Consequence-Free PvP in Alpha - Yes, It's Possible


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I was just kidding, by the way. I read Twilight every year on my birthday. #bestbook #teamjacob #yolo #uyaav

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
Some classes will be good at solo PvP, some at group PvP, and some just good at PvE. There will be a good reason to play every class but they are not intended to be equally good in every scenario.

I apologize in advance for the minor thread-jack:

Here's the view from the other side of the mirror. "Doing a lot of solo PvP, and developing feats that make you successful at it, will lead you toward acquiring levels in certain classes. Doing a lot of group PvP, and developing feats to master it, will result in you acquiring levels in other classes. Pursuing different activities will make it easier to gain levels in certain classes, but not every scenario will lead you to high levels in the same classes, or in every class."

Play how you like, and let your play-style organically guide your class levels. Let class levels be a result of your feat choices, not the reason you choose feats.

Edit: At least I hope this method will work. The need to slot only one class item at a time (divine focus/wand/etc.) might end up making this system impractical.

End of thread-jack.

Back to this thread:

Nice bit of experimentation there, Nihimon. It sounds like that should allow the Alpha players to try out PvP, while still being able to enter cities to train.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
<Tavernhold>Malrunwa Soves wrote:

"That suicide is painless

It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is.

I will try to work in "A Boy and His Dog" quote next time.

Goblin Squad Member

Please no Harlan Ellison. It is emersion breaking and uh. Have you talked with the person?

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Damn you people for making me take Caldeathe's side! We're supposed to have a rivalry or something!

I promise not to read anything into it.

Goblin Squad Member

For those that support, "If it can be done, it should be done"...

"Technically correct: the best kind of correct."

Goblin Squad Member

This has got to be one of the funniest OPs I have ever seen. So, in order to pvp consequence free, you have to use an exploit.

Thanks again Nihimon for showing us both sides.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:

This has got to be one of the funniest OPs I have ever seen. So, in order to pvp consequence free, you have to use an exploit.

Thanks again Nihimon for showing us both sides.

The problem with the kind of PvP that Nihimon describes is PvP between willing participants. What happens in that is that neither party suffers significant risk and their fights become fairly predictable. It become arena PvP

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.

Well to be good, you must stick to it. Which you won't if you don't like it. Your logic is flawed.

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.
Well to be good, you must stick to it. Which you won't if you don't like it. Your logic is flawed.

Ahh, so you say they were simply quitters. The bodes even less well for those settlements that actively sought primarily players adverse to PvP. But that was already apparent to me when I suggested that even crafters should have a certain minimum of PvP skills, and the push back I got on that idea.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Audoucet wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.
Well to be good, you must stick to it. Which you won't if you don't like it. Your logic is flawed.
Ahh, so you say they were simply quitters. The bodes even less well for those settlements that actively sought primarily players adverse to PvP. But that was already apparent to me when I suggested that even crafters should have a certain minimum of PvP skills, and the push back I got on that idea.

You didn't get pushback on the idea that crafters should have some combat skills. You got pushback on the idea that crafters are 2nd class citizens. Looking back I see that you were not so much a part of that.

Others were far more vocal about it. Now that you need some in your settlement, I will bet they are "useful" enough that you won't alienate them. An Alt as a Full crafter/gatherer is very useful for maximizing potential.

Even I will agree that if you only play one character, you should have some combat skills...

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Audoucet wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.
Well to be good, you must stick to it. Which you won't if you don't like it. Your logic is flawed.
Ahh, so you say they were simply quitters. The bodes even less well for those settlements that actively sought primarily players adverse to PvP. But that was already apparent to me when I suggested that even crafters should have a certain minimum of PvP skills, and the push back I got on that idea.

You didn't get pushback on the idea that crafters should have some combat skills. You got pushback on the idea that crafters are 2nd class citizens. If I recall, you were only on that kick for about 75% of that train wreck.

Others were far more vocal about it. Now that you need some in your settlement, I will bet they are "useful" enough that you won't alienate them. An Alt as a Full crafter/gatherer is very useful for maximizing potential.

Even I will agree that if you only play one character, you should have some combat skills...

You recall It incorrectly. I never said they were 2nd class citizens, I said if they were unwilling to fight for the common defense they were not worthy of being citizens at all.

