Does the reduced size category from the young template reduce movement?


Rules Questions


Does the reduced size category from the young template reduce movement? I don't believe changing size category changes movement unless there is a specific mention of size and movement (like dragons).


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it doesn't. the template provides enough penalties to anything based on using its physical stats, however, i wouldn't use it on an incorporeal caster and wouldn't use it on something else that doesn't use physical stats as it's primary damage form, such as most undead, fey, and other monsters primarily focused on supernatural powers.


I was thinking of making an NPC young gnome cavalier riding a small-size flying mount. Thanks!

Grand Lodge

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Note: Be very, very careful with the Young template.

There are some creatures for whom the template is a boost, overall, rather than a reduction, in abilities.

As an example, anything with Weapon Finesse improves its ability to hit with this template, and its AC will also, usually, go UP.

Edit: Fixed some typos.


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Had a goblin-young-fey creature with 29 base dex who used agile whips. Wild stuff


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kinevon wrote:

Note: Be very, very careful witht he Young template.

There are some creatures for whom the template is a boost, overall, rather than a reductio, in abilities.

As an example, anything with Weapon Finesse improves its ability to hit with this template, and its AC will also, usually, go UP.

the Weapon finesse builds get like 3 Extra points of accuracy, 2 points of reflex and 3 points of Touch AC, but they lose 2-3 points of damage per swing, lose 2 hit points per level and eat a -2 to fortitude saves

this is really only a boost for incorporeal foes who care more about non-strength based forms of combat such as level drain, spells or ability damage, and for weapon finesse builds built for undead, constructs and other creatures whose hit points and fortitude saves are not dependant on a constitution score


The young gnome cavalier with a small size flying mount is more for comedic effect. I toyed around with the idea of letting a player play a young drow noble, but that would be difficult to balance at level 8 when the one-level adjustment for drow noble went away.


ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:
The young gnome cavalier with a small size flying mount is more for comedic effect. I toyed around with the idea of letting a player play a young drow noble, but that would be difficult to balance at level 8 when the one-level adjustment for drow noble went away.

the +8 to dexterity is balanced out by the -6 to constitution in the case of a young drow noble, hell, it would be balanced by a -4 to constitution, and that would be without requiring a level adjustment.

drow nobles have lots of SLAs,but are highly fragile, and well, they can't use their SLAs when dead. a normal drow noble might need it, but a young one sure doesn't.


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I think the best bonus is the -1 CR. It allows the application of a +1 CR template without a level adjustment

Grand Lodge

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Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
kinevon wrote:

Note: Be very, very careful witht he Young template.

There are some creatures for whom the template is a boost, overall, rather than a reductio, in abilities.

As an example, anything with Weapon Finesse improves its ability to hit with this template, and its AC will also, usually, go UP.

the Weapon finesse builds get like 3 Extra points of accuracy, 2 points of reflex and 3 points of Touch AC, but they lose 2-3 points of damage per swing, lose 2 hit points per level and eat a -2 to fortitude saves

this is really only a boost for incorporeal foes who care more about non-strength based forms of combat such as level drain, spells or ability damage, and for weapon finesse builds built for undead, constructs and other creatures whose hit points and fortitude saves are not dependant on a constitution score

Huh. Tell that to my PC who was almost killed by a "young" creature whose poison, even after the young adjustment, had a DC 16 Fort save for a party at APL 5 or so.

And it delivers the poison through ranged attacks using quills. So, the save is slightly easier, but it hits more often, doing slightly less damage per hit. That, to me, adds up to an ugly situation for the PCs, especially since it also gets a higher initiative, so it is flatfooted for less time...


kinevon wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
kinevon wrote:

Note: Be very, very careful witht he Young template.

There are some creatures for whom the template is a boost, overall, rather than a reductio, in abilities.

As an example, anything with Weapon Finesse improves its ability to hit with this template, and its AC will also, usually, go UP.

the Weapon finesse builds get like 3 Extra points of accuracy, 2 points of reflex and 3 points of Touch AC, but they lose 2-3 points of damage per swing, lose 2 hit points per level and eat a -2 to fortitude saves

this is really only a boost for incorporeal foes who care more about non-strength based forms of combat such as level drain, spells or ability damage, and for weapon finesse builds built for undead, constructs and other creatures whose hit points and fortitude saves are not dependant on a constitution score

Huh. Tell that to my PC who was almost killed by a "young" creature whose poison, even after the young adjustment, had a DC 16 Fort save for a party at APL 5 or so.

And it delivers the poison through ranged attacks using quills. So, the save is slightly easier, but it hits more often, doing slightly less damage per hit. That, to me, adds up to an ugly situation for the PCs, especially since it also gets a higher initiative, so it is flatfooted for less time...

that again, proves my case of it being a boost to non strength based forms of combat, poison deals ability damage does it not?

you are mentioning a creature whose primary combat form involves use of ability damage, this is clearly not a case of it boosting a creature that relies on damaging hit points. if the primary damage mode is something other than hit points, then the young template would be a boost. strength based clearly means damaging hit points.

i didn't even know of the existence of a ranged poisoner, but add that to the list of corner cases where being young is actually a benefit.


My only experience fighting a creature with the young template was against a young basilisk in a PFS adventure. 4 of 6 PCs failed the initial save. It was mostly level 1 PCs. If I ran an encounter like that I would rule that a young basilisk only turns creatures to stone for 1d6 minutes. It was a great adventure, but resulted in a tpk. The EL for the encounter was much lower than how dangerous it actually was, which seconds the observation that creatures who do not rely on direct damage are very dangerous with the young template. The save DC was reasonable for the CR, but not for level 1 PCs.

That said, a tiny sized young gnome flying a small-sized flying mount with a huge bonus to hit and 1d3 base damage should be entertaining.


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some creatures are reasonable for their CR, but not for the level of the PCs expected to encounter that CR. shadows and stirges being a pair of examples. easy to take out when you have the resources, but not a winnable threat for a low level party. CR is relative, but yeah, level 1 PCs should never face a basilisk, no matter how young,


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Xedrek wrote:
I think the best bonus is the -1 CR. It allows the application of a +1 CR template without a level adjustment

*innocently* Young Advanced, anyone?

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