Ranged Enemies in Higher Tier Games


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5/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
I think PFS should start having some summoner NPC's.
No thank you.
There is a new 7-11 with one.

I've heard. I can't wait to bite his face.

Dark Archive 3/5

Imbicatus wrote:

Snooze witch can only hit one character per round one time per scenario. If you make your save nothing happens, if you fail, another person can spend a standard to wake you. Or if they can't get to you, that can even hit you with an alchemist fire for one point of damage that will auto-wake you.

It's not an immediate CDG like it is for most npcs.

I'd much rather have a slumber witch as an opponent than most of the fights I've been in.

Split Hex + Wand of Slumber (familiar). 1 round half (or more) of the party is knocked out.

I only mention it because I've watched players do exactly this.

I so wish the BBEG were allowed to simply use one of the many ways of inflicting bleed damage on themselves. 1 point of damage a round for freedom from most mind control tactics these murderhobos throw out.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
I think PFS should start having some summoner NPC's.
No thank you.

A summoner, a magus and a gunslinger all at once :)

Silver Crusade 2/5

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Snooze witch can only hit one character per round one time per scenario. If you make your save nothing happens, if you fail, another person can spend a standard to wake you. Or if they can't get to you, that can even hit you with an alchemist fire for one point of damage that will auto-wake you.

It's not an immediate CDG like it is for most npcs.

I'd much rather have a slumber witch as an opponent than most of the fights I've been in.

Split Hex + Wand of Slumber (familiar). 1 round half (or more) of the party is knocked out.

I only mention it because I've watched players do exactly this.

I so wish the BBEG were allowed to simply use one of the many ways of inflicting bleed damage on themselves. 1 point of damage a round for freedom from most mind control tactics these murderhobos throw out.

Hah! We used to put low level damage over time spells on ourselves in Everquest to prevent such effects :)

Dark Archive 4/5

Actually a Season 2 PFS scenario has a Party level +2 Witch with Slumber hex and 6 Minions (all High ST melee Brutes who could be ordered to CDG the victims if the GM wanted to none of them would care about provoking either).

So it does exist in PFS scenarios just rare that GM's would use that tactic as while yes it does remove a single PC from the encounter (and technically the remainder of the scenario), you have other options that can potentially effect multiple PCs and in general give you other opportunities.

There are several tactics that are available to scenario writers that they wont in general do just because it would remove any fun of the encounter. Sure the encounter would be CR legal but it would not be appropriate.

3/5

Caderyn wrote:

Actually a Season 2 PFS scenario has a Party level +2 Witch with Slumber hex and 6 Minions (all High ST melee Brutes who could be ordered to CDG the victims if the GM wanted to none of them would care about provoking either).

So it does exist in PFS scenarios just rare that GM's would use that tactic as while yes it does remove a single PC from the encounter (and technically the remainder of the scenario), you have other options that can potentially effect multiple PCs and in general give you other opportunities.

There are several tactics that are available to scenario writers that they wont in general do just because it would remove any fun of the encounter. Sure the encounter would be CR legal but it would not be appropriate.

She does not get the sleep hex until the higher levels.

Silver Crusade 2/5

"There are several tactics that are available to scenario writers that they wont in general do just because it would remove any fun of the encounter."

Like harpies?

Seriously, I just want NPCs with classes taken as seriously as monsters. Which, right now, they kinda can't be.

3/5

someone wrote:

"There are several tactics that are available to scenario writers that they wont in general do just because it would remove any fun of the encounter."

I disagree with this. I want to see a variety of abilities. This would include mind control stuffs.

What makes things not fun for me is when the DM does not know how to run the awesome or uncommon abilities.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
someone wrote:

"There are several tactics that are available to scenario writers that they wont in general do just because it would remove any fun of the encounter."

I disagree with this. I want to see a variety of abilities. This would include mind control stuffs.

What makes things not fun for me is when the DM does not know how to run the awesome or uncommon abilities.