I had merely suggested that all characters train basic combat / survival skills and if the need arose that they defend the settlement during a siege, they do so. That was what had push back. Some argued that dedicated crafters should not be expected to spend experience on skills that were not primarily what they wanted to do.

In our settlement of Aragon, we have been specifically clear to all of our citizens the expectation that all are expected to have basic combat / survival skills. Even with over 80% of our citizens being PvP focused! that remaining 15 - 20% are to be better in combat than a starting character (unless of course they are one).

Aragon is much like Sparta, everyone is a warrior.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Bluddwolf wrote:
Xeen wrote:

This has got to be one of the funniest OPs I have ever seen. So, in order to pvp consequence free, you have to use an exploit.

Thanks again Nihimon for showing us both sides.

The problem with the kind of PvP that Nihimon describes is PvP between willing participants. What happens in that is that neither party suffers significant risk and their fights become fairly predictable. It become arena PvP

The kind of PVP that Nihimon describes is just a way to test out the PVP systems in Alpha without losing the ability to train. I'm pretty sure he's not advocating this as a viable form of PVP for EE and beyond. Bringing an exploit like this to the attention of GW pretty much guarantees the loophole will be closed by the end of Alpha.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Bluddwolf

I looked back. You are right and I adjusted my post above. I apologize for stating your position in a way that was incorrect.

There are plenty of ways and things to debate with you, but misinformation is not my favorite tool.

:)

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
The kind of PVP that Nihimon describes is just a way to test out the PVP systems in Alpha without losing the ability to train. I'm pretty sure he's not advocating this as a viable form of PVP for EE and beyond.

I'm sure he is not either, but them he is not truly testing the PvP system either.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Right now, from what I understand, vigorously testing nonconsensual PVP means abandoning the character, or being satisfied with your current set of feats, because the only training available is in the middle of a bunch of guards. It's just early- to (hopefully) mid-stage Alpha. Real PVP will emerge when you can get training outside NPC settlements. Don't worry, nonconsensual PVP has been part of the plan since the earliest dev blogs.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Karlbob,

I'm not worried that it won't be there, I'm worried that it won't be fully tested before EE.

Goblin Squad Member

Since it came up, I'd like to reiterate The Seventh Veil's stance on PvP averse characters: We value you and want you in our Settlement(s). We've long recognized the very simple fact that having you there, happily contributing in the areas where you're comfortable, is a net positive to our community even if you don't participate in other areas where you're less comfortable.

To put it mathematically:

X + 1 * C + 0 * P > X + 0 * C + 0 * P, where X is a Community, C is Crafter-added value, and P is PvPer-added value.

I would also add that we think many of the players who are currently PvP-averse will eventually want to "dip their toes in", and might find that they really enjoy it. We want to give them a chance to do that (or not) at their own pace.

Goblin Squad Member

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Bluddwolf wrote:
I had merely suggested that all characters train basic combat / survival skills and if the need arose that they defend the settlement during a siege, they do so.

I don't think this is too much to ask, to be honest. Given that basic rank 1 skills are just a drop in the bucket in terms of XP cost you really aren't asking much of a sacrifice to say hey, please train some rank 1 combat skills...just in case.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Surprising though it may be, I'm agreeing with Bluddwolf on this. If it's going to be a key part of the world, it needs to get the sh*t kicked out of it at an early stage, before it risks too many exploits or damaging characters.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nihimon wrote:

To put it mathematically:

X + 1 * C + 0 * P > X + 0 * C + 0 * P, where X is a Community, C is Crafter-added value, and P is PvPer-added value.

So...

C > 0

Ie. crafters add value. I would hope so :p

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Xeen wrote:

This has got to be one of the funniest OPs I have ever seen. So, in order to pvp consequence free, you have to use an exploit.

Thanks again Nihimon for showing us both sides.

What is the exploit? Is it that you don't lose Reputation for attacking yourself? Is it that you gain the murderer flag for killing yourself? Is it that anyone can attack someone with the murderer flag without reputation loss?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
I had merely suggested that all characters train basic combat / survival skills and if the need arose that they defend the settlement during a siege, they do so.
I don't think this is too much to ask, to be honest. Given that basic rank 1 skills are just a drop in the bucket in terms of XP cost you really aren't asking much of a sacrifice to say hey, please train some rank 1 combat skills...just in case.

