137ben |
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Psionics does not bypass SR.
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. When the rule about psionics–magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.
Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)
All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.
The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Spellcraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura), while detect psionics detects spells, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Spellcraft check is necessary to identify the school of magic).
Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.
If you were letting psions bypass SR, that's on you, not the system.
If you want to allow it, do so. Otherwise, don't. That's not for us to decide, it is a decision for you and your group to make.Marcus Robert Hosler |
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I stopped allowing psionics almost seven years ago, after I finally realized that almost 99% of the people who wanted to use them just wanted a way around SR.
Why should I allow it back in the game?
In my opinion, if everyone in the group just played classes from Ultimate Psionics, you will have a more balanced and better mechanical game. (Same is true for a a partial party of psionics/traditional)
*Also see transparency rules for the SR thing.
Lincoln Hills |
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I haven't used them since the PF switchover, in part because I don't miss them all that much. The three monsters I most closely associate with psi can't receive official stats for legal reasons, and I've had plenty of plots since 2010 (my switchover year) that didn't involve psi in any way.
Which I suppose I could class as 'lulling them into a false sense of security'. ;)
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider |
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I stopped allowing psionics almost seven years ago, after I finally realized that almost 99% of the people who wanted to use them just wanted a way around SR.
Why should I allow it back in the game?
Psionics doesn't bypass spell resistance, has a power point cap, isn't as easy to metamagic, and blows through resources faster than magic. and there isn't much unique to Psionics you cannot also do better with magic. psionics are merely easier to track and more balanced. if you follow the transperency rules.
if you wanted to bypass spell resistance and use your techniques in an anti magic field while silenced and feebleminded, you would be looking at the book of 9 swords, which is balanced by targeting enemy AC and having prerequisites on higher level maneuvers. book of 9 swords is balanced with 3.5 except for a few minor crusader exclusive tricks that are extremely hard to pull off and require highly specific combinations of race and equipment. easy to ban the open ended exploding 1d2 trick the crusader is famous for that can only be done with a medium shuriken or small whip.
DungeonmasterCal |
I like the options psionics allow; the flexibility and the exciting classes such as the psion, the cryptic, the psychic warrior, and the soulknife. I only have one player with a psionic character, but I use them as NPCs. There's a history of psionics in my homebrew, and while they're treated with suspicion, they're not uncommon.
Aranna |
psionics are merely easier to track and more balanced.
I have yet to see this assertion hold any truth. While much of the rest of your post is true I find it troubling that you would drop such misinformation in there with it. Psionics are well balanced internally but not well balanced with magic. And as far as ease of tracking powers NOTHING beats the sorcerer. I watched one online game where a player constantly miss spent his psi points. And while his type is probably rare I haven't seen anything like it with slotted magic; maybe slots are easier to understand than points? or even possibly mechanically harder to make errors with? I can't say for sure but nearly every game I played had magic while only a few had psionics, so logically I should be seeing more errors with magic by far if psionics were easier to track.
Also... I found it easier to metamagic psi vs spells, especially if you have the much touted magic/psi transparency since you can use any metamagic feat as a metapsi feat on the fly with a simple application of points. With magic you are often forced to plan ahead your use of the feats (wizard/cleric); which is trickier by far.
And I am curious why you think the spell version of the same power is somehow superior to the psi version. Most people I talk to have the opposite opinion since using points makes using those powers more scalable and easier to select on the fly. It is one of the huge selling points for using the psi system.
Landon Winkler |
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The reason I allowed it back in 2nd Edition was because it felt more like magic than wizards did. Nowhere outside of D&D-inspired worlds do you see the weird preparation cycle. But casting out of a pool of energy is a fairly standard trope.
It's less of an issue for me with sorcerers, and soon arcanists, but psionics still does a good job of representing the average fantasy caster.
So for us it's just flavor. I'd still allow someone to bring in a Dreamscarred Press psionics character into our Pathfinder game, but there are already so many characters they want to play it's unlikely to come up.
Cheers!
