Multiclass Archetypes VIII: MCAs Unlimited


Homebrew and House Rules

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How about moving Dire Resilience to 2nd level (replacing detect alignment), and adding the following in place of discern lies at 5th.

Reductive Conditions (Su): At 5th level, whenever a dire harbinger is subject to a spell or effect that bestows the exhausted, fatigued, frightened, nauseated, panicked, shaken, or sickened condition, she can choose to willingly accept the condition to gain damage reduction 1/— for as long as the condition is in effect. Every four levels beyond 5t, this damage reduction increases by one, up to damage reduction 4/— at 17th level. This ability replaces discern lies.


# Dire Harbinger

Awesome work Elghinn, as ever. You are a machine of the concise and the clarified.

Here's my comments:

* Why 4 skill points as Oracle instead of Inquisitor's 6? Thematically I'm ok with that - I guess the DH is a little less broad in its scope…

* I'd prefer to drop Gift of Prophecy and Lore of Insight to get a Revelation from level 1.

But Gift of Prophecy is bundled up with Mystery and Oracle's Curse as swaps for Domain.

Again though, Oracle's Curse comes with a negative, and a Mystery without revelations (or spells, which everyone agrees on) is not worth much.….

Waiting until level 3 for the DH's first Revelation is harsh, but level 2 doesn't really work… Hmm, thoughts? (See my thoughts below on cutting out Shared Revelation below…)

* I don't think I mentioned this before, or if I did I forgot - seeing as the DH is about force of personality and dire warnings I want the key stat to be Charisma for Punishment DCs and spell casting.

* Share Revelation should be limited to Cha modifier within 10 feet. I like this but it really doesn't work with Inquisitor's Solo tactics thematically. Sad to say we'll cut this out completely - I'll save it for a Cav/Ora or Skald/Oracle. How about something along the lines of gaining a bonus to the DC of Punishments depending on proximity of allies? Or if DC is a bit overpowered, add to the effective level of the Punishment.

* Aura of Affliction: Could use Wrack here as "Wracking Aura". I guess this is just going to be a tricky one for the GM to adjudicate - the Blackened Curse for example gives -4 to weapon attacks…

* I'm fine with Dire Resilience and Reductive Conditioning - great abilities and well on theme.


# Copper Cannoneer

* As someone mentioned upthread, I'd prefer this to be non-reliant on the mount.

* Why is it Copper?

* I really like the design space of making the Order the creative adjustment/engine.

@Lindley - sorry, I did get your PM, haven't had a chance to reply yet. ;)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

copper cannoneer gave me an idea but I don't particularly want to do it myself as I rarely play either class.

so anyone can take it if they want it.
#Cannoneer
Gunslinger/(alchemist or barbarian)

literally just uses over sized firearms, and uses explosive ammo too maybe.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

# Dire Harbinger

Awesome work Elghinn, as ever. You are a machine of the concise and the clarified.

Here's my comments:

* Why 4 skill points as Oracle instead of Inquisitor's 6? Thematically I'm ok with that - I guess the DH is a little less broad in its scope…

My bad. I was thinking Oracle was 2 + Int like Cleric, so the discrepency would default to 4 + Int. But it should be 6 + Int.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

* I'd prefer to drop Gift of Prophecy and Lore of Insight to get a Revelation from level 1.

But Gift of Prophecy is bundled up with Mystery and Oracle's Curse as swaps for Domain.

Again though, Oracle's Curse comes with a negative, and a Mystery without revelations (or spells, which everyone agrees on) is not worth much.….

Waiting until level 3 for the DH's first Revelation is harsh, but level 2 doesn't really work… Hmm, thoughts? (See my thoughts below on cutting out Shared Revelation below…)

I looked at that at the very start when I was moving abilities around for my current version. The Oracle gets 6 revelations + final revelation. Currently, DH gets 6 (3/6/9/12/15/18), but no final revelation. I didn't want the MCA getting more revelations than the Oracle, but, I think that's fine, as its NOT getting a final revelation. So we can put in the revelation at 1st if you want.

So, let's replace Domain and teamwork feats with gift of prophecy, mystery, revelations, and oracle's curse. Domain grants a 1st level and 6th/8th level power. So I think revelation at 1st takes care of the 1st level power. Then we move Gift of prophecy to 6th level as the swap for the 6th/8th level power.

Then we can keep lore of insight for Monster lore.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
* I don't think I mentioned this before, or if I did I forgot - seeing as the DH is about force of personality and dire warnings I want the key stat to be Charisma for Punishment DCs and spell casting.

Done!

Dire Presence: The dire harbinger uses Charisma instead of Wisdom to determine the effects of her judgments, spells, and other class features.

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
* Share Revelation should be limited to Cha modifier within 10 feet. I like this but it really doesn't work with Inquisitor's Solo tactics thematically. Sad to say we'll cut this out completely - I'll save it for a Cav/Ora or Skald/Oracle. How about something along the lines of gaining a bonus to the DC of Punishments depending on proximity of allies? Or if DC is a bit overpowered, add to the effective level of the Punishment.

It replaces solo tactics, but if you want to replace it, that's fine. Not sure what to replace it with though. How about the Share Spells ability, but only 1 designated ally within 10 feet?

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
* Aura of Affliction: Could use Wrack here as "Wracking Aura". I guess this is just going to be a tricky one for the GM to adjudicate - the Blackened Curse for example gives -4 to weapon attacks…

Changed to Wracking Aura (and Greater version at 12th)

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
* I'm fine with Dire Resilience and Reductive Conditioning - great abilities and well on theme.

Great!


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

# Copper Cannoneer

* As someone mentioned upthread, I'd prefer this to be non-reliant on the mount.

* Why is it Copper?

* I really like the design space of making the Order the creative adjustment/engine.

