. I can't seem to find any mention of "mixing" in the "cast" of an Extract.

Yep, I think you're right about extracts working here -- the mixing has to be done daily, and takes one minute, so presumably not during combat. Cool idea.


It's a rule that always annoyed me. Their is a rule that says you can't make a Potion of True Strike, but there is no rule that says you can't make an Elixir of True Strike. In game terms, from the user's perspective, there is no difference between an Elixir and a Potion. The only difference is in which feats are required to make it.

Meanwhile, magic item creation rules do not apply in PFS, and it is not against the rules to FIND a potion of True Strike, only to MAKE them.

There is no reason why NPC brewers couldn't be using Craft Wondrous Item to make Elixers of True Strike, call them potions, because what's the difference, and for PFS characters to find and buy them.

But they made their rules, and we follow them.


Of course, OP--poor OP--Mark Seifter just changed the rules of the game so that you can not initiate and maintain a grapple in the same round. In fact, grappling rules no longer make sense as written any more, and I advise all players against iterative grappling character builds and I advise all PFS GMs to remove the Grappling features from the monster encounters until the Development Team can sort out the mess that was just made.

Scarab Sages

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Of course, OP--poor OP--Mark Seifter just changed the rules of the game so that you can not initiate and maintain a grapple in the same round. In fact, grappling rules no longer make sense as written any more, and I advise all players against iterative grappling character builds and I advise all PFS GMs to remove the Grappling features from the monster encounters until the Development Team can sort out the mess that was just made.

Link please?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Of course, OP--poor OP--Mark Seifter just changed the rules of the game so that you can not initiate and maintain a grapple in the same round. In fact, grappling rules no longer make sense as written any more, and I advise all players against iterative grappling character builds and I advise all PFS GMs to remove the Grappling features from the monster encounters until the Development Team can sort out the mess that was just made.
Link please?

Yeah, what? The Greater Grapple feat explicitly contradicts that. I need a source for this claim.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Probably this post: Link

Note that its not an official errata, nor a FAQ answer, its just Mark talking about his interpretation of the rules. Therefore hysterics and/or hyperbole are not yet warranted.

As for the actual rules interpretation at hand, I believe the argument is that Greater Grapple allows you to maintain a grapple as a move action, but you don't maintain a grapple in the round you initiate it. You only maintain on subsequent rounds.

So round one, you establish grapple as a Standard. You must wait for round two to maintain the grapple as a move action, and which point you can spend a standard to make a second grapple check that round.

I don't know if this interpretation is correct, but I don't see how it breaks the grapple rules in any way.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Oh. Mark was just wrong then. Carry on. Is he an official rules source? I'm pretty sure he isn't.

Upon examining the rules, it never indicates that you cannot maintain the grapple in the same round, simply stating that you must maintain it in future rounds if you do not wish for them to be freed.

Quote:
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Emphasis mine. It never says "subsequent rounds" except for when it's referring to the +5 bonus you'd receive.

Pretty clear-cut.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Probably this post: Link

Note that its not an official errata, nor a FAQ answer, its just Mark talking about his interpretation of the rules. Therefore hysterics and/or hyperbole are not yet warranted.

As for the actual rules interpretation at hand, I believe the argument is that Greater Grapple allows you to maintain a grapple as a move action, but you don't maintain a grapple in the round you initiate it. You only maintain on subsequent rounds.

So round one, you establish grapple as a Standard. You must wait for round two to maintain the grapple as a move action, and which point you can spend a standard to make a second grapple check that round.

I don't know if this interpretation is correct, but I don't see how it breaks the grapple rules in any way.

That's the link I was talking about.

Are you sure that his post does not now constitute a binding rules change? That is a great comfort. With your reassurance, I apologize for the hysterics and hyperbolics.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Yeah, Mark is part of the design team now, but that doesn't mean everything he says on the boards is him acting in his official capacity. Sometimes he's just giving his personal read on the rules.

You'll note that, a little farther into the thread, when someone questions him on it, he says we'll probably see a blog post on grappling at some point in the future. If that blog post addresses this issue, then you can consider it a binding rules change/clarification.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
In game terms, from the user's perspective, there is no difference between an Elixir and a Potion. The only difference is in which feats are required to make it.

Um, no.

You may want to go back and reread Elixirs.
Unlike potions, most Elixirs can ONLY be used by the Alchemist, unless they are made into Infusions.
Both standard Elixirs & Infusions take up the Alchemists' slots until activated. That is a huge difference between a potion and an Elixir: a potion-guy can make any # of potions and won't care when they are used, an alchemist doesn't get his slots back until they are used, so if you find one as "treasure" that's an alchemist that has been permanently missing a slot.

