Sorry that didn't post last night for some reason and I just hit enter.
Why do you define 4 INT as IQ 50? JSRC wrote about how wolves with an INT of 2 could do some rather complex tactical work... Why shouldn't someone with double the INT be able to do something much more complex? The task that was described by OP doesn't sound that complex to me.
Low intelligence sounds more like the definition of being "slow": on equal skill ranks and bonuses (so equal effort on the topic), the character will have less chances to remember things they both studied. But you can still work in society, everybody knows "that dumb person" that got a college degree... Why should he not work fine in sosciety?Because "that dumb person" who got a college degree doesn't have an IQ of 50; he's probably got an IQ of 90 or so.
I'm not entirely convinced that you understand the full range of human intelligence. I'm sure that you don't actually know how disabling an IQ of 50 is.
There is an assumption that intelligence among wolves and intelligence among humanoids is analogous. I'd argue that is not true. Our quantative annalysis of intellect involves numerous processes tha are not applicable to wolves.
Wolves can perform complicated group tactics. They can communicate among one another using a relatively complex system. they could arguably "play a hunch" based on deductive thought.
They do not perform creative expression using interpretive dance, visual mediums like sculpture, painting etc. There is no known fictional storytelling among them. They do have a type of music perhaps.
Wolves can't use magic, either inherently or learned. They lack opposable thumbs and generally are not tool users. They have no written language and only the most limited form of culture, similar to a humanoid tribal group. There is no higher civilization among wolves unless you house rule wolves to be similar to Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time Wolves (who are smarter than many humans and in all likely...
this is like the 20th time i have to bring up teh fact that animals can;t do all that not because their int is 2, but because they're not awakened. a wolf with something giving it +12 int, is still just a wolf, and can't learn player classes.
non-awakened beings have an average intelligence of 1-2, awakened beings have an average int of 3d6. Animals behave like int 2 has mod 0 for them, or sometimes in the book it's modeled that they have 6+int skill points.
Stats should never affect roleplaying period - unless the roleplayer wants them to.
There are ALREADY mechanical penalties in place for low stats, people don't need to invent more.
Roleplaying low stats as average or better is like ignoring the fact that you're missing an arm and expecting to wield two handed weapons as normal. The problem with Pathfinder/3.x is that the skill modifiers can dwarf the modifiers for actual mental or physical ability. And there are players more than willing to cheese with those mechanics.
A person with a 4 int isn't Einstein. There are reasons that I put floor limits as to how low a character stat can go. This thread exemplifies them.
they aren't Einstein but they aren't some Idiot. Actual mental problems would have to be covered with a disease or insanity. Int has no effect on ones reasoning skills.
Int has a very specific lined out effect just like strength or missing an arm, but people seem to want it to effect more than what the rules say it effects.
Actually they are borderline idiots.
Now a 4INT/12WIS/19CHA is more like an idiot savant, but he's still an idiot.LazarX is right. People game this all the time. Frequently and deliberately.
The only downside to a super low INT is a loss of skill points and potentially a loss of spellcasting access to certain classes.
It's frequently posted on this forum how skills are superfluous game features in many games. So a super low INt is a minor penalty.
Like I said. If you're expecting a low int to be crippling to a warrior, I'll expect to see Wizards in wheel chairs from now on due to low str..Cutting your strength to the bone in my world? Expect a fine edge inspection of your inventory. (remember spell books, clothes, and coin have weight!) And you'd better run like hell when shadows are encountered.
...which is all perfectly acceptable as you aren't making up new rules out of the blue.
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Stats should never affect roleplaying period - unless the roleplayer wants them to.
There are ALREADY mechanical penalties in place for low stats, people don't need to invent more.
Roleplaying low stats as average or better is like ignoring the fact that you're missing an arm and expecting to wield two handed weapons as normal. The problem with Pathfinder/3.x is that the skill modifiers can dwarf the modifiers for actual mental or physical ability. And there are players more than willing to cheese with those mechanics.
A person with a 4 int isn't Einstein. There are reasons that I put floor limits as to how low a character stat can go. This thread exemplifies them.
they aren't Einstein but they aren't some Idiot. Actual mental problems would have to be covered with a disease or insanity. Int has no effect on ones reasoning skills.
Int has a very specific lined out effect just like strength or missing an arm, but people seem to want it to effect more than what the rules say it effects.
Actually they are borderline idiots.