Seconded. PFS NPCs lack variety compared to monstrous NPCs. And usually hitting power and danger factor.

5/5

The more options we include for GMs, the more table variance we see. This increases the frequency of poor experiences.

Additionally, we shy away from including non-PRD content which puts NPCs at a disadvantage.

Silver Crusade 2/5

There can still be printed tactics. Just a variance of abilities. There NEEDS to be NPC gunslingers, as many Aspis flunkies that have been eaten my Fluffy the Super Cat with a 35 armor class.


I would also mention I have seen several instances of the GM either not knowing how to use correctly use some of the more dangerous possibilities (usually due to lack of prep), unwilling to because he was afraid he would kill the PC's, or sticking to the typed strategy even though it no longer made much sense due to the PC tactics.

I would agree that the NPC's are not usually quite as dangerous as the monsters, but they are often sufficiently dangerous though sometimes not played that way.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
David Bowles wrote:
There can still be printed tactics. Just a variance of abilities. There NEEDS to be NPC gunslingers, as many Aspis flunkies that have been eaten my Fluffy the Super Cat with a 35 armor class.

Why do we need NPC gunslingers to deal with your Fluffy the Super Cat with 35 AC? Why do players feel the need to build Fluffy like that and then complain that NPCs aren't challenging enough? Build Fluffy w/o optimization and NPCs will be more challenging if that's what people truly want.

Silver Crusade 2/5

It's a chicken in the egg problem, but the gunslinger has a pretty unique mechanic that can challenge a lot of overpowered builds without causing TPKs. Also, it's cool to get shot and survive.

Players build those builds for many reasons. Oneupmanship, hedges against bad GMs, hedges against difficult scenarios, or simply because they can.

It's not just Fluffy, its tower shield specialists, some eidolons, and any other PC breaking scenarios with raw armor class.

Again, how many times will the Pathfinders' supposed archnemesis lose to a single pet before there is some kind of a response in their meta strategy?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Kyle Baird wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Now that you mention it, I've never seen an enemy snooze witch.
And if you did, you'd be able to read about how much players would hate that here on the messageboards and in the reviews.

This is also why we haven't seen any NPC gunslingers, IMO.

Silver Crusade 2/5

So the inverse corollary of this is that people enjoy ineffective NPCs? Unlike will save attacks, gunslingers can't prevent PCs from participating . They can just hit PCs in a proficient manner. (Unless you are a crazy monk build or something). I can't see any rational reason to call foul on that.

5/5

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
David Bowles wrote:

It's a chicken in the egg problem, but the gunslinger has a pretty unique mechanic that can challenge a lot of overpowered builds without causing TPKs. Also, it's cool to get shot and survive.

Players build those builds for many reasons. Oneupmanship, hedges against bad GMs, hedges against difficult scenarios, or simply because they can.

It's not just Fluffy, its tower shield specialists, some eidolons, and any other PC breaking scenarios with raw armor class.

Again, how many times will the Pathfinders' supposed archnemesis lose to a single pet before there is some kind of a response in their meta strategy?

You're being a bit circular. It's not people enjoy ineffective NPCs, they're only ineffective because they don't survive optimized PCs and usually don't have 5 other companions with PC wealth to cover their weaknesses.

The meta strategy for NPCs is political. They lobby the deities to remove easily abused options.

Pathfinder will remain targeted at average purchaser of Paizo's products. For PFS, that means more CRB focused low level type of enemies with splashes of new content to expose players and hopefully get them to buy in. At higher levels, the challenge will increase slightly as the assumption is that players become more experienced, have access to more options and thus more be competent in their role. Never will you encounter a group of 6 NPCs of equal level to the PCs and built with every splat book and PC wealth (although this would be interesting...).

If you want NPCs to feel more like a challenge, build a PC that's more toward the average and not out in the 5th or 6th sigma.