-TimD

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

TimD wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
In game terms, from the user's perspective, there is no difference between an Elixir and a Potion. The only difference is in which feats are required to make it.

Um, no.

You may want to go back and reread Elixirs.
Unlike potions, most Elixirs can ONLY be used by the Alchemist, unless they are made into Infusions.
Both standard Elixirs & Infusions take up the Alchemists' slots until activated. That is a huge difference between a potion and an Elixir: a potion-guy can make any # of potions and won't care when they are used, an alchemist doesn't get his slots back until they are used, so if you find one as "treasure" that's an alchemist that has been permanently missing a slot.

-TimD

I think you're thinking of extracts. Those are the alchemist's spells.

He's talking about elixirs, which is a catch-all term for the various drinkable wondrous items in the game (see elixir of vision).

Of course, an elixir of true strike would be a custom magic item, and though it's something you can make with the magic item creation guidelines, you'd still need your GM's permission to make it.

Most GMs I've played with (including myself when I run games) generally veto attempts to bypass the limits of Brew Potion using Elixirs.


An elixir is a wonderous item.


There are certain style feats that let you generate counterattacks. Snapping Turtle Clutch would let you grapple anyone who tried to make an attack on you for any reason and I think panther lets you make counter AoOs on anyone who makes an AoO against your movement. You have a move action to use to give people AoOs for you to counterattack against.


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D'oh, you're right, I thought he was talking about Extracts.
Sorry, Scott!

-TimD

Grand Lodge

There's no way to do what you want without a pet or familiar.

XigXag frequently uses TrueStrike the same round he casts it. He's a Sylvan Sorcerer with an Axe Beak animal companion.

He waits until there's an open charge lane. He casts TrueStrike on the Animal Companion (using the Share Spells ability). The Axe Beak then charges at +20 to hit, hits, then gets an automatic trip attempt, also at +20. Works great.

'Fraid there's usually no way to pull this off except in a few weird cases, mostly involving a familiar or an Animal Companion.


@XigXag, that doesn't work.

True Strike is +20 on the next single attack roll before the end of your next turn.

Sudden Charge gives you a free trip after hitting with a bite. The Bite is the first attack roll, the trip which is a separate attack roll (Maneuvers are attack rolls, and it lacks the caveat that Shield slam has to make it use the same bonuses as the original attack) would not get the +20.

Grand Lodge

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

@XigXag, that doesn't work.

True Strike is +20 on the next single attack roll before the end of your next turn.

Sudden Charge gives you a free trip after hitting with a bite. The Bite is the first attack roll, the trip which is a separate attack roll (Maneuvers are attack rolls, and it lacks the caveat that Shield slam has to make it use the same bonuses as the original attack) would not get the +20.

This has been debated at some length in the rules forums. XigXag never expected that trick to work. His player was surprised to discover that the consensus seems to be that it does work that way. The RAW is pretty clear, the RAI less clearly so. Some links to old Rules Forum posts are clearly called for, should anyone wish to pursue the matter.


Oh.. yakno i think you can pay extra and have a wand of Quickened True Strike. I guess yopu'll have to drop it or put it on a weapon cord though.
or just not use that hand when you grapple/unarmed attack. (neither of those require you to use your hands only. I suppose you can use your legs and one arm just fine to grapple I suppose)

Edit: wait, quick is +4 not +3right? wands are restricted to spell lv 4 at max? I guess you coudln't make a wand of it. In theory you can make a custom magic item of it for X times per day costs. Otherwise maybe a wizard or sorc friend, or magus friend with traits to lower the cost of metamagic to make the wand at spell lv 4 not 5... Takes a lot of requirements.

Silver Crusade

Er, can't make a wand of Quickened True Strike, wands only go up to 4th level spell slots. Oh wait, you already caught that..eh.

Unless you had a generous GM who allowed someone with a a trait or two invested (Magical Lineage, Wayang Spell Hunter? I believe -I don't particularly recall well the names, my table doesn't play with traits normally) into True Strike to make the wand, not going to happen within the normal rules.

Although I have debated making a character based on investing multiple traits into True Strike for long-term planning, Quickened TS on a 3rd level slot could be...intriguing...


Yeah.
I know you can metamagic wands but I don't know if Magical Lineage or Wayang works when ti comes to crafted items. Pretty sure nope..

So sadly it doesn't help this character. Its too bad really since Wands say they can be used in a grapple and all.

