[Interjection Games] Your Opinions Shape the Strange Magic Kickstarter!


Product Discussion


Hello, everyone! I'll be unleashing the Strange Magic kickstarter fairly shortly (just as soon as I'm satisfied with the organization surrounding one of the stretch goals). The object of this kickstarter is the reprinting of the truenamer, the ethermancer, and the maestro in an art-filled hardcover book reminiscent of the Tome of Magic, which means plenty of new content for each of them (and a different template for each section). Though stretch goals and backer rewards will be responsible for adding more content for everyone, I'm fairly satisfied with the base expansion content for the maestro and the ethermancer.

The truenamer is another story entirely. There's so much there that it's fairly hard to find where new content needs added. There are a fair number of truenamer owners out there. Please, let me know what you'd like to see added. Recitations, prestige classes, archetypes, inflections, ways to connect truename magic to the standard Pathfinder classes?


Hmmmm.

I'd say connecting them to the standard classes would be my first pick and more recitations for more customization would be the other I'd love to see. Archetypes I love too.

Also potentially something like you've done with the Ethermancer where they can trade something for some really cool and crazy abilities.


Ah, yes, the Codex of the Strained Throat, huge effects that require concentration to maintain. ...All joking aside, some concentration recitations could be cool. Looking into this.


A couple of things you may want to keep in mind for your kickstarter. Make sure you include the word Pathfinder somewhere in the title. Otherwise folks using the search tool won't find it. I've noticed that projects with lots of smaller incremental stretch goals tend to do better and keep folks involved on a daily basis than ones with far off stretch goals. You may also want to just do a softcover to start and leave the hardcover as a stretch goal in order to make sure this KS is a success. Although its not fair, people are wary of first time KS creators as well as second time creators whose first project failed. You want to make sure you leave the first category soon and don't join the second.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

On the bright side, it isn't like he is coming out of nowhere. He already has over 50 products. One thing that I have noticed is the pledge levels can affect a Kickstarter. If there are not any lower cost levels that will affect whether or not someone pledges, but at the same time you want to have some higher levels, too. The cost for each pledge level is important, too. You want it to be worth that pledge level (the better "deal" it is, the more likely people will pledge at that level), likewise you don't want to be giving away too much for free -- the goal is to get funds for the product after all.

Daily updates, or close to it, can also help. Sometimes I have seen it keep people excited, but I have also had it where I get so tired of yammerings that I get annoyed as a backer. Communication is key. I am sure you have seen complaints when a company seems to disappear. Anyway, some things to consider. Communication is good, but being too pushy is annoying.

Some really good examples are Kobold Press and Legendary Games.


Ah as for kickstarters...

Most importantly, after the kickstarter ends keep communicating and keep people in the loop. Been a part of a lot of bad ones that just fall silent for months at a time and you can't do that. An update every week is preferably but at least once a month and preferably every couple of weeks goes a long way.

Give yourself lots of time. I think maybe 1 or 2 out of my 30 odd kickstarters have actually been on time so far. Expect stuff to go wrong and take extra time.

Advertise and stay active during the kickstarter too. There are tons of sites you can hit up and get the word out (a AMA on reddit I've seen used to get the word out during a kickstarter and get your project out).


Smoo979 wrote:
A couple of things you may want to keep in mind for your kickstarter. Make sure you include the word Pathfinder somewhere in the title. Otherwise folks using the search tool won't find it. I've noticed that projects with lots of smaller incremental stretch goals tend to do better and keep folks involved on a daily basis than ones with far off stretch goals. You may also want to just do a softcover to start and leave the hardcover as a stretch goal in order to make sure this KS is a success. Although its not fair, people are wary of first time KS creators as well as second time creators whose first project failed. You want to make sure you leave the first category soon and don't join the second.

The "primary" pledge level will be $20. If the big stretch goal unlocks, a $5 and a $25 level will also unlock. From there, the big contributions let you get archetypes and prestige classes cooked up to your specifications of playstyle and flavor, with a little PBS-style "Brought to you by" tag right there at the segment's intro and put in the book for everyone to enjoy. You also get a full-body character portrait done up by Gary Dupuis. The man does great work.

Given the stretch goals are more content, more content, more content, and a second book full of even more content, the only way I can be sure the price is right is to charge for the PDF and give everyone coupons for at-cost printing straight from the printer. It's conceivable that we add another 50-60 pages to this monster.

So, yes, that there's another question. Do you have an issue with paying $20 for "PDF and at-cost printing when it's done"?


No issues here, but I'm hoping to lay down more than that. Got some overtime to cash in so entice me with the higher stuff. :P


Personally, I'd lay down something for confirmed print +pdf long before I'd consider pdf+ at-cost. I (and I believe I speak for many others) am much more interested in getting everything taken care of all at once (even if that means waiting longer) than having to fiddle around with ordering the print later, after-the-fact.