5/5

6 NPCs with PC wealth of level 5 would be a CR 10 encounter. That would be considered an epic encounter (CR +3) for a group at APL 7 which would be six 6th level PCs. And they'd still be built with the heroic array, so their primary ability scores would be considerably worse.

3/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
If you want NPCs to feel more like a challenge, build a PC that's more toward the average and not out in the 5th or 6th sigma.

I would rather have more hard modes, and bone keeps.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
6 NPCs with PC wealth of level 5 would be a CR 10 encounter. That would be considered an epic encounter (CR +3) for a group at APL 7 which would be six 6th level PCs. And they'd still be built with the heroic array, so their primary ability scores would be considerably worse.

I dispute the reality of the epicness of that encounter, but I know that the CR system is not changing any time soon. I maintain that I'll take on those NPCs any day of the week over a CR 10 monster from a risk management position. Especially when there is a solid chance that none of those NPCs can touch Fluffy the Wondercat, but the monster can.

Crippling the NPCs stats and wealth is just that, crippling. Monsters are not under such limitations.

However, even with such numerical crippling, I feel clever use of feat selection, equipment, and class could still make NPCs competitive with monster encounters.

" Never will you encounter a group of 6 NPCs of equal level to the PCs and built with every splat book and PC wealth "

Maybe not six, but three perhaps would be a nice change up. With splat book assistance and non-CRB classes. The single lone caster NPC who gets tetori face-grabbed on round 1 is mega-lame.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd say a player that routinely feels a need to be the center of attention by face-grabbing spell casting npcs, thus preventing anyone else from contributing is also a tad lame.

Same for casters that use save or suck during the first round of a bbeg fight.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

David Bowles wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
6 NPCs with PC wealth of level 5 would be a CR 10 encounter. That would be considered an epic encounter (CR +3) for a group at APL 7 which would be six 6th level PCs. And they'd still be built with the heroic array, so their primary ability scores would be considerably worse.

I dispute the reality of the epicness of that encounter, but I know that the CR system is not changing any time soon. I maintain that I'll take on those NPCs any day of the week over a CR 10 monster from a risk management position. Especially when there is a solid chance that none of those NPCs can touch Fluffy the Wondercat, but the monster can.

Except that 6 PC built NPCs run competently is an encounter that (by definition) has a 50% TPK, and a near 100% chance of 2 PCs at least dieing.

It costs 20 PP to come back from the dead, and there is an intended target of 1.5 PP rewarded per scenario. Thus it takes 14 games to earn enough PP to rez, so each PC should only die approximately once per 5 levels. That means that a CR appropriate collection of encounters is a collection were any given PC has a 7% chance of dieing. So that probably works out to 1 boss battle and one hard battle, each of which have a 5% chance of killing each character.

Clearly, on average, encounters should only outright kill a PC on (effectively) a critical, so you are looking for creatures that can hurt some, but not necessarily all of the PCs, and that if they get a lucky shot, will kill one PC.

Now you have to make them even weaker than that, because you have to leave room in the mix for Waking Rune and other similar adventures that just plain kill PCs. Also you have to leave a little room for the factor that once one PC goes down, there tends to be a death spiral effect.

So Outside Waking Rune or Bone Keep, PCs are *never* fighting a fair fight, and will always have the upper hand, because the mechanical economics of the continuing campaign demand it.

Also, while Will save "lock out" powers are boring for the characters, what you have to remember is that they are substituting for "one shot kill" powers. (which are frankly also boring, cause you still don't get to take part in the fight, but you are also *dead*.) Lock out powers are a good way to preserve the win / loss ratio and the fear of failure without unduly increasing the PC death rate.

3/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:

I'd say a player that routinely feels a need to be the center of attention by face-grabbing spell casting npcs, thus preventing anyone else from contributing is also a tad lame.

Same for casters that use save or suck during the first round of a bbeg fight.

Damage dealers can do the same thing. Everytime I see a spirited charge hit the creature dies. I have seen bows drop bad guys before the bad guys get turns.