@Lindley - sorry, I did get your PM, haven't had a chance to reply yet. ;)

My rework is making the mount as an "allied gunner assistant", sort of. So there are abilities that let the mount fire the firearm by spending grit. The mount is treated as a "support" for the firearm (which I'm limiting to culverin and a new hand cannon I've created). which negates the -4 attack penalty and knockec prone effect when such firearms aren't "anchored" (ledge, window sill, etc.).

Copper: Weren't cannons later made of copper? Or was is brass? I think it was Brass. Brass Cannoneer? Thoughts for a rename?

I'm working out stuff that's actually replacing the Order design space. So this one won't have an Order, but will have deeds (scattered throughout, but not level groupings like the normal deeds list) and grit.


#Copper Cannoneer

Might I suggest a skill added towards mid-levels that allows them to make use of a small horse-drawn siege weapon like a portable cannon? something like this;

Siege Mount: At level X, your are able to make use of a single small siege weapon without the need of a crew. This can only be done if the mount transporting the weapon assists in it's positioning. The Copper Cannoneer may supplement his Handle Animal skill in place of any others when preparing, aiming and handling this siege engine.

As for renaming the class? perhaps something like Siege Cavalryman, Mounted Cannoneer, Artillery Chief, Bombard Horseman...


# Dire Harbinger

Sorry I wasn't clear - I was thinking along these lines for a tweak of the Solo Tactics ability - treating your DH as bolstered by allies, but not directly bolstering them...

OSW wrote:
How about something along the lines of gaining a bonus to the DC of Punishments depending on proximity of allies? Or if [boosting] DC is a bit overpowered, add to the effective level of the Punishment.

With the latter idea, say for every ally/two allies within 10' the DH is treated as one level higher for the purpose of Punishments... (This is a tweak of the Suit Seeker Inquisitor archetype who can draw two harrow cards, for each card that matches a particular judgment she effective level raises by one for that judgment)


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

# Dire Harbinger

Sorry I wasn't clear - I was thinking along these lines for a tweak of the Solo Tactics ability - treating your DH as bolstered by allies, but not directly bolstering them...

OSW wrote:
How about something along the lines of gaining a bonus to the DC of Punishments depending on proximity of allies? Or if [boosting] DC is a bit overpowered, add to the effective level of the Punishment.

With the latter idea, say for every ally/two allies within 10' the DH is treated as one level higher for the purpose of Punishments... (This is a tweak of the Suit Seeker Inquisitor archetype who can draw two harrow cards, for each card that matches a particular judgment she effective level raises by one for that judgment)

I'll take a look at the archetype. Sounds fine to me, but isn't that what "Slayer" does at 17th? Gives her a +5 level boost to determine effects of her judgements.

I suppose it would just come earlier, and could be limited to max his Cha modifier. Say every ally within 10 feet, his equivalent inquisitor level for determining effects of his punishments increases by 1, up to his Cha modifier. Now this should probably have some sort of limit. Either usable X/day, lasts a certain number of rounds, is activated as a swift or move action, etc.

I would almost just make this a 3 + Cha mod/day ability, benefit lasts for X rounds, and increases and lowers as allies enter/leave the 10-foot radius, activate as a swift action.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

#copper cannoneer

//#Aspect of Artillery
//#Copper Roarer
//#Brass Legionnaire
//#Cannonslinger


#Dire Harbinger

How about this OSW?

Fortified Persona (Su): At 3rd level, a dire harbinger can draw upon the strength of her allies to increase the power of her punishments. As a swift action, a dire harbinger can increase her equivalent level for the purposes of determining the penalties bestowed by her punishments by 1 for every ally within 10 feet, up to her Charisma modifier. This increase can fluctuate if allies enter and leave the 10-foot area. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 her dire harbinger level. Unlike other types of punishment, the one enhanced by this ability cannot be changed for the duration of this ability. A dire harbinger can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This ability replaces solo tactics.


# Dire Harbinger

All good Elghinn! Nice work. I'd say that's done.

Dark Archive

Has anyone claimed the Shaman/Cleric or the Cleric/Shaman slots?

Dark Archive

----------
I have been thinking... but MCAs with the Synthesist Summoner either as the primary or the secondary class allows one to mimicking a great number of characters or ideas: such as from from the Shaman King series, Bleach series, a few characters from D.Gray Men, almost any magical girl genre series counting Magic Knights: Rayearth (down to their mascot/sidekick), Legend of Dragoon video game characters, the Avatar from T.L.A.B. and T.L.o.K as (especially since the reveal that Avatar State is because of the first Avatar binding with an ancient spirit), and so many more.

Seriously this archetype has wonderful potential for a huge number of , often Japanese style, fantasy tropes and characters as MCAs. A character powering up or taking on a new form with an outfit or appearance change to go with it.


Alright! With Dire Harbinger done, her's the Infused Mage. This was originally conceptualized by MADAK.

INFUSED MAGE:

Most alchemists are considered lucky, surviving their experimentations through sheer force of will. However, some are quite different from their peers. Whether a product of dangerous curiosity or reckless ambition, infused mages have discovered the essence of the arcane. Through a complex procedure, the infused mage suffuses this essence within an eldritch mutagen which, upon imbibing it, grants him the benefits of a single arcane bloodline for a short period of time. Focused and creative in their endeavors, infused mages constantly and tirelessly refine these eldritch mutagens in an attempt to master the arcane energies distilled within.

Primary Class: Alchemist.
Secondary Class: Sorcerer.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The infused mage may select three sorcerer skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal alchemist class skills. The infused mage gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The infused mage is proficient with all simple weapons. He is not proficient with any armor or with shields.

Eldritch Mutagen (Su): At 1st level, an infused mage discovers how to create a mutagen that he can imbibe in order to grant him strange magical powers. It takes 1 hour to brew a dose of eldritch mutagen, and once brewed, it remains potent until used. An infused mage can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time (eldritch or otherwise)—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert. As with an extract or bomb, an eldritch mutagen that is not in an infused mage's possession becomes inert until an infused mage picks it up again.