I'm happy to pledge $20 for the pdf and the coupon for at-cost printing. Obviously it won't suit everyone, but it suits me well, as if I don't like the final product (ahahahahaha like that's going to happen), I can save my money by not paying extra for the printing later. And if I do want the print copy, I can budget for it rather than paying immediately for a hardcover + shipping. That pesky, pesky international shipping...

Of course, I'm quite tired as I type this, so it may not make sense.


Changing Man wrote:
Personally, I'd lay down something for confirmed print +pdf long before I'd consider pdf+ at-cost. I (and I believe I speak for many others) am much more interested in getting everything taken care of all at once (even if that means waiting longer) than having to fiddle around with ordering the print later, after-the-fact.

Ah, perfect, this is the sort of opinion I wanted to have pop up! Tell me, mate, would that fiddling, as you call it, be worth saving around $6 (ignoring savings from shipping the blasted thing once and once only), plus making it so Europeans can order their product from Britain to help them with shipping?

Barring that, would the knowledge that you're making this more readily available to other people mollify you?

Now, let's assume the answer is still no. Would a backer level that assumes all of the following costs and, therefore, is demonstrably less cost-efficient, be something you actually want? Note this means it'll ship to me, I'll package it in a nice Priority Mail box, and ship it out to you. As such, we're probably talking $50 to get the book into your hands rather than, well, the upper $30s.

Breakdown:

Have to assume all printing is British, which is more expensive. - +$4
Have to assume book gets 100 pages of additional expansion - up to +$3.00 overcharge
Charge for base book printing on Kickstarter, have to account for KS's 10% take - $+1.50
Kickstarter's 10% take on the other increases +$0.40 - $0.70

Savings to consumer for fiddling about: $5.90 - $9.20


I'm happy to pay $20 for the PDF. Although print options are not important to me, I have seen many complaints about them on various KS message boards. My guess is that you are best off charging 45-50 for the book hardback upfront, but that is just a wild uneducated guess. My advice would be to talk to recent 3PP publishers about how they think printing options impacted their KS. Rite publishing's Faces of the Tarnashed Souk KS had print options similar to what you originally proposed. Legendary Games Mythic Mania had softcover with hard cover as a stretch goal. One last piece of advice would be to get yourself invited to as many gaming podcasts as you can to try to get the word out.


Smoo979 wrote:
I'm happy to pay $20 for the PDF. Although print options are not important to me, I have seen many complaints about them on various KS message boards. My guess is that you are best off charging 45-50 for the book hardback upfront, but that is just a wild uneducated guess. My advice would be to talk to recent 3PP publishers about how they think printing options impacted their KS. Rite publishing's Faces of the Tarnashed Souk KS had print options similar to what you originally proposed. Legendary Games Mythic Mania had softcover with hard cover as a stretch goal. One last piece of advice would be to get yourself invited to as many gaming podcasts as you can to try to get the word out.

Alright, Smoo, the issue with all of this is that it rips my math open. I have a fix - let me know if it's palatable. Details below.

After printing, shipping, KS fees, etc., the profit for the $45-$50 book would be pretty much the same as the $20 PDF. I happen to have a secondary softcover sitting right behind the hardcover as a stretch goal, and I had intended to have a "repeatable stretch goal" spitting out an extra piece of art every $X. Given this, if I were not to change my model at this point, I could get utterly HAMMERED with print purchases and go bankrupt.

My fix is twofold. First, my initial funding goal will have to be the minimum level to print assuming the absolute least profitable option is the only one people pick, which is going to give me a minimum level of about... $2,500. Second, each backer level is to be given a "point value" based on the amount of profit it spits out, and stretch goals are unlocked based on those points. A PDF is worth 1 point. A softcover book is 1 point. A hardcover book is 1 point. The $250 backer level that adds a new subsystem to the product, gets you a hardcover book, has two bits of art added to the product, gets bunch of flavor swag added to your specifications, etc. etc. is... 8 points, I think.

From there, every 10 points after 50 gets us a stretch piece of art, extra content is written every X points after 50, the second book comes online at 175, and so on.


Well, in my particular case, I wouldn't have something printed and shipped from Britain at a higher cost to my Continental EU address if I can get it sent to my US address cheaper. Any sort of coupon is likely to get 'lost in the shuffle' as I try and budget out my gaming expenses. But, y'know, you gotta do what works best for you :)

Afaik, KS lets you set any number of different pledge levels, so you could (theoretically) have one for pdf only, one for pdf + at-cost print, one for SC print, and one for HC print. And as far as shipping is concerned, a number of the KS's I've backed recently have dropped shipping totally out of the equation, and essentially sent an invoice for actual postage (payable via Paypal or whatever) once everything was ready-to-go. Yeah, that may mean more bookkeeping and an extra spreadsheet, but you kinda end up with that sort of thing anyhow if you include any add-ons to the KS (or available to backers, then paid via Backerkit or whatever. FGG did this recently with Barakus; backers were able to get some things as add-ons at special prices, but the add-ons were paid outside of KS after it was all said and done, and the monies raised by the KS really were JUST for Barakus itself.)