My murder hobo that can hit like a mac truck, I dumped wisdom so I spend the first rounds waiting for directions usually before I drop something.

In my experience with veteran players in PFS is that they race each other to kill the next thing.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:

I'd say a player that routinely feels a need to be the center of attention by face-grabbing spell casting npcs, thus preventing anyone else from contributing is also a tad lame.

Same for casters that use save or suck during the first round of a bbeg fight.

It could be anything, really. Single NPC fights are usually anti-climactic because of action efficiency problems.

A BBEG should have resources and schemes to shrug off save or suck most of the time. That's my philosophy on that one.

Silver Crusade 2/5

"Except that 6 PC built NPCs run competently is an encounter that (by definition) has a 50% TPK, and a near 100% chance of 2 PCs at least dieing."

Which in reality is never going to come close to being true. Those six 5 level NPCs with fewer stats, fewer money, and relatively random feat selection are going to be massacred by the PCs. Given how NPCs are built in PFS, I'd be flabbergasted in this set up gave even a 10% TPK rate.

"Also, while Will save "lock out" powers are boring for the characters, what you have to remember is that they are substituting for "one shot kill" powers.""

I don't think this is true at low-mid levels. They are just something in the arsenal of monsters that class-based NPCs can't do as well.

There's many, many interesting classes and build options for said classes. NPCs should be using them. Imagine the sweet revenge of an NPC tetori monk or two.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

FLite wrote:
each PC should only die approximately once per scenario

Fixed that for you.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
face-grabbing spell casting npcs

:(

5/5

David Bowles wrote:
Which in reality is never going to come close to being true.

In your opinion. I TPKO'd a party of 6 with the sea-elves from Murder on the Throaty Mermaid. I think they're like CR 1/3 or 1/2 each. These were mostly experienced players, but I used the battlefield and some combat maneuvers to grab the upper hand. Swiftbrook should remember the encounter... :-)

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Except that a 10 %TPK rate, once per scenario, would mean that every scenario would have to net 2 PP on average, probably 3 or 4 (since a 10% TPK rate implies an additional 10-20% chance that one or more PCs will die even if the PCs win.)

Otherwise very few characters would survive to get to level 11.

"lock out powers" for class based NPCs at low to mid levels....

Color Spray
Ear piercing shriek
Sleep
Cause Fear
Hold Person
Charm Person.
Mass Damage*
Tanglefoot bags
Narrow, Twisting Corridors.
Doorways.

All of those just from the core book.

*Mass damage
At 1st and second level a hit that takes you from full health to -1 on average will probably not kill you outright if it rolls it's max. So it can be used as a sort of "lockout without killing" power. Though obviously if you are at 1 when it hits, you are in trouble. Of course at 7th level, an attack that takes you from full to 1/3 hit points on average is going to one shot kill you if it does max damage.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Care Baird wrote:
FLite wrote:
each PC should only die approximately once per scenario
Fixed that for you.

I thought that was why they only let you write the hard mode stuff. :)

The Exchange 2/5

Wait, people have enough prestige to pay for a raise dead? I only ever have enough prestige to pay for my restorations. :(

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

FLite wrote:

"lock out powers" for class based NPCs at low to mid levels....

Narrow, Twisting Corridors.
Doorways.

I made the mistake of GMing for a table of 7 PCs + 2 pets through most of The Devil We Know.

By Part 2, the PCs were taking turns going in to fights while the other half of the party sat outside and played cards.

By Part 3, PCs were literaly, and I do mean literally, *climbing the walls* to get to the NPCs they were fighting.

By Part 4, we had picked up an additional player, an additional PC and were able to split the table. And everyone was much happier.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Which in reality is never going to come close to being true.
In your opinion. I TPKO'd a party of 6 with the sea-elves from Murder on the Throaty Mermaid. I think they're like CR 1/3 or 1/2 each. These were mostly experienced players, but I used the battlefield and some combat maneuvers to grab the upper hand. Swiftbrook should remember the encounter... :-)

I'm talking about the TPK rate, not anecdotal "This one time, I did X". For every time you do something like that, 50 NPC groups are crushed without a sweat broken.