At 1st level, an infused mage selects a sorcerer bloodline from those listed in the Sorcerer class description. An infused mage cannot choose any bloodlines from those listed as wildblooded bloodlines. Whenever the infused mage brews an eldritch mutagen, it is infused with traits associated with that sorcerer bloodline. Upon being imbibed, the infused mage gains his chosen bloodline’s arcana. He also gains his first level power while the eldritch mutagen persists or until all daily uses of the power have been expended, whichever comes first. It's a standard action to drink an eldritch mutagen. An infused mage uses his Intelligence in place of Charisma to determine the effects and uses of his bloodline power. While the eldritch mutagen persists, the infused mage receives a -2 penalty to his Intelligence score.

A non-Infused mage who drinks an eldritch mutagen must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the infused mage's level + the infused mage's Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour—a non-infused mage can never gain the benefit of an eldritch mutagen, but an infused mage can gain the effects of another infused mage's mutagen if he drinks it. (Although, if the other infused mage creates a different eldritch mutagen, the effects of the “stolen” eldritch mutagen immediately cease.) The effects of an eldritch mutagen do not stack. Whenever an infused mage drinks an eldritch mutagen, the effects of any previous eldritch mutagen immediately end. This ability replaces mutagen and throw anything.

Discoveries: This is exactly like the alchemist ability of the same name, except that an infused mage gains a discovery at 2nd level and an every three levels thereafter. An infused mage may only choose from the following discoveries: Acid Bomb, Cognatogen, Cold Bomb, Combine Extracts, Concussive Bomb, Dilution, Enhance Potion, Eternal Potion, Extend Potion, Force Bomb, Infuse Mutagen, Infusion, Mutagen, and Shock Bomb.

In addition, the following new discoveries can be chosen only by the infused mage.

Eldritch Arcana: The infused mage adds one of his bloodline spells to his list of formulae. The infused mage must be able to create extracts of the spell’s level (maximum his 6th level bloodline spell) and be at least the indicated level at which the spell is granted to select the bloodline spell. Each time it is selected it applies to a different bloodline spell. The infused mage can choose the bloodline spell from his first or second chosen bloodline. An infused mage can select this discovery up to four times.

Grand Eldritch Mutagen (Su): The infused mage’s eldritch mutagen grants him his fifteenth level bloodline power, in addition to his first, third, and ninth level bloodline powers. In addition, while his eldritch mutagen persists, the infused mage’s effective caster level is now equal to his level –3 (minimum 1st level). The infused mage must be at least 16th level and have the Greater Eldritch Mutagen discovery to select this discovery.

Greater Eldritch Mutagen (Su): The infused mage’s eldritch mutagen grants him his ninth level bloodline power, in addition to his first and third level bloodline powers. In addition, while his eldritch mutagen persists, the infused mage’s effective caster level is now equal to his level –2 (minimum 1st level). The infused mage must be at least 10th level and have the Improved Eldritch Mutagen discovery to select this discovery.

Improved Eldritch Mutagen (Su): The infused mage’s eldritch mutagen grants him his third level bloodline power, in addition to his first level bloodline power. In addition, while his eldritch mutagen persists, the infused mage’s effective caster level is equal to his level –1 (minimum 1st level). The infused mage must be at least 4th level to select this discovery.

Bombs (Su): This is exactly like the alchemist ability of the same name, except that the infused mage deals 1d6 points of fire damage at 3rd level, and an additional 1d6 points of fire damage at 7th, 10th, 13th, 15th, and 19th level.

Infused Bombs (Su): At 6th level, an infused mage can choose one bloodline power gained from his eldritch mutagen that he can use to affect a single opponent. If the infused mage makes a successful bomb attack against an opponent, in addition to dealing his bomb damage, he can spend a swift action to deliver the effects of the chosen bloodline power to that opponent. Doing so provokes no attacks of opportunity. An infused mage’s eldritch mutagen must be in effect to use this ability. This ability replaces the discovery gained at 6th level.

Second Bloodline: At 11th level, an infused sorcerer may choose a second bloodline. He can choose to infuse his eldritch mutagen with the traits of this second bloodline or those of the bloodline he selected at 1st level. Only one bloodline can be infused within a single dose of eldritch mutagen. This ability replaces bomb 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, and 8d6, the discovery gained at 14th level, and grand discovery.

Table: Infused Mage
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th

1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Alchemy, brew potion, eldritch mutagen, throw anything 1 — — — — —
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Discovery, poison resistance +2, poison use 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Bomb 1d6, swift alchemy 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Discovery 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Poison resistance +4 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Infused bomb, swift poisoning 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Bomb 2d6 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Discovery, poison resistance +6 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Bomb 3d6 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Discovery, poison immunity 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Second bloodline 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Discovery 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Bomb 4d6 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Persistent mutagen 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Bomb 5d6 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Discovery 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Discovery, instant alchemy 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Bomb 6d6 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Discovery 5 5 5 5 5 5


Here's my revised and fleshed out 1st version of the Copper Cannoneer. I got rid of the the whole Order Blasts, and Orders altogether.

COPPER CANNONEER v1:

Some warriors are known for their skill with a mount, while others are known for their skill with a gun. Copper cannoneers are skilled firearms experts, specifically with hand cannons and culverns. Through their expertise, they have learned to train their mounts to serve as a normal steed, but also as a mobile cannon and secondary triggerman, allowing the mount to discharge the weapon with a special triggering mechanism constructed for that purpose. Few are sure how the practice started, but all are sure of how it ends–with their foes laying lifeless on the ground.

Primary Class: Cavalier.
Secondary Class: Gunslinger.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d10.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The copper cannoneer selects three gunslinger skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cavalier class skills. The copper cannoneer gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The copper cannoneer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all firearms, plus the hand cannon. He is also proficient with light and medium armor, but not with shields.