A thousand XP or so gets you to the point that you won't be negligible in a fight, but I suspect that it won't make you a major contributor.

A bunch of archers with cheap bows might be the lowest-hanging fruit for mass combat; they won't last long if engaged, but they will do more than zero damage if unmolested and will distract a combatant briefly if engaged.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

In my view, the exploit is simply that one can get PK achievements for suicide. That shouldn't be possible in EE, imo. It appears that that wasn't Nihimon's goal - he was looking for a method to engage in rep-loss free PvP for testing.

In EE we'll likely be able to get the PK achievements from defending ourselves or engaging others during WoT. And for those that need exploits, there will always be the possibility of letting another character pick up a criminal flag (say, by kill-stealing), and grinding out PK achievements that way.

Goblin Squad Member

You misunderstand what Nihimon is doing, Urman. Suicide doesn't get you any achievements. Suicide is a method by which you can get the Murderer flag, which then allows others to attack you without consequence, which allows you to fight back and (if you win) get achievements.

If suicide counted directly as a player kill, yes, that would be a problem. That's not the case here.

Goblin Squad Member

His post implied that killing yourself gets you the "player killer" achievement.

Goblin Squad Member

"To get enough Social points to advance Knowldge: Nature & History, you must get the Player Killer achievements.

The easiest way to get those without losing Reputation is to:

* repeatedly kill yourself.
* Once you've killed yourself a number of times, you will have the Murderer Flag for 24 hours (I believe).
* Once you have the Murderer Flag, anyone can attack you without losing Reputation.
* If you encounter anyone else who has the Murderer Flag, you should be able to fight each other freely without worrying about Reputation loss."

Does adding punctuation make it clearer? Killing yourself doesn't get you the player killer achievement, but it does get you toward the player killer achievement/

Goblin Squad Member

You might be right, but we don't know that from the info provided.

It's ambiguous, because Nihimon was posting about how to do Consequence free PvP. it's just as easy to read as:

*To get enough Social points to advance Knowldge: Nature & History, you must get the Player Killer achievements. The easiest way to get those without losing Reputation is to repeatedly kill yourself.*

*Once you've killed yourself a number of times, you will have the Murderer Flag for 24 hours (I believe). Once you have the Murderer Flag, anyone can attack you without losing Reputation. If you encounter anyone else who has the Murderer Flag, you should be able to fight each other freely without worrying about Reputation loss.*

edit: The existence of the "(I believe)" implies that Nihimon has done the former, but not the later, so would not know that the latter is needed to get the achievement, or he wouldn't have said it is the easiest way.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
most people who express an aversion to trying a PvP focused game have usually never played one. They get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at it
Do you have a reference on that one, or is it an internet statistic?
Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.

I'm actualy pretty decent at PvP (depending upon the game)...

- There are plenty of times I don't feel in the mood to play it. I prefer to play PvE games during those times.

- There are many games (MOST MMO's qualify here, so far in my experience) or game types where the quality of the PvP game play is VASTLY inferior to the quality of the PvE game play. When that's the case, I prefer PvE game play.

- I'm usualy more of a cooperative then a competitive person. That doesn't mean I can't be very good at something when I choose to compete at it. Example, when I was teenager I did some ski racing competitively. My NASTAR handicap was around a 15, that's without any practicing, preperation, training or buying equipment geared toward racing. While I did have fun doing it, I got alot more enjoyment from teaching friends how to ski then I ever did from racing.

Personaly, I think you are taking your own individual preferences and those of your circle of friends and projecting them onto the gaming populace as a whole.

Note, this is NOT to make a point about PvP focus in PFO... obviously it's going to have a heavy PvP focus, the designers have stated as much... also obviously those of us intending to play it understand that. It's responding to your general proposition.

I am certainly expecting to PvP SOME portion of the time in PFO. If PvP becomes an overly dominant play activity in PFO AND that PvP is of high quality game play (unlike most existing MMO's) I will most likely play it only when I am only in a mood to PvP. IF that is the case, I will most certainly seek out a 2nd MMO to play....and I will almost certainly have an aversion to trying a PvP focused game as that MMO... unless I am looking for it to replace PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:

You misunderstand what Nihimon is doing, Urman. Suicide doesn't get you any achievements. Suicide is a method by which you can get the Murderer flag, which then allows others to attack you without consequence, which allows you to fight back and (if you win) get achievements.