Also, I don't think the rate for the listed encounter would be anything close to 10% to address Flite's concerns. Again, the real dangers seem to be almost exclusively monsters.

Maybe the PC optimization rate in my play area is higher than I realize; most PFS NPCs have a hard time hitting and doing anything, much less landing *combat maneuvers*.

Grand Lodge 4/5

FLite wrote:
It costs 20 PP to come back from the dead, and there is an intended target of 1.5 PP rewarded per scenario.

Where are you getting 20 PP from? If you're including Restorations, it should be 24 PP, otherwise it's 16. Unless they need a Resurrection, which is 32 (or 36 with Restorations). Of course, all those numbers can be 5 higher if they need a Body Recovery too.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
David Bowles wrote:
Which in reality is never going to come close to being true.
In your opinion. I TPKO'd a party of 6 with the sea-elves from Murder on the Throaty Mermaid. I think they're like CR 1/3 or 1/2 each. These were mostly experienced players, but I used the battlefield and some combat maneuvers to grab the upper hand. Swiftbrook should remember the encounter... :-)

"Why do players feel the need to build Fluffy like that "

Also, you might have answered your own question. At least for your play group.

5/5

FWIW, I don't think I've had 50 NPC groups crushed yet.

5/5

FLite wrote:
Care Baird wrote:
FLite wrote:
each PC should only die approximately once per scenario
Fixed that for you.
I thought that was why they only let you write the hard mode stuff. :)

Like The Confirmation?

Shadow Lodge

It's all about escalation (linkified)

We start using pouncing animal companions, they start using tetori monks. We start using slumber witches, they start playing elves...

5/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
FLite wrote:
It costs 20 PP to come back from the dead, and there is an intended target of 1.5 PP rewarded per scenario.
Where are you getting 20 PP from? If you're including Restorations, it should be 24 PP, otherwise it's 16. Unless they need a Resurrection, which is 32 (or 36 with Restorations). Of course, all those numbers can be 5 higher if they need a Body Recovery too.

This is why you need a personal physician boon.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Kyle Baird wrote:
FLite wrote:
Care Baird wrote:
FLite wrote:
each PC should only die approximately once per scenario
Fixed that for you.
I thought that was why they only let you write the hard mode stuff. :)
Like The Confirmation?

I am working on the assumption that you have MPD.

You write the stuff like the Confirmation.
Care Baird writes the stuff like The Sealed Gate.

It's the only thing that makes sense. :)

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Jeff Merola wrote:
FLite wrote:
It costs 20 PP to come back from the dead, and there is an intended target of 1.5 PP rewarded per scenario.
Where are you getting 20 PP from? If you're including Restorations, it should be 24 PP, otherwise it's 16. Unless they need a Resurrection, which is 32 (or 36 with Restorations). Of course, all those numbers can be 5 higher if they need a Body Recovery too.

For some reason I keep thinking Restoration costs 2 PP. I always get unpleasantly surprised when I have to look it up.

5/5 *****

FLite wrote:

I am working on the assumption that you have MPD.

You right the stuff like the Confirmation.
Care Baird writes the stuff like The Sealed Gate.

It's the only thing that makes sense. :)

Confirmation nearly TPK'd our group in the first encounter. If we hadn't had two people who had a single session under their belt and could therefore afford certain crucial gear it would have been the end of all of us. If we had all been new level 1's we would have been utterly doomed.

To be fair we were largely a group of planetouched looking to be grandfathered in so maybe that would have been a good thing. We did just manage to survive and no-one even died. We dubbed the caves incompetent necromancer central on the basis that one of them appeared to have been eaten by his own minions.

5/5

FLite wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
FLite wrote:
Care Baird wrote:
FLite wrote:
each PC should only die approximately once per scenario
Fixed that for you.
I thought that was why they only let you write the hard mode stuff. :)
Like The Confirmation?