Cannoneer: At 1st level, a copper cannoneer gains the gunslinger’s gunsmith ability, except that he gains one of the following cannon-like firearms of her choice: culverin or hand cannon. In addition, the copper cannoneer gains Amateur Gunslinger as a bonus feat. This ability and grit replace the cavalier’s order.

Grit (Ex): At 1st level, a copper cannoneer gains the gunslinger’s grit ability, but uses his Charisma to determine his number of grit points instead of his Wisdom.

Mounted Cannon (Ex): At 1st level, a copper cannoneer trains his mount to carry and operate his chosen firearm through the use of a specially crafted harnesss. This harness secures the firearm to the mount and negates the–4 penalty on the attack rolls and the knock prone effect usually received when the copper cannoneer would normally discharge his chosen firearms without support (such as a wall, a window, or a stand). The harness is fitted with a special mechanism that allows the mount to discharge the firearm. The copper cannoneer may spend 1 grit point to command his mount to discharge the firearm as a standard action. When discharging the firearm, the mount uses the copper cannoneer’s attack bonus, but takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. The firearm must be loaded for it to be discharged by the mount. The mount cannot load the firearm. This ability replaces tactician.

Spotter (Ex): At 2nd level, as a standard action, a copper cannoneer’s mount can spend 1 grit point to pinpoint a target within the copper cannoneer’s line of sight and inform its master of the target's exact location. During the copper cannoneer’s next turn, if he makes a ranged attack against the pinpointed target and would take a penalty on his attack roll due to range, he may reduce this penalty by an amount equal to his Charisma modifier (to a minimum penalty of 0). The copper cannoneer must be mounted upon or adjacent to his mount and able to communicate to use this deed, though a copper cannoneer may move away from the mount during his turn and still gain the benefits of this deed. This deed and targeted blast replaces the order’s 2nd level ability.

Targeted Blast (Ex): At 2nd level, when using his culverin or hand cannon, the copper cannoneer can spend 1 grit point to focus the brunt of the blast on a single creature within the target area. The target creature takes 1 additional point of damage for each level the copper cannoneer possesses. This is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. At 7th level and for every 5 levels the copper cannoneer possesses beyond that, he can select an additional creature to target with this bonus damage. Targets must be selected before any attack rolls or saving throws are made.
Vigilant Loading (Ex): At 4th level, as long as the copper cannoneer has at least 1 grit point, he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when loading a culvering or hand cannon. At 10th level, this also applies to cannons and light ballistae. This ability replaces expert trainer.

Cannon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a copper cannoneer increases his skill with the culverin and hand cannon. He gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to his Dexterity modifier, and when he misfires with these firearm, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on dama-ge rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a copper cannoneer never misfires with a culverin or hand cannon. This ability replaces banner, greater tactician, demanding challenge, and master tactician.

Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, a copper cannoneer gains the gunslinger’s dead shot deed. This deed and scattershot replace challenge 3/day.

Scattershot (Ex): At 7th level, if the copper cannoneer has at least 1 grit point, he can increase the effectiveness of scattering shots from his culverin or hand cannon. The cone radius of scattering shots increase by 5 feet for every three levels the copper cannoneer possesses (to a maximum of 30 feet at 18th level). If the copper cannoneer spends 1 grit point, the cone radius of scattering shot increases by an additional 10 feet (to a maximum of 40 feet at 18th level).

Siege Mount (Ex): At 8th level, a copper cannoneer’s mount is trained in the operation go light siege engines, and is treated as a member of the engine’s crew. This allows the mount to assist the copper cannoneering in the positioning, aiming, and firing (not loading) of light sieges engines. The copper cannoneer and mount can operate any light siege engine requiring a crew of 2 or fewer. Light siege engines requiring more than a crew of 2 to operate (the light trebuchet) would still require a total crew of 3. In addition, the copper cannoneer can use his Handle Animal skill checks in place of any other checks required for positioning, aiming, or handling a light siege engine. This ability replaces the order ability gained at 8th level.

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the copper cannoneer has at least 1 grit point, he can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If he has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), he can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This deed replaces the bonus feat gained at 12th level. This deed and mighty blast replace mighty charge.

Mighty Blast (Ex): At 11th level, a copper cannoneer can spend 1 grit point to enhance the power and range of firearm. The damage of his culverin or hand cannon increases by one damage category (1d10 to 2d6, 2d6 to 2d8, etc.), and its range increases by 5 feet for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier.

Vigilant Shooter (Ex): At 14th level, as long as a copper cannoneer spends 1 grit point when he does so, he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing a culverin or hand cannon. At 19th level, this also applies to cannons and light ballistae. This ability replaces greater banner.

Natural Shot (Ex): At 15th level, a mount can discharge the copper cannoneer’s culverin as a natural attack as part of a full-attack action. The copper cannoneer must spend 1 grit point and the firearm must be loaded to be able to use this ability. This deed replaces the order ability gained at 15th level.

Deadly Blast (Ex): At 16th level, the copper cannoneer can spend 1 grit point to make a deadly blast with his culverin or hand cannon. As a standard action, the copper cannoneer makes a single ranged attack. When he does, he makes the attack against the target’s touch AC and ignores all damage reduction. If the attack is successful, the target takes damage as normal. The attack is also treated as a splash weapon attack, dealing damage equal to the copper cannoneer’s level to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. This ability replaces challenge 5/day.

Supreme Blast (Ex): At 20th level, whenever the copper cannoneer makes a firearm attack with his culverin or hand cannon while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage. In addition, if the copper cannoneer confirms a critical hit on a culverin or hand cannon attack while mounted, the target is stunned for 1d4 rounds. A Will save reduces this to staggered for 1d4 rounds. The DC is equal to 10 + the copper cannoneer’s base attack bonus. This ability replaces supreme charge.