Now a 4INT/12WIS/19CHA is more like an idiot savant, but he's still an idiot.LazarX is right. People game this all the time. Frequently and deliberately.
The only downside to a super low INT is a loss of skill points and potentially a loss of spellcasting access to certain classes.
It's frequently posted on this forum how skills are superfluous game features in many games. So a super low INt is a minor penalty.
if someone with 4 int is a borderline idiot, then someone with 4 dex must barely be able to control their movements, must be hard to walk... oh wait, they just get -3 to their reflex save, AC and to ranged attacks... it's a wonder someone with such a disability is able to grasp a sword at all...
A dexterity value of 4 is not far ahead of being incapable of movement.
That character isn't just clumsy.
I understand your point. There are built in penalties to a low stat value. That's it.
That's also why many of us don't allow 4s. Or 3s.
A dexterity value of 4 is not far ahead of being incapable of movement.
That character isn't just clumsy.
still they're perfectly able to swing a sword normally and with no malus. A task that if 4 is a horrible disability, shouldn't even be possible. Int 4 is not shown anywhere to mimic the results of someone becoming a moron, this want for people to RP it is based on metagamey knowledge. People want them to pay for their choice to use such a low score, when the game already has set limits for their character. people seem to get jealous or think that it isn't fair or some such, when it's probably nearly impossible to play a 18 int character under these standards.
character stats have no impact on personality or limits other than what they do mechanically, they are an key for an abstracted portion of the game, nothing more nothing less.
People want the stats to follow their world view of the stats when in reality the stats aren't actual physical things about the character, they're simply stuff to give characters an innate bonus or malus to things.
I'll bring up more silly low stats, I'd be amazed at the guy with 4 con not having to roll for not dying everyday, as he most certainly has some brittle bone disease... oh wait, HP is an abstraction of someones luck or ability to withstand fatigue, not someones actual ability to shrug off hits...
On awakened animals.
Awakened makes an animal human-like in it's intellect. It gives it access to spoken language (even though it doest expressly state that it restructures vocal chords). It also basically changes the type, though not all benefits of a type are changed. It also makes the subject friendly.
This has nothing to do with animal intelligence. An Awakened animal is a magical beast. I brought up my above post in the response that every thread ever covering intelligence values has the Wolves (int 2) using Trip in combat argument.
My point of view is that animal intelligence values aren't relevant to human intelligence values. Stat values are an abstraction, not a hard scale of measurement. Otherwise an immortal Aboleth would be sitting on an Int value so high it should be a 3 digit number, compared to a human.
If we use Gygax's IQ=INTX10 ratio it's even worse since no one I know of has ever gotten a wolf or an octopus to take an IQ test.
Like I said. If you're expecting a low int to be crippling to a warrior, I'll expect to see Wizards in wheel chairs from now on due to low str..Cutting your strength to the bone in my world? Expect a fine edge inspection of your inventory. (remember spell books, clothes, and coin have weight!) And you'd better run like hell when shadows are encountered.
Which is within the rules.
What is not in the rules? "You need to make an int check to have that idea because your int is really low"
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A dexterity value of 4 is not far ahead of being incapable of movement.
That character isn't just clumsy.
I might have agreed--if the ability score value in question was 1.
I feel like listing some of the ways you can role play high stats in an usual manner.
high Str: your an extreme perfectionist, you strike with an innate higher skill because your mind demands it, you also always adjust your inventory to be extremely well weight managed.
high dex: luck, your just happen to be in the right place at the right time to not be hit.
high con: also luck, when the GM secretly rolled for disease he character didn't actually fight off the disease he managed to avoid it, attacks always seem to hit him in the right way so they don't quite feel as bad as they could have gone, poisoned weapons tend to have a knack for failing to actually get the poison into his blood stream.
high int: your actually slightly possessed by a demon, the demon never actually gets control but you have access to a lot of his knowledge, this has made you an excellent Wizard.
high Wis: luck, the enemy wizards always seem to get distracted and fail their dominate person spell at the critical moment. you just happen to look in the right direction when enemies are present, sometimes people even accidentally give themselves away easily when they try to lie to you. also for a divine caster, just say you have god on your side, and instead of luck gods just throwing you constant favors.
high Chr: you are the most rude person on earth, so rude and down bearing on everyone and everything that people are given the impression it's simply best to agree with you and people avoid difficult discussions with you making you harder to convince, your will is so demanding willing the world to change before you comes naturally, and people find it hard to resist.