If suicide counted directly as a player kill, yes, that would be a problem. That's not the case here.

Actually, Urman has it right.

The quickest way to get the Player Killer Achievements so far is to repeatedly kill yourself. The side-effect of that is getting the Murderer Flag (without losing Reputation) thereby enabling consequence-free PvP against you.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:

The easiest way to get those without losing Reputation is to:

* repeatedly kill yourself.
* Once you've killed yourself a number of times, you will have the Murderer Flag for 24 hours (I believe).
* Once you have the Murderer Flag, anyone can attack you without losing Reputation.
* If you encounter anyone else who has the Murderer Flag, you should be able to fight each other freely without worrying about Reputation loss."

Somewhat understandable, but the actual quote was:

Nihimon wrote:
The easiest way to get those without losing Reputation is to repeatedly kill yourself.

Period. Full stop.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh! Yeah, in that case there's a significant problem there.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes. The social achievement being attainable by suicide was a bag report. Additionally, there is an additional bug that I am trying to figure out how to reproduce that appears to present during repeated suicides. Observing the state which is presumed to be Murderer was a side observation of testing the above.

Alpha is about testing stuff, and behavior that would likely be considered abusive in EE is not just expected but often required to perform conscientious testing. That would be sufficient reason for a wipe at the end of Alpha, even though it doesn't hold a candle to the various real reasons.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Ahh, so you say they were simply quitters.

Are you a world class chess player ? If not, are you a quitter ?

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Ahh, so you say they were simply quitters.
Are you a world class chess player ? If not, are you a quitter ?

I never played chess competitively, but if I did I would continue playing up through the ranks until I played at a world class level.

If you're asking me if I ever quit anything, "No", nothing of any substance and certainly not as a teenager or into adulthood.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Is anyone else visualizing a conversation going on in the foreground and a fighting ball of dust bouncing around the background? :/

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Audoucet wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Ahh, so you say they were simply quitters.
Are you a world class chess player ? If not, are you a quitter ?

I never played chess competitively, but if I did I would continue playing up through the ranks until I played at a world class level.

If you're asking me if I ever quit anything, "No", nothing of any substance and certainly not as a teenager or into adulthood.

So, you haven't started enough things to reprioritize? That's... sad.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
So, you haven't started enough things to reprioritize? That's... sad.

You don't measure the quality of your dedication based on what you started, but on what you have followed through to their successful or satisfactory conclusions.

I never left a job, without having a new and better job to step into. Therefore, I never quit a job, but instead moved on.

I never started an educational program I did not complete. High school diploma and three college degrees. Added to that several stages of licensing and other training courses.

I served in the military for one term of 8 years. Numerous training schools, including three MOSs, Primary Leadership Course and several other training courses (Crew Served Weapons training; Drug Testing Team).

I have beta tested a dozen or more computer games (primarily MMOs), as well have completed or concluded many games.

I'm assuming you might consider leaving a game, quitting a game. I would argue against that particular judgement. MMOs have several forms of "conclusion" in my view.

1. Completing all tasks of the main story.
2. Competing all tasks of main quests and side quests.
3. Leveling a character to the level cap.
4. The game shuts down.
5. The addition of new content does not keep up with your consumption of it.

I could probably add a half dozen more examples, but I think I have shown my point.

The argument made in the article you linked, does not explain the argument you believe you are making or refute the argument I have made.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
So, you haven't started enough things to reprioritize? That's... sad.

You don't measure the quality of your dedication based on what you started, but on what you have followed through to their successful or satisfactory conclusions.

I never left a job, without having a new and better job to step into. Therefore, I never quit a job, but instead moved on.

I never started an educational program I did not complete. High school diploma and three college degrees. Added to that several stages of licensing and other training courses.

I served in the military for one term of 8 years. Numerous training schools, including three MOSs, Primary Leadership Course and several other training courses (Crew Served Weapons training; Drug Testing Team).

I have beta tested a dozen or more computer games (primarily MMOs), as well have completed or concluded many games.

I'm assuming you might consider leaving a game, quitting a game. I would argue against that particular judgement. MMOs have several forms of "conclusion" in my view.