HAND CANNON
A hand cannon is a lighter and less powerful version of a culverin, consisting of a simple smoothbore tube, sealed at one end except for a small hole used to ignite a gunpowder charge. A wooden stock partially encases the barrel, allowing the wielder to hold it under his arm with relative ease when carrying it. Unlike a culverin, firing a hand cannon without support (such as a wall, a window, or a stand) does not imparts a –4 penalty on the attack rolls, nor is the wielder knocked prone, unless the wielder uses a hand cannon larger than his size. A hand cannon uses 3 doses of black powder and either a single small cannonball or grapeshot. A hand cannon has the following statistics.

Firearm Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Misfire Capacity Weight Type Special
Hand Cannon 3,500 gp 1d10 2d6 x4 30 ft. 1 (10 ft.) 1 30 lbs. B and P scatter

Table: Copper Cannoneer
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special

1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Cannoneer, challenge 1/day, grit mount, mounted cannon
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Spotter, targeted blast
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Cavalier’s charge
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Challenge 2/day, vigilant loading
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Cannon training 1
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Bonus feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Dead shot, scattershot
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Siege mount
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Cannon training 2
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Challenge 3/day
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Lightning reload, mighty blast
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Cannon training 3, challenge 4/day
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Vigilant shooter
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Natural shot
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Deadly blast
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Cannon training 4
18th +18/+8/+13/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Challenge 5/day
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Supreme blast


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Infused mage seems pretty straightforward.

all that it changes is the alchemist's mutagen ability, which can still be gained from a discovery.

I say this is pretty close to the mongrel mage sorc archetype so we should come up with something to give it some pizzaz.


Thoughts?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Copper Cannoneer made me think of a neat class.

(no i have no idea why either)

#Witch Hunter
Gunslinger/Wizard

has a familiar and some defensive abilities against spell casting, with grit being replaces by 1/2 spell casting.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Thoughts?

we could add the ability to gain bloodrage/bloodrager bloodlines.

we could add a discovery to allow a single wild blood, that can be chosen multiple times but different bloodlines.

we could add an ability at level 11 to allow for a cross blooded bloodline.

Advocates

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Dang, I absolutely adore what's been done with the copper cannoneer! I think it looks absolutely amazing, although I did like the order blasts. If he consensus would be to drop them, I'm fine with doing so, but I would prefer to maintain them... Oh, and sorry or the lack of activity, I've had a lot of school-related stuff on my plate.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Bandw2 wrote:

Copper Cannoneer made me think of a neat class.

(no i have no idea why either)

#Witch Hunter
Gunslinger/Wizard

has a familiar and some defensive abilities against spell casting, with grit being replaces by 1/2 spell casting.

sigh, I think I want this to be my next MCA now...

also probably remove my possessed scion, i can't seem to get him to work out mechanically, I wanted to make a bloodrager that used oracle mysteries and was a 1/2 divine caster, but oh well.


#Copper Cannoneer (or whatever it shall be named)

Looking good so far, very close to completion I'd say, though it's sad to see the Order abilities go.

#Infused Mage

Yeah, I agree with @Bandw2 on this one. There are already three Alchemist/Sorcerer MCA's as it is... so theres not much breathing space for anything new that can't be done by making a few tweaks to others. There's also the handicap that some bloodlines offer more offensive powers than others when using 'Infused Bombs'.

I would say perhaps go for Sorcerer/Alchemist, work the discoveries into bloodlines maybe? like the Aberrant bloodline granting the tentacle discovery, then nauseating flesh, so on and so forth, so discoveries match up with bloodlines. Bombs might be difficult to squeeze in however.

If that doesn't take your fancy, I'd say wait until the new ACG classes are out and try and shape this one towards an Alchemist/Arcanist, the combination of arcanist exploits and discoveries may work well here, and bloodlines can still be taken as a mandatory arcanist exploit first level.


Lindley Court wrote:
Dang, I absolutely adore what's been done with the copper cannoneer! I think it looks absolutely amazing, although I did like the order blasts. If he consensus would be to drop them, I'm fine with doing so, but I would prefer to maintain them... Oh, and sorry or the lack of activity, I've had a lot of school-related stuff on my plate.

Well, if you really want to keep the Order stuff, we can do that. I can combine a bunch of the stuff into groups of deeds and swap out bonus feats instead of the order stuff.


Tyrannical wrote:

#Infused Mage

Yeah, I agree with @Bandw2 on this one. There are already three Alchemist/Sorcerer MCA's as it is... so theres not much breathing space for anything new that can't be done by making a few tweaks to others. There's also the handicap that some bloodlines offer more offensive powers than others when using 'Infused Bombs'.

I would say perhaps go for Sorcerer/Alchemist, work the discoveries into bloodlines maybe? like the Aberrant bloodline granting the tentacle discovery, then nauseating flesh, so on and so forth, so discoveries match up with bloodlines. Bombs might be difficult to squeeze in however.

If that doesn't take your fancy, I'd say wait until the new ACG classes are out and try and shape this one towards an Alchemist/Arcanist, the combination of arcanist exploits and discoveries may work well here, and bloodlines can still be taken as a mandatory arcanist exploit first level.

Hmm, yeah! We have quite a few Alc/Sor MCAs. Might be a good idea to make it an Alc/Arc and spread the Alchemist love to a different arcane caster. What do others think?


OK, here's the tweaked Copper Cannoneer.

Copper Cannoneer v2:

Some warriors are known for their skill with a mount, while others are known for their skill with a gun. Copper cannoneers are skilled firearms experts, specifically with culverins and hand cannons. Through their expertise, they have learned to train their mounts to serve as a normal steed, but also as a mobile cannon and secondary triggerman, allowing the mount to discharge the weapon with a special triggering mechanism constructed for that purpose. Few are sure how the practice started, but all are sure of how it ends–with their foes laying lifeless on the ground.