On awakened animals.
Awakened makes an animal human-like in it's intellect. It gives it access to spoken language (even though it doest expressly state that it restructures vocal chords). It also basically changes the type, though not all benefits of a type are changed. It also makes the subject friendly.This has nothing to do with animal intelligence. An Awakened animal is a magical beast. I brought up my above post in the response that every thread ever covering intelligence values has the Wolves (int 2) using Trip in combat argument.
My point of view is that animal intelligence values aren't relevant to human intelligence values. Stat values are an abstraction, not a hard scale of measurement. Otherwise an immortal Aboleth would be sitting on an Int value so high it should be a 3 digit number, compared to a human.
If we use Gygax's IQ=INTX10 ratio it's even worse since no one I know of has ever gotten a wolf or an octopus to take an IQ test.
actually it's deeper than that, it basically has to do with getting your animal companion(or any pet really) to a high int, does that mean you no longer need to teach it tricks since it can understand you and you're language? answer: no. do you no longer need to use handle animal on it? no.
only when something has awakened does it behave like an actual person with an intelligence and forethought and drive.
I feel like listing some of the ways you can role play high stats in an usual manner.
high Str: your an extreme perfectionist, you strike with an innate higher skill because your mind demands it, you also always adjust your inventory to be extremely well weight managed.
high dex: luck, your just happen to be in the right place at the right time to not be hit.
high con: also luck, when the GM secretly rolled for disease he character didn't actually fight off the disease he managed to avoid it, attacks always seem to hit him in the right way so they don't quite feel as bad as they could have gone, poisoned weapons tend to have a knack for failing to actually get the poison into his blood stream.
high int: your actually slightly possessed by a demon, the demon never actually gets control but you have access to a lot of his knowledge, this has made you an excellent Wizard.
high Wis: luck, the enemy wizards always seem to get distracted and fail their dominate person spell at the critical moment. you just happen to look in the right direction when enemies are present, sometimes people even accidentally give themselves away easily when they try to lie to you. also for a divine caster, just say you have god on your side, and instead of luck gods just throwing you constant favors.
high Chr: you are the most rude person on earth, so rude and down bearing on everyone and everything that people are given the impression it's simply best to agree with you and people avoid difficult discussions with you making you harder to convince, your will is so demanding willing the world to change before you comes naturally, and people find it hard to resist.
Since charisma is "force of personality" and is possessed by hags and nymphs alike, I fail to see how your charisma example is all that unusual?
people constantly say that low charisma must make your rude or brutish, ignoring the fact that low charisma makes your easier to diplomacy.
A dexterity value of 4 is not far ahead of being incapable of movement.
That character isn't just clumsy.still they're perfectly able to swing a sword normally and with no malus. A task that if 4 is a horrible disability, shouldn't even be possible. Int 4 is not shown anywhere to mimic the results of someone becoming a moron, this want for people to RP it is based on metagamey knowledge. People want them to pay for their choice to use such a low score, when the game already has set limits for their character. people seem to get jealous or think that it isn't fair or some such, when it's probably nearly impossible to play a 18 int character under these standards.
character stats have no impact on personality or limits other than what they do mechanically, they are an key for an abstracted portion of the game, nothing more nothing less.
People want the stats to follow their world view of the stats when in reality the stats aren't actual physical things about the character, they're simply stuff to give characters an innate bonus or malus to things.
I'll bring up more silly low stats, I'd be amazed at the guy with 4 con not having to roll for not dying everyday, as he most certainly has some brittle bone disease... oh wait, HP is an abstraction of someones luck or ability to withstand fatigue, not someones actual ability to shrug off hits...
I've never seen a character with a 4 CON score survive more than 3 game sessions.
I qctually agree with your point on bonus/penalty regarding stats. BUT that needs to be agreed on by everyone involved ahead of time. Otherwise you get what the OP has. An argument.
Saying that "No on should force RP decisions on you", is too cut and dried. This has been going on for as long as people have played D&D. Virtually all old school players fall into the RP the stats category. They actually come from games where the bonuses and penalties were even weaker than they are now. Once it was just a +\- 1-3 on like one thing.
If anything I'd like to see future versions of the game eliminate stats all together. They aren't necessary for RP, and really just limit options for some concepts. Alignment has it's place but stats are unnecessary beyond pumping up one facet of combat utility.
I think of stats more like the one thing you have outside your class and that carries over into other classes.