1. Completing all tasks of the main story.
2. Competing all tasks of main quests and side quests.
3. Leveling a character to the level cap.
4. The game shuts down.
5. The addition of new content does not keep up with your consumption of it.

I could probably add a half dozen more examples, but I think I have shown my point.

The argument made in the article you linked, does not explain the argument you believe you are making or refute the argument I have made.

None of those accomplishments is the equivalent of becoming a world-class chess player. Many of them are the equivalent of playing chess competitively, plateauing at the level where you are the best player that you know personally, and then not playing chess competitively anymore.

Goblin Squad Member

This is a very strange conversation.

Do we play chess in PfO now?

I ignore this thread for one day and I have no idea what is going on.

Goblin Squad Member

What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?

Whomever can hold a "Niccolo Machiavelli" club membership?

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?
Whomever can hold a "Niccolo Machiavelli" club membership?

Someone can craft me a club with Niccolo Machiavelli-esque key words and I can bludgeon people to death with it. Will that work?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
Audoucet wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Ahh, so you say they were simply quitters.
Are you a world class chess player ? If not, are you a quitter ?

I never played chess competitively, but if I did I would continue playing up through the ranks until I played at a world class level.

If you're asking me if I ever quit anything, "No", nothing of any substance and certainly not as a teenager or into adulthood.

Why didn't you ?

Goblin Squad Member

Audoucet wrote:
Why didn't you ?

I was too busy discovering what the color purple tastes like.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?

Anyone who operates a mitril golem (or whatever the Titan-equivalent is). Yes, that means it might not be possible; there is no world-class tic-tac-toe equivalent either.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?
Anyone who operates a mitril golem (or whatever the Titan-equivalent is). Yes, that means it might not be possible; there is no world-class tic-tac-toe equivalent either.

I think ESPN would differ:

Quote:
[fade in, camera shows the presenter]: Welcome all! This is ESPN transmitting directly from the Beira-Mar Stadium in Portugal! I’m Richard Hornochsen and I’m here to present you the finals of the Tic-Tac-Toe World Championships. This has been an incredible week here for all of us in the ESPN team, it’s a rare privilege to rub shoulders with so many luminaries of this ancient game. We are all really very proud to have had the opportunity to meet and talk to so many masters and grandmasters. But, as you all know, nothing lasts forever, so now we’re here for the final match, the one game that will decide who’s going to be crowned world champion.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

@ Karlbob,

I'm not worried that it won't be there, I'm worried that it won't be fully tested before EE.

Right now, that seems like a valid worry. Luckily, Alpha isn't over yet. Hopefully, GW will provide a way to test it before EE.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?
Anyone who operates a mitril golem (or whatever the Titan-equivalent is). Yes, that means it might not be possible; there is no world-class tic-tac-toe equivalent either.

I think ESPN would differ:

Quote:
[fade in, camera shows the presenter]: Welcome all! This is ESPN transmitting directly from the Beira-Mar Stadium in Portugal! I’m Richard Hornochsen and I’m here to present you the finals of the Tic-Tac-Toe World Championships. This has been an incredible week here for all of us in the ESPN team, it’s a rare privilege to rub shoulders with so many luminaries of this ancient game. We are all really very proud to have had the opportunity to meet and talk to so many masters and grandmasters. But, as you all know, nothing lasts forever, so now we’re here for the final match, the one game that will decide who’s going to be crowned world champion.

Was that ESPN 8, The Ocho? Right before the world dodgeball championship, maybe?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
What will be the World Class Chess player equivalent in PFO?
Anyone who operates a mitril golem (or whatever the Titan-equivalent is). Yes, that means it might not be possible; there is no world-class tic-tac-toe equivalent either.

I think ESPN would differ:

Quote:
[fade in, camera shows the presenter]: Welcome all! This is ESPN transmitting directly from the Beira-Mar Stadium in Portugal! I’m Richard Hornochsen and I’m here to present you the finals of the Tic-Tac-Toe World Championships. This has been an incredible week here for all of us in the ESPN team, it’s a rare privilege to rub shoulders with so many luminaries of this ancient game. We are all really very proud to have had the opportunity to meet and talk to so many masters and grandmasters. But, as you all know, nothing lasts forever, so now we’re here for the final match, the one game that will decide who’s going to be crowned world champion.

The first page of Google results has only basic information and parodies, including that one.

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