Primary Class: Cavalier.
Secondary Class: Gunslinger.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d10.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The copper cannoneer selects three gunslinger skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal cavalier class skills. The copper cannoneer gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The copper cannoneer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all firearms, plus the hand cannon. He is also proficient with light and medium armor, but not with shields.

Cannoneer: At 1st level, a copper cannoneer gains the gunslinger’s gunsmith ability, except that he gains one of the following cannon-like firearms of her choice: culverin or hand cannon. This ability replaces challenge 1/day.

Mounted Cannon (Ex): At 1st level, a copper cannoneer’s mount is trained to carry and operate his chosen firearm through the use of a specially crafted harnesss. This harness secures the firearm to the mount and negates the–4 penalty on the attack rolls and the knock prone effect usually received when the copper cannoneer would normally discharge his chosen firearms without support (such as a wall, a window, or a stand). The harness is fitted with a special mechanism that allows the mount to discharge the firearm, using a standard action. The copper cannoneer may command his mount to discharge the firearm as a free action. When discharging the firearm, the mount uses the copper cannoneer’s attack bonus, but takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. The firearm must be loaded for it to be discharged by the mount. The mount cannot load the firearm. This ability and siege mount replace tactician.

Deeds: At 3rd level, a copper cannoneer gains the gunslinger’s deeds ability. He gains access to deeds at 3rd level and every four levels thereafter, but only gains access to the following deeds.

Targeted Blast (Ex): At 3rd level, when using his culverin or hand cannon, the copper cannoneer can spend 1 grit point to focus the brunt of the blast on a single creature within the target area. The target creature takes 1 additional point of damage for each level the copper cannoneer possesses. This is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. At 7th level and for every 4 levels the copper cannoneer possesses beyond that, he can select an additional creature to target with this bonus damage. Targets must be selected before any attack rolls or saving throws are made.

Vigilant Loading (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the copper cannoneer has at least 1 grit point, he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when loading a culvering or hand cannon. At 10th level, this also applies to cannons and light ballistae.

Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, a copper cannoneer gains the gunslinger’s dead shot deed.

Scattershot (Ex): At 7th level, if the copper cannoneer has at least 1 grit point, he can increase the effectiveness of scattering shots from his culverin or hand cannon. The cone radius of scattering shots increase by 5 feet at 7th level, for every two levels the copper cannoneer possesses, to a maximum of 30 feet at 17th level. If the copper cannoneer spends 1 grit point, the cone radius of scattering shot increases by 10 feet, plus 5 feet every two levels the copper cannoneer possesses beyond 7th, to a maximum of 40 feet at 19th level.

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the copper cannoneer has at least 1 grit point, he can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If he has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), he can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Mighty Blast (Ex): At 11th level, a copper cannoneer can spend 1 grit point to enhance the power and range of firearm. The damage of his culverin or hand cannon increases by one damage category (1d10 to 2d6, 2d6 to 2d8, etc.), and its range increases by 5 feet for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma modifier.

Vigilant Shooter (Ex): At 15th level, as long as a copper cannoneer spends 1 grit point when he does so, he does not provoke attacks of opportunity when firing a culverin or hand cannon. At 18th level, this also applies to cannons and light ballistae.

Deadly Blast (Ex): At 15th level, the copper cannoneer can spend 1 grit point to make a deadly blast with his culverin or hand cannon. As a standard action, the copper cannoneer makes a single ranged attack. When he does, he makes the attack against the target’s touch AC and ignores all damage reduction. If the attack is successful, the target takes damage as normal. The attack is also treated as a splash weapon attack, dealing damage equal to the copper cannoneer’s level to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.

Cannoneer’s Luck (Ex): At 19th level, the copper cannoneer can spend grit to reroll an attack roll made with his culverin or hand cannon, or skill checks related to siege engines. It costs 2 grit points to reroll an attack roll, and 1 grit point to reroll a skill check. The copper cannoneer must take the result of the second roll, even if it is lower. The deed’s cost cannot be reduced by the true grit class ability, the Signature Deed feat, or any other effect that reduces the amount of grit a deed costs.

Stunning Shot (Ex): At 19th level, the copper cannoneer gains the gunslinger’s stunning shot deed.

This ability replaces cavalier’s charge, challenge 3/day, demanding challenge, and challenge 7/day.

Grit (Ex): At 3rd level, a copper cannoneer gains the gunslinger’s grit ability, but uses his Charisma to determine his number of grit points instead of his Wisdom.

Spotter (Ex): At 4th level, as a standard action, a copper cannoneer’s mount can pinpoint a target within the copper cannoneer’s line of sight and inform him of the target's exact location. During the copper cannoneer’s next turn, if he makes a ranged attack against the pinpointed target and would take a penalty on his attack roll due to range, he may reduce this penalty by an amount equal to his Charisma modifier (to a minimum penalty of 0). The copper cannoneer must be mounted upon or adjacent to his mount and able to communicate to use this ability, though a copper cannoneer may move away from the mount during his turn and still gain the benefits of this deed. This ability replaces expert trainer.

Cannon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a copper cannoneer increases his skill with the culverin and hand cannon. He gains a bonus on damage rolls equal to his Dexterity modifier, and when he misfires with these firearms, the misfire value increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on dama-ge rolls increases by +1. At 13th level, a copper cannoneer never misfires with a culverin or hand cannon. This ability replaces banner, greater tactician, challenge 5/day, and master tactician.

Siege Mount (Ex): At 10th level, a copper cannoneer’s mount is trained in the operation light siege engines, and is treated as a member of the engine’s crew. This allows the mount to assist the copper cannoneering in the positioning, aiming, and firing (not loading) of light sieges engines. The copper cannoneer and mount can operate any light siege engine requiring a crew of 2 or fewer. Light siege engines requiring more than a crew of 2 to operate (the light trebuchet) would still require a total crew of 3. In addition, the copper cannoneer can use his Handle Animal skill checks in place of any other checks required for positioning, aiming, or handling a light siege engine.