A low force of personality is easier overrun by a strong force of personality. Naturally.
But a five charisma probably isn't going to be charming, debonaire, suave and the like regardless of if they go through the mechanical motions. They just wouldn't have that 'it' factor.
sure he can be though, he just has some critical self image flaw maybe, or people can easily see him for how shallow he is.
moving off onto another topic, how do people handle an int 4 character with 20 ranks in knowledge(arcana) though?
How does a low CHA make Diplomacy checks easier?
How does a low CHA make Diplomacy checks easier?
DC is based on {number based on level of friendship/hostility}+charisma modifier
if i had to perfectly match up charisma with personality, low charisma would be a shy person.
A low CHA could certainly be a shy person or a person with Social Anxiety Disorder or a person with virtually no confidence in anything.
I still don't get the lack of bonus making the check easier. Unless you assume those point buy points netted you additional skill points for social skills. Which is metagamey.
If they are easily seeing through it then he isn't being that charming, suave, debonaire etcetera. He just thinks he is. He might be going through the mechanical motions, but the there is not there. There is no sizzle to the steak. No pepper to the corn. No whistle to the dog. No Miao to the cat. No dodge to the ball ...A low force of personality is easier overrun by a strong force of personality. Naturally.
But a five charisma probably isn't going to be charming, debonaire, suave and the like regardless of if they go through the mechanical motions. They just wouldn't have that 'it' factor.
sure he can be though, he just has some critical self image flaw maybe, or people can easily see him for how shallow he is.
moving off onto another topic, how do people handle an int 4 character with 20 ranks in knowledge(arcana) though?
so? beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
and zagnabbit, I think you have it confused, the person WITH low charisma is himself easier to use diplomacy on.
on and someone with social anxiety disorder i think would be harder to make your friend, so they would probably actually have an above average charisma and simply not like USING diplomacy or otherwise to make people interact with him. Mechanically any time he would roll he would opt for an automatic failure, which you can do in the rules.
Ah. Ok gotcha. This discussion moved so fast I failed my will save.
That is merely a result of game consideration, Take 10 is in the game purely so that players can avoid failing skill checks that they'd make unless they roll very poorly.
That's sort of right. it's in the game so that people can avoid failing skill checks that should be routinely passed.
A person with an INT 4 has only a 30% change to roll a 10 compared to a person with an INT of 10 who has a 50% chance to roll a 10 - which is not all that different.
But a person with an intelligence of 10 doesn't need to roll at all, because the person of intelligence 10 is smart enough to be assumed to have access to all of "common knowledge," something that a person of intelligence 4 is not.
One of the known weaknesses of a d20 based system is that there is too high a chance of failure on routine tasks. This is addressed by by the take 10 mechanic, which says that there is NO chance of failure on routine tasks, unless you are so poor at the relevant task that it's no longer routine.
So, basically, knowing the name of the local priest is routine for a person of normal intelligence. But for the village idiot, that's not at all routine.
I've never seen a character with a 4 CON score survive more than 3 game sessions.
I've played a sorcerer that survived from 1st-level to level 10 on less than 30 hit points. In the end, she was lost not due to an enemy attack, but due to a betrayal of her PC allies (they feared the low-constitution crone would soon succeed at becoming a lich).
moving off onto another topic, how do people handle an int 4 character with 20 ranks in knowledge(arcana) though?
Rain man or the equivalent. The idiot savant is a well-recognized phenomenon.
no where does it say common knowledge is a thing, there's no entry under knowledge for a "common knowledge" DC...
Rain man or the equivalent. The idiot savant is a well-recognized phenomenon.
moving off onto another topic, how do people handle an int 4 character with 20 ranks in knowledge(arcana) though?
but he's not a Savant it took him a long time to TRAIN up to that point, a savant is someone who has an ungodly innate bonus to something. like an overly optimized character into perform(string).
I've never seen a character with a 4 CON score survive more than 3 game sessions.I've played a sorcerer that survived from 1st-level to level 10 on less than 30 hit points. In the end, she was lost not due to an enemy attack, but due to a betrayal of her PC allies (they feared the low-constitution crone would soon succeed at becoming a lich).
It's not the HP, it's the fort save penalty.
But we kill PCs as a matter of course. So that's one place here I know my group differs from the average RPG table.
no where does it say common knowledge is a thing, there's no entry under knowledge for a "common knowledge" DC...