Landon
Aranna |
I would presume it's because spells scale on their own, without having to be augmented, at higher levels.
I can see this with blaster spells but isn't that balanced by the level cap? A third level Fireball magic spell can't do more than 10d6... While the psion version has no such cap on it's power. Sure it makes it cost more to use... but against the spell becoming useless due to game level getting too far ahead of the cap I am inclined to think psi wins that fight at certain levels while at other levels spells win. As you can see... Not balanced vs magic.
Orthos |
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The Psion version does have a cap, though it's a non-traditional one - you can't spend more Power Points than your level in one manifestation. So if you're level 10, and the basic Fireball-type spell does 5d6 normally and costs 5 PP to cast, you can only spend 5 more PP to augment it, which I believe gets you an extra 1d6 per point spent.
Sure, it ekes out a bit better when you get above 10th and can augment it to hit that 11d6 the arcane caster can't hit without metamagic, but at that point the arcane caster's going to be using a higher-level spell that does more damage anyway, and to get a spell that mirrors that you'll have to spend a relatively-equivalent PP investment.
Is it a perfect 1-for-1 balance? No, but then again, what is? But I'd certainly say it's balanced in the question of "is this broken?". Provided of course the GM and the player know what they're doing and follow the rules.
Aranna |
Oh? was Auren talking about balance in terms of broken? I didn't get that impression. I am talking about balance in terms of parity between the two systems and when one or the other are clearly superior in different situations then they aren't balanced vs each other. As far as being broken? No psionics by DSP are not broken as far as I have seen, at least not any more than magic itself is.
137ben |
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Also... I found it easier to metamagic psi vs spells, especially if you have the much touted magic/psi transparency since you can use any metamagic feat as a metapsi feat on the fly with a simple application of points. With magic you are often forced to plan ahead your use of the feats (wizard/cleric); which is trickier by far.
You are entitled to your opinion of other things, but this is factually wrong. Metamagic/metapsionics are not part of the magic-psionics transparency. You cannot use metamagic on psionic powers, just like you cannot use metamagic on spell-like abilities. There are separate metapsionic feats for psionic powers, and separate meta-spell-like-ability feats for SLAs. They are separate.
As far as which one is easier, personally I find metapsionics comparable to sorcerer's metamagic. The metapsionic feats all require you to expend psionic focus. As a psion you can't really do anything without focus, so your next action is going to be to recover it, which is a full round action. That means manifesting a modified power+recovering focus is a full round action+a standard action, which is longer than the full round action required by a sorcerer. The feat Psionic Meditation allows you to recover focus as a move action instead of a full round action, so that you can use a metapsionic power and recover focus as a standard action and a move action. That puts metapsionics at exactly the same level of power as a spontaneous metamagic, for the cost of an extra feat.
They are both better IMO than metamagic on a prepared caster, which is fine as metamagic has always been spontaneous casting's biggest advantage over prepared casting.
Orthos |
Aranna wrote:Also... I found it easier to metamagic psi vs spells, especially if you have the much touted magic/psi transparency since you can use any metamagic feat as a metapsi feat on the fly with a simple application of points. With magic you are often forced to plan ahead your use of the feats (wizard/cleric); which is trickier by far.You are entitled to your opinion of other things, but this is factually wrong. Metamagic/metapsionics are not part of the magic-psionics transparency. You cannot use metamagic on psionic powers, just like you cannot use metamagic on spell-like abilities. There are separate metapsionic feats for psionic powers, and separate meta-spell-like-ability feats for SLAs. They are separate.
Oh wow I didn't even notice that paragraph. Yeah Aranna I don't know who told you you could use Metamagic feats on Psionics and vice versa but barring house rules that's quite wrong.
LazarX |
I stopped allowing psionics almost seven years ago, after I finally realized that almost 99% of the people who wanted to use them just wanted a way around SR.
Why should I allow it back in the game?
If you don't want to, you shouldn't. Case closed.