Natural Shot (Ex): At 14th level, as part of a full-attack action, the copper cannoneer’s mount can discharge his culverin or hand cannon, treating the firearm as one of its natural attacks. The firearm must be loaded for the mount to discharge the firearm as normal. This ability replaces greater banner.

Supreme Blast (Ex): At 20th level, whenever the copper cannoneer makes a firearm attack with his culverin or hand cannon while mounted, he deals double the normal amount of damage. In addition, if the copper cannoneer confirms a critical hit on a culverin or hand cannon attack while mounted, the target is stunned for 1d4 rounds. A Will save reduces this to staggered for 1d4 rounds. The DC is equal to 10 + the copper cannoneer’s base attack bonus. This ability replaces supreme charge.

HAND CANNON
A hand cannon is a lighter and less powerful version of a culverin, consisting of a simple smoothbore tube, sealed at one end except for a small hole used to ignite a gunpowder charge. A wooden stock partially encases the barrel, allowing the wielder to hold it under his arm with relative ease when carrying it. Unlike a culverin, firing a hand cannon without support (such as a wall, a window, or a stand) does not imparts a –4 penalty on the attack rolls, nor is the wielder knocked prone, unless the wielder uses a hand cannon larger than his size. A hand cannon uses 3 doses of black powder and either a single small cannonball or grapeshot. A hand cannon has the following statistics.

Firearm Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Misfire Capacity Weight Type Special
Hand Cannon 3,500 gp 1d10 2d6 x4 30 ft. 1 (10 ft.) 1 30 lbs. B and P scatter

Table: Copper Cannoneer
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special

1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Cannoneer, mount, mounted cannon, order
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Order ability
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Deeds, grit
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Challenge 1/day, spotter
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Cannon training 1
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Bonus feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Deeds
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Order ability
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Cannon training 2
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Challenge 2/day, siege mount
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Deeds
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Cannon training 3
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Natural shot
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Deeds, order ability
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Challenge 3/day
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Cannon training 4
18th +18/+8/+13/+3 +11 +11 +6 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Deeds
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Supreme blast

Then we can list the Order Blasts once they are all completed. That'll be a lot of work. Also, what about a rename?

Suggestions: Brass Cannoneer, Siege Cavalryman, Mounted Cannoneer, Artillery Chief, Bombard Horseman.


#Infused mage
Have you done an alchemist yet who makes bombs out of wizard spells? Including non-damaging ones. Example: bomb of passwall - throw it at a wall - it becomes passable. Animate dead bomb - pops out undead from the ground. This could replace extracts. Name could be sg. like the infused bomb(er).


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

#infused Mage

let's change his spell casting to be like arcanist's where you prepare some formulae but can cast any of them any number of times.

have exploits and discoveries pull from the same pool as well, and maybe add a 1 spell per spell level that can be taken from the sorc wizard spell list and cast normally. with an exploit maybe to gain additional.

#copper cannoneer

I still say Aspect of Artillery sounds good to me.

or maybe Mobile Bombard or something. I personally don't like the idea of just attaching cavalry or something to the end. basically his name shouldn't be 2 nouns, it should be a noun with an adjective.


I got lost at some point. Is the Velocity Master done yet, or not?


Done.


Noro wrote:

#Infused mage

Have you done an alchemist yet who makes bombs out of wizard spells? Including non-damaging ones. Example: bomb of passwall - throw it at a wall - it becomes passable. Animate dead bomb - pops out undead from the ground. This could replace extracts. Name could be sg. like the infused bomb(er).

It's actually what I plan to do with my upcoming Alchemist/Magus MCA; The Catalyst Grenadier. He uses AoE spells (as well as some others) as extract-like splash weapons, or he adds them to bombs as a variant of Spellstrike.


OK, pulling the Infused Mage off the table for a rebuild as Alc/Arc. So, that puts T's Catalyst Grenadier up next!


Alrighty! This is still a bit of a rough idea so far, so things might be changed a little, along with the name if needs be.

What I'm trying to create in this MCA is an Extract-based AoE caster with a high use of bombs, forgoing mutagens and improving their physical body with potions, instead focusing on high-damage output and combat-oriented uses of Alchemy.

Catalyst Grenadier:

Catalyst Grenadiers are specialized alchemists who forgo the ability to mutate themselves and imbibe beneficial concoctions and instead focus on pyrotechnics. A specialist in the incendiary and chemical nature of bombs, the Catalyst Grenadier employs an arsenal of ranged extracts that when detonated can change the course of battle in an instant. He may also combine these extracts with his bombs to unleash a volatile Armageddon upon his foes, blasting the area with potent and devastating explosives to completely decimate multiple foes at a time.

Primary: Alchemist
Secondary: Magus
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Good Saves: Fort/Ref
Poor Save: Will

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The Catalyst Grenadier selects three Magus skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal Alchemist class skills. The Catalyst Grenadier gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Catalyst Grenadier is proficient with light armor and all simple weapons, as well as any three other weapons from the 'Throwing' Fighter weapon group.

Pyrotechnics: The Catalyst Grenadier is capable of using Alchemy as an Alchemist does, though he is restricted to creating bombs, extracts and alchemical weapons only. He may also create mundane alchemical substances, so long as they are either flammable or volatile (such as oil, alchemists fire and ifrit's blood).

The Catalyst Grenadier also makes uses of a new list of extracts, keeping any extracts that would affect his bombs such as Admixtures or effects empowering ranged weapons. He adds the following to his list of available exctracts; (I haven't got the complete list, but it's pretty much any Magus spell that is 'Area of Effect'). He may use these extracts as a thrown splash weapon, casting on the square it lands.
This ability replaces Alchemy
I wanted to restrict the use of alchemy in this class so it was less about making potions and more about making weapons, this is as best as I could do it in my opinion

Bombs: Same as Alchemist

Throw Anything: Same as Alchemist

Admixture Catalyst: When using any extract that the Catalyst Grenadier can throw, he can treat it as an Admixture extract, allowing him to mix it with his bombs and deliver it via the bombs detonation. When the bomb detonates, it also activates the stored extract in the area it lands.