Not using those words. But a DC 10 is an "really easy" question that can be answered by anyone, even without training. An example of such a DC is "Know recent or historically significant event."
Fred: "Hey, Lonny, when's market day in this town?"
Lonny (int 4): "Well, it was just recently...." (Rolls a 10, fails to make DC 10) "I dunno. Seems like it happens purty regular, though."
Another example: "Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations" (DC 10)
Fred: "Hey, Lonny, what's the king's name?"
Fred: "Hey, Lonny, where do people go for a beer in this village?"
A third: "Identify a common plant or animal." (DC 10)
Fred: "Hey, Lonny, what are those animals there that the shepherd is shearing?"
Fred: "Hey, Lonny, those plants over in the cornfield,... what are they?"
Et cetera: "Recognize a common deity's symbol or clergy." (DC 10)
Fred: "Hey, Lonny, those two crossed sticks on the top of the church over there. What are they there for?"
So a character with intelligence 4, under strict rules as written, will, more likely than not:
* not know what day the local market is on
* not know the name of the local ruler
* not know the name or how to find the local pub
* not be able to name a common farm animal
* not be able to recognize the major crop in the village he lives in
* not be able to identify the symbol of the religion he practices
or, in fact, the answer to any other "very easy" question.
but he's not a Savant it took him a long time to TRAIN up to that point, a savant is someone who has an ungodly innate bonus to something. like an overly optimized character into perform(string).Rain man or the equivalent. The idiot savant is a well-recognized phenomenon.
moving off onto another topic, how do people handle an int 4 character with 20 ranks in knowledge(arcana) though?
Do you think that rain man was born knowing the things he knew?
*Tries to stuff key in dead prison guard*
DOOR NOT WURKING
those still seem a step above "what is a fork?" or "where is my house?"
also, all of those are assuming the person is a "foreigner".
while not explicitly written, I mentioned before the DC 20 knowledge(geometry) to know the closest town... in other words LITERALLY NO ONE on average can name what the closest town is in the average city.
for extra semantics: the closest town... is the one you're currently in...
also, all of those are assuming the person is a "foreigner".
They do not. Nowhere in the skill description does the word "foreigner" appear.
Furthermore, there is no category easier than "very easy" (DC 10). So if you're going by strict rules as written, "what is a fork" is also a "very easy" question to which you have a 30% chance of knowing the answer.
They do not. Nowhere in the skill description does the word "foreigner" appear.
also, all of those are assuming the person is a "foreigner".
k then like I said, since the average person doesn't have knowledge(geometry), no one in a town can name the closest town, or know it's direction.
DC 15 "Recognize current plane" has no idea he's on material plane since he did not train a skill point in planes.
the rules assume you just know things, if they make sense for you to know them.
if someone with 4 int is a borderline idiot, then someone with 4 dex must barely be able to control their movements, must be hard to walk... oh wait, they just get -3 to their reflex save, AC and to ranged attacks... it's a wonder someone with such a disability is able to grasp a sword at all...
Actually, as has been mentioned several times, in Pathfinder an Int of 4 makes you The Villiage Idiot.
I'd say "Where's the nearest town" is just a DC 15 Knowledge (geography) check. Anybody who knows their maps will know instantly, while the average guy wouldn't really know.
This changes if there aren't many towns, though—if there's no other towns for miles and miles, damn right you're gonna know the nearest place you can ship your wares/flee to if the damn bulette shows up again.
I'd say "Where's the nearest town" is just a DC 15 Knowledge (geography) check. Anybody who knows their maps will know instantly, while the average guy wouldn't really know.
This changes if there aren't many towns, though—if there's no other towns for miles and miles, damn right you're gonna know the nearest place you can ship your wares/flee to if the damn bulette shows up again.
but that's what i am saying the game assumes you're not from teh area to know of the nearest community, that you know because of your deep knowledge of geography.
If you visit a town regularly, you know where it is, you don't need a DC knowledge check for it.
This changes if there aren't many towns, though—if there's no other towns for miles and miles, damn right you're gonna know the nearest place you can ship your wares/flee to if the damn bulette shows up again.
The other side of that, though, is that if there aren't many towns, you might know the direction to the nearest town, but not where it is, because you've not been there yourself for a long time and all you really know is that if you follow the Banbury Road for a while, you will find yourself in Banbury eventually.
That's fairly typical of isolated rural communities in an age before good travel and communications, actually.