TL;DR - ymmv, pretty much everyone has their own needs and preferences, and you need to do what works best for you, without leaving you bust :)


Whoa, whoa. Hold on, now. I just added four pledge levels and stretch goals subsystem to my theoretical Kickstarter, and we're right back at the same level of fiddling with an "after-the-Kickstarter" invoice bothering the buyer for shipping money. I can see the logic to such a system if I had physical add-ons that used this second invoice, but I'm trying to keep it simple (Never thought I'd say that!) with everything made by one manufacturer this time around. (No Chessex dice. No pads of paper with automaton character sheets from a local print shop. Just Lightning Source books.)

To summarize the issue, if these direct book backer levels are to be used, they need to have the shipping costs integrated with their up-front payment in order to avoid creating more than one subsystem, and even then I'd rather not do this unless there are people who would outright refuse to do it the way that keeps it cheaper for everyone and easier to manage.


...but how else are we going to fund our real life Tinker mecha-robo-gundam-deathmachines and get them shipped conveniently to our front step?

Oh right, that's the next kickstarter I suppose. One step at a time.


As I said (or was attempting to say, at any rate), set things up as it works best for you. Minimize your own headaches- the Backers will figure out the solution or option that works best for their own individual needs. It's all good :)


Smoo979 wrote:
I'm happy to pay $20 for the PDF. Although print options are not important to me, I have seen many complaints about them on various KS message boards. My guess is that you are best off charging 45-50 for the book hardback upfront, but that is just a wild uneducated guess. My advice would be to talk to recent 3PP publishers about how they think printing options impacted their KS. Rite publishing's Faces of the Tarnashed Souk KS had print options similar to what you originally proposed. Legendary Games Mythic Mania had softcover with hard cover as a stretch goal. One last piece of advice would be to get yourself invited to as many gaming podcasts as you can to try to get the word out.

Alright, how does one go about getting invited to podcasts? :)

Apologies - never was good at this whole social networking thing.


Interjection Games wrote:
Smoo979 wrote:
I'm happy to pay $20 for the PDF. Although print options are not important to me, I have seen many complaints about them on various KS message boards. My guess is that you are best off charging 45-50 for the book hardback upfront, but that is just a wild uneducated guess. My advice would be to talk to recent 3PP publishers about how they think printing options impacted their KS. Rite publishing's Faces of the Tarnashed Souk KS had print options similar to what you originally proposed. Legendary Games Mythic Mania had softcover with hard cover as a stretch goal. One last piece of advice would be to get yourself invited to as many gaming podcasts as you can to try to get the word out.

Alright, how does one go about getting invited to podcasts? :)

Apologies - never was good at this whole social networking thing.

I think Ryan Costello runs the Know Direction podcast. You could try him. He has an alias by that name on these boards I think. Lots of thinking, but not much knowing from this old wolf...


Go to the mythic mania KS homepage. They were on four or five different podcasts. Google those podcasts and find their contact info. Then introduce yourself and your company and attach a product sample or two and ask if you can come on the podcast to promote your KS.


Thanks, Smoo!


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Happy to help. Two more quick things. You should ask Paizo web staff well in advance to have the KS featured in the store blog. You could also ask Enzeitgeist to hold off on any reviews of your products until the Kickstarter begins in order to maximize the exposure his reviews bring and give him a chance to plug the KS.


Both really good ideas!


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Smoo979 wrote:
Happy to help. Two more quick things. You should ask Paizo web staff well in advance to have the KS featured in the store blog. You could also ask Enzeitgeist to hold off on any reviews of your products until the Kickstarter begins in order to maximize the exposure his reviews bring and give him a chance to plug the KS.

Endzeitgeist has a friend named Daniel who's obsessed with the class and has written a 12-page optimization guide for Ethermancer v.1.1. He's going to be releasing that on his website to plug me when the Kickstarter goes live! :)

The Paizo bit is a great idea, though!

I recently went out and got some people helping me with the main product. I've got Jason Linker of Flying Pincushion Games and Endzeitgeist himself on board - the very first thing they did was invent a new base class each that taps into ethermagic: the ethermagus and the etherslinger. The system is having some serious growing pains.

I'm struggling to build a whole subset of bestow etherspells that allow the system to do serious damage without resorting to blasts, putting a grouping of alteration and bestow etherspells that call for saving throws into the mix, and am about to start expanding genesis to include some fairly ridiculous area control tricks. If ethermagic comes out of this alive and well, it's going to look absolutely incredible!

Also, since I have to pay people before the first big stretch goal now, expect that $20 to go up.


You have probably already thought of this, but good places to advertise the KS would be d20PFSRD, and the Wayfinder and Pathways magazines. I know d20PFSRD does a good job integrating their advertising, as my adblock app never blocks their ads.


Huh. Didn't know about Wayfinder. Thanks! :)


can whe have a shadowcaster equivalent of tome of magic version pathfinder ?


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To be perfectly honest, I was considering slapping that on at $15,000 or so. Given it's one of the last big subsystems that need fixed from 3.5 that had yet to BE fixed, it'd be nice to plant my flag.

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