Outside of this, or quicken SLA feat, or custom magic item. I can't really see any pathway for this

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
XigXag wrote:

There's no way to do what you want without a pet or familiar.

XigXag frequently uses TrueStrike the same round he casts it. He's a Sylvan Sorcerer with an Axe Beak animal companion.

He waits until there's an open charge lane. He casts TrueStrike on the Animal Companion (using the Share Spells ability). The Axe Beak then charges at +20 to hit, hits, then gets an automatic trip attempt, also at +20. Works great.

'Fraid there's usually no way to pull this off except in a few weird cases, mostly involving a familiar or an Animal Companion.

I'm afraid that doesn't work, consensus or no consensus. True Strike gives the bonus on one attack roll. It doesn't matter if the trip gets the +2 from the charge too, it absolutely and positively does not get the +20 "double dip" from true strike. At least the charge is definitely gonna hit.


XigXag wrote:

There's no way to do what you want without a pet or familiar.

XigXag frequently uses TrueStrike the same round he casts it. He's a Sylvan Sorcerer with an Axe Beak animal companion.

He waits until there's an open charge lane. He casts TrueStrike on the Animal Companion (using the Share Spells ability). The Axe Beak then charges at +20 to hit, hits, then gets an automatic trip attempt, also at +20. Works great.

'Fraid there's usually no way to pull this off except in a few weird cases, mostly involving a familiar or an Animal Companion.

I'd been toying with the idea of having my Alchemist Grappler use his King Crab Tumor Familiar break open an Infusion of True Strike via a Volatatile Vaporizor. Being not just a Familiar, but a Tumor, it should be able to open up the 'Vaporizer right in her lungs.


The Morphling wrote:
XigXag wrote:

There's no way to do what you want without a pet or familiar.

XigXag frequently uses TrueStrike the same round he casts it. He's a Sylvan Sorcerer with an Axe Beak animal companion.

He waits until there's an open charge lane. He casts TrueStrike on the Animal Companion (using the Share Spells ability). The Axe Beak then charges at +20 to hit, hits, then gets an automatic trip attempt, also at +20. Works great.

'Fraid there's usually no way to pull this off except in a few weird cases, mostly involving a familiar or an Animal Companion.

I'm afraid that doesn't work, consensus or no consensus. True Strike gives the bonus on one attack roll. It doesn't matter if the trip gets the +2 from the charge too, it absolutely and positively does not get the +20 "double dip" from true strike. At least the charge is definitely gonna hit.

I think I found a way, sort of. Shield Slam. When you have the Shield Slam feat, each Shield Bash is also a Bull Rush, and you use the same attack roll for the melee attack as you use for the Bull Rush.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I think I found a way, sort of. Shield Slam. When you have the Shield Slam feat, each Shield Bash is also a Bull Rush, and you use the same attack roll for the melee attack as you use for the Bull Rush.

Indeed, Shield Slam works. But the example given was for a charging Axe Beak, which does not have the awesome "gets all of the same bonuses as the original attack" power that Shield Slam does.


Imbicatus wrote:
Inner Sea Gods. You need to worship Urgathoa though.

Wait, you can drink potions as a move action normally? I always thought drinking a potion was a standard action.


Hum. if Sipping Jacket allows infusioins that is a choice.
since true strike potions aren't valid


The Morphling wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I think I found a way, sort of. Shield Slam. When you have the Shield Slam feat, each Shield Bash is also a Bull Rush, and you use the same attack roll for the melee attack as you use for the Bull Rush.
Indeed, Shield Slam works. But the example given was for a charging Axe Beak, which does not have the awesome "gets all of the same bonuses as the original attack" power that Shield Slam does.

Though I can certainly see justification for ruling that the same reason the shield slams attack and bull rush use the same roll, that the Axe Beak's Sudden Charge attack and trip attempt use the same roll. It is not written as so, but I don't think I'd be angry to see it done that way.


Zwordsman wrote:

Hum. if Sipping Jacket allows infusioins that is a choice.

since true strike potions aren't valid

Oh, I wish!

There are some PFS DMs that have allowed that, but you can't count on it. If it's a homespun DM, ask him.


Hobbun wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Inner Sea Gods. You need to worship Urgathoa though.
Wait, you can drink potions as a move action normally? I always thought drinking a potion was a standard action.

Sir, you are right: Here you'll find the trait that changes the action needed to drink a potion (from standard, which is the default, to move, which is the benefit of the trait).

Looks like we found a contradiction... or an pointless trait.

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