The material is freely available for you to examine and make the decision over. You will not be a "lesser" DM if you refuse psionics, nor will you be some kind of hero for allowing it. You will be someone who has made a decision in deciding the flavor of your campaign. And that is your one sacred inalienable right as a DM.
Aranna |
137ben wrote:Oh wow I didn't even notice that paragraph. Yeah Aranna I don't know who told you you could use Metamagic feats on Psionics and vice versa but barring house rules that's quite wrong.Aranna wrote:Also... I found it easier to metamagic psi vs spells, especially if you have the much touted magic/psi transparency since you can use any metamagic feat as a metapsi feat on the fly with a simple application of points. With magic you are often forced to plan ahead your use of the feats (wizard/cleric); which is trickier by far.You are entitled to your opinion of other things, but this is factually wrong. Metamagic/metapsionics are not part of the magic-psionics transparency. You cannot use metamagic on psionic powers, just like you cannot use metamagic on spell-like abilities. There are separate metapsionic feats for psionic powers, and separate meta-spell-like-ability feats for SLAs. They are separate.
Are you sure? My GM was quite emphatic in his assertion that this was correct (of course this was back in 3.5e...) but he is one of my trusted go to sources for rulings. And and as it was explained to me makes total sense... it works so why would this be excluded from transparency?
Freehold DM |
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I'm not a fan of psionics for the same reason I'm not a fan of samurai and ninjas - a combination of special snowflake elitism, intentional game derailing, and possibly intentionally misunderstood rules governing the class on the part of the zealots encouraging it's use.
that said, I LOVE Dark Sun. Weird.
LazarX |
I'm not a fan of psionics for the same reason I'm not a fan of samurai and ninjas - a combination of special snowflake elitism, intentional game derailing, and possibly intentionally misunderstood rules governing the class on the part of the zealots encouraging it's use.
that said, I LOVE Dark Sun. Weird.
Not really. You could take all the psionics out of Dark Sun, and still have a ton of setting left.
Orthos |
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Orthos wrote:Are you sure? My GM was quite emphatic in his assertion that this was correct (of course this was back in 3.5e...) but he is one of my trusted go to sources for rulings. And and as it was explained to me makes total sense... it works so why would this be excluded from transparency?137ben wrote:Oh wow I didn't even notice that paragraph. Yeah Aranna I don't know who told you you could use Metamagic feats on Psionics and vice versa but barring house rules that's quite wrong.Aranna wrote:Also... I found it easier to metamagic psi vs spells, especially if you have the much touted magic/psi transparency since you can use any metamagic feat as a metapsi feat on the fly with a simple application of points. With magic you are often forced to plan ahead your use of the feats (wizard/cleric); which is trickier by far.You are entitled to your opinion of other things, but this is factually wrong. Metamagic/metapsionics are not part of the magic-psionics transparency. You cannot use metamagic on psionic powers, just like you cannot use metamagic on spell-like abilities. There are separate metapsionic feats for psionic powers, and separate meta-spell-like-ability feats for SLAs. They are separate.
As written Metamagic feats only apply to Spells, not Spell-Like Abilities, Supernatural Abilities, or Powers; Metapsionic feats likewise specify Powers. I don't see why they would have bothered creating Metapsionic feats and the completely different system of rules for using them if they intended Metamagic feats to function.
This is the first time I've ever heard someone say the two could interact at all. Ever.
Orthos |
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I'm not a fan of psionics for the same reason I'm not a fan of samurai and ninjas - a combination of special snowflake elitism, intentional game derailing, and possibly intentionally misunderstood rules governing the class on the part of the zealots encouraging it's use.
... we continue to have absolutely nothing in common with our gaming experiences.
Freehold DM |
Freehold DM wrote:I'm not a fan of psionics for the same reason I'm not a fan of samurai and ninjas - a combination of special snowflake elitism, intentional game derailing, and possibly intentionally misunderstood rules governing the class on the part of the zealots encouraging it's use.... we continue to have absolutely nothing in common with our gaming experiences.
weird.