I am working on the assumption that you have MPD.

You write the stuff like the Confirmation.
Care Baird writes the stuff like The Sealed Gate.

It's the only thing that makes sense. :)

Why does it have to be a disorder?

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
andreww wrote:
FLite wrote:

I am working on the assumption that you have MPD.

You right the stuff like the Confirmation.
Care Baird writes the stuff like The Sealed Gate.

It's the only thing that makes sense. :)

Confirmation nearly TPK'd our group in the first encounter. If we hadn't had two people who had a single session under their belt and could therefore afford certain crucial gear it would have been the end of all of us. If we had all been new level 1's we would have been utterly doomed.

To be fair we were largely a group of planetouched looking to be grandfathered in so maybe that would have been a good thing. We did just manage to survive and no-one even died. We dubbed the caves incompetent necromancer central on the basis that one of them appeared to have been eaten by his own minions.

I should have included Outsider (native) bane ammunition in there.

Shadow Lodge

Just how far will a hungry swarm chase someone?

GM: Nope, sorry that blue stream there on the map is all dried up. I promise that's what it says in the scenario.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
FWIW, I don't think I've had 50 NPC groups crushed yet.

Across all possible GMs was what I was thinking of. Not 50:1 on individual GMs. I haven't even killed a PC yet, so by definition, all my NPC groups have been crushed.

5/5 *****

Kyle Baird wrote:
I should have included Outsider (native) bane ammunition in there.

Confirmation:
I think two spider swarms with excessively high touch AC's was more than enough challenge for a group composed of entirely level 1 characters. Given they have a touch AC of 17 and most of us were throwing at +2 if we were lucky I am not sure how a group of completely fresh characters was expected to survive.
Scarab Sages 4/5 5/5

Garble Facechomper wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
face-grabbing spell casting npcs
:(

Rukk finds negotiating more fun that fighting. Fighting too easy...

Silver Crusade 5/5

David Bowles wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
FWIW, I don't think I've had 50 NPC groups crushed yet.
Across all possible GMs was what I was thinking of. Not 50:1 on individual GMs. I haven't even killed a PC yet, so by definition, all my NPC groups have been crushed.

It sounds to me like you're saying that if you don't kill a PC then the NPC's get crushed, which is odd. I've had groups that have had a PC die while the rest of the PC's just faceroll the enounter without breaking a sweat. I've GM'd encounters where no PC's have died, but the fight put them to their limits. And yes, I've had an overoptimized PC ruin entire scenarios so they cold show off how broken their build is.

This past Saturday I had a PC die at my table (from a henchman archer, no less), while not having any of the of the other PC's feel threatened. After the badguy exploded due to a shocking grasp, his four henchmen followed tactics and fough on until X hp. I had the four archers split up and each worry about a different PC, although one PC did aggro two of them. The Cleric of Gorum that was optimized to do a ton of damage each hit enlarged and moved into position to charge on his next turn. The archer henchman that he was bearing down on hit him with hs first two of three arrows from rapid shot, then crit for 39 damage on the final arrow, putting him down for the count.

Walter Sheppard wrote:

I'd say a player that routinely feels a need to be the center of attention by face-grabbing spell casting npcs, thus preventing anyone else from contributing is also a tad lame.

Same for casters that use save or suck during the first round of a bbeg fight.

This times a thousand.

I pretty much dread playing higher level scenarios nowadays. Not because of the difficulty (anymore) mind you, but because the more a person plays at 5-9 and 7-11 the closer the chance of running into one of these players goes to 100%. People don't have to optimize to build solid characters that can survive hard encouters. I'm not paying so I can collect a chronicle and go home. I had a player playing down in a scenario want to play down and tell me it was because they wanted an "easy paycheck".

Silver Crusade 2/5

"It sounds to me like you're saying that if you don't kill a PC then the NPC's get crushed, which is odd"

That's not what I'm saying. Sorry if it came off like that.

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