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider |
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Oh? was Auren talking about balance in terms of broken? I didn't get that impression. I am talking about balance in terms of parity between the two systems and when one or the other are clearly superior in different situations then they aren't balanced vs each other. As far as being broken? No psionics by DSP are not broken as far as I have seen, at least not any more than magic itself is.
i meant psionics were balanced better with other classes of their type, balanced better with noncasters and balanced better with partial casters than full casting is, because it has a lower power cieling.
Jericho Graves |
I've played in four campaign worlds. One with psionics only (in which psionics felt quite balanced compared to fighters and rogues.). One with Magic only (standard setting chu know?). One with both (it didn't feel that off.). One campaign with neither.
I've played with power gamers, optimizers, newbies, and story-over-mechanics players. (you know the type, Fighter with 13 str, 8 con, and 16 int because the town they came from was beset with plague, and their character was called to be a town guard because the population had been that thinned out at the time.)
In the end I'd just like to say, any system can be broken, optimized, power gamed, or picked clean of nasty combos. At the end of the day, the story matters more, and this isn't a PVP game. This is a cooperative game. If the party has a broken build of a psion, and manages to save the kingdom, what matters more? The fact the DMs challenge to trumped, or the fact that the players had a hell of a time laughing about how easy that was and end up giving the final boss a hilarious nickname in the histories the bards write?
My feelings on pisonics though? if you actually follow most of the rules governing them (such as spending an amount of power points only equal to your "caster level" total on any power) they aren't that broken. The problems come from the non-transparency rule which our groups follow. Alot of your standard magical defenses don't work versus Psionics. That Drow Spell Resistance means nothing against a psionic power. And Magic becomes king in an area of Anti-Psionic Fields. A Dm can invalidate anything without even trying if he wanted to, though his players might get angry. "Oh you're level 1? How about a CR 23 Mythic Dragon as your first fight? YAAAAY! TPK."
In the end, system squabbling should really be kept to private groups. People on the internet are going to like and dislike a great amount of things. People in your group? Well you know them on a more personal level.
May all your attack rolls be crits, and all of your treasure WBL appropriate. Peace :)
Haladir |
I've never been a fan of psionics in the D&D family of games.
The whole look-and-feel of psionics as interpreted for AD&D just doesn't feel like fantasy to me. It feels more like 1960s/70s-era sci-fi, and/or parapsychology from the same era.
Maybe I'm just both old-school and a huge fan of The Dying Earth, but I'm also not a fan of the spell-point / mana pool model of magic for fantasy RPGs. I don't like having to learn a whole other set of rules for effects that are more-or-less the same as the existing magic system.
I am very much looking forward to what Paizo has in store with their Psychic Magic for Occult Adventures. I'm itching to get my hands on the playtest.
That said, there's nothing wrong with the system, per se. DSP's system is excellent (and, yes, I do have a copy.) I can see using it in an alternate setting that doesn't have the standard PFRPG magic system alongside it.
I used the D&D 3.x psionics system in a very short-lived "Agents of PSI" D20 Modern game I ran about 10 years ago. It worked very well in that setting.
Randarak |
My memories of psionics come from 1st Edition AD&D. They were super hard to get powers that seemed to make existing characters too powerful and unbalance the game. Granted, maybe we were doing it wrong, but it just left me with a negative view, and my thoughts never changed. I've gotten along fine without them. If I ever entered a game where they were used, I'd make a typical character for me, and move one. Its just not my thing.
KahnyaGnorc |
In most fantasy I've read/seen, magic users have a pool of energy that they pull from to cast their spells. The more powerful the spell they are trying to cast, the more energy they must use. If they use too much, it will physically harm them in some way.
That seems to me more inline with psionics, with a power point pool, Overchannel/Wild Surge, Body Fuel, and the like.
PIXIE DUST |
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^^^ This
additionally, Many fantasies tend to depict magic as doing a "mental marathon" in that the more powerful spells are like pushing your body harder, so they tend to leave you feeling more drained and exhausted (which could be flavoured as you burning through your power points, and when your pool runs low or dry, your mind just needs to rest and your "energy reserves" are depleted)