When using extracts this way, the Catalyst Grenadier may not use any discoveries that affect bomb damage, or otherwise create a spell-like effect on detonation. The damage type of the bomb always matches that of the extract used as an Admixture, if the bomb has no damage, he may instead choose it to deal fire damage or any other energy damage available through discoveries.
This ability replaces Mutagen and Persistent Mutagen
This is essentially Spellstrike with bombs. not sure if this presents balance issues or not but I tried to use some moderation for it's possibilities

Discoveries: The Catalyst Grenadier gains discoveries much like an Alchemist does, gaining his first discovery at level 2 and every 2 levels thereafter. However, he is restricted to only choosing Discoveries that affect his bombs and extracts.

Swift Pyrotechnics: At 3rd level, a Catalyst Grenadier can create alchemical weapons and volatile substances with astounding speed. It takes an alchemist half the normal amount of time to create these items.
This ability replaces Swift Alchemy

Grenadier Training: At 5th level, and every six levels thereafter, a Catalyst Grenadier gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. He may choose from the following feats, so long as he meets the prerequisites for them;
Charging Hurler, Distance Thrower, Close-Quarters Thrower, Ricochet Splash Weapon, Improved Charging Hurler, Splash Volley, Splash Weapon Mastery, Extra Bombs, Implant Bomb, Remote Bomb, Deceptive Exchange, Deafening Explosion.

This ability replaces Poison Use and Poison Resistance
I wanted to put bonus feats into this class similar to Magus, but felt as though it would probably be best if these feats were restricted to a Grenadier style to improve upon the class' abilities more

Fast Bombs: At 6th level, the Catalyst Grenadier gains the 'Fast Bombs' Discovery.
This ability replaces Swift Poisoning

Medium Armor: At 10th level, a Catalyst Grenadier gains proficiency with medium armor.
This ability replaces poison immunity

Instant Pyrotechnics: At 18th level, a Catalyst Grenadier can create alchemical weapons and substances with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical weapon or substance as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation.
This ability replaces Instant Alchemy

Grand Admixtures: At 20th level, the Catalyst Grenadier gains access to an expanded extract list. He learns and places 12 Area of Effect spells from the wizard’s spell list into his formula book as alchemist extracts of their wizard level. He gains two of each of the following wizard spells not on the magus or alchemist spell lists:
1st-level, 2nd-level, 3rd-level, 4th-level, 5th-level, and 6th-level.
This ability replaces grand discovery
This ability is based off the level 19 'Greater Spell Access' of the Magus, seemed to fit better since there are no bomb related grand discoveries, and puts more magus into this class


# Catalyst Grenadier.

I f$@$ing love the Grand Admixture. I will insist it remain unchanged! I do, however, suggest a limited extract list. Much less utility than a standard Alchemist. With the ability to select the bonus feats provided as discoveries aswell.

I can see myself playing a character who insists on explosives as the solution to any possible problem via this class.

Put out a fire? Bomb. Hoards of Demons? Bomb. Building a bridge? Bomb.


#Catalyst Grenadier

We've seen a lot of "bombers" during the MCA process...but I like this one a lot - not just thematically (military grenade specialist) but also for the elegance of the design.

* Let's remove this:

CG wrote:
...forgo the ability to mutate themselves and imbibe beneficial concoctions and instead...

So we describe what the CG does, rather than what it doesn't.

* How about a Discovery that lets the CG choose "lost" alchemist extracts or non AoE magus spells to add to his extract list with the caveat that these be unavailable as bombs. For the grenadier who might want to dabble in CLW to help his team in a pinch, or when he accidentally gets some collateral damage. Or who wants to shocking grasp someone that hot past his bombing run.

I know the Discoveries currently are limited to those that apply to bombs and extracts, but a little utility might increase the applicability of the MCA.

* Fast Bombs for Swift Poisoning is a great thematic swap - I'm just worried about the relative power level. Poisoning is not AoE after all.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
OK, pulling the Infused Mage off the table for a rebuild as Alc/Arc. So, that puts T's Catalyst Grenadier up next!

can I sort of claim it? I'm liking my alchemist that still knows some normal casting, like he has 2 spell casting abilities at the same time.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

#Catalyst Grenadier

We've seen a lot of "bombers" during the MCA process...but I like this one a lot - not just thematically (military grenade specialist) but also for the elegance of the design.

* Let's remove this:

CG wrote:
...forgo the ability to mutate themselves and imbibe beneficial concoctions and instead...

So we describe what the CG does, rather than what it doesn't.

* How about a Discovery that lets the CG choose "lost" alchemist extracts or non AoE magus spells to add to his extract list with the caveat that these be unavailable as bombs. For the grenadier who might want to dabble in CLW to help his team in a pinch, or when he accidentally gets some collateral damage. Or who wants to shocking grasp someone that hot past his bombing run.

I know the Discoveries currently are limited to those that apply to bombs and extracts, but a little utility might increase the applicability of the MCA.

* Fast Bombs for Swift Poisoning is a great thematic swap - I'm just worried about the relative power level. Poisoning is not AoE after all.

There will be more than just AoE extracts, it's mostly just the focus. There will be a few that help improve combat prowess that fit thematically as well as mechanically. I just need help working on the Extract list for this particular MCA.

I might work on some custom discoveries to act as some nice backup utility that would work nicely for this class, I'm open to suggestions of course. Perhaps discoveries that allow bombs to be turned into other useful tools? or perhaps add in a few Magus-themed ones? perhaps one based off 'Fire-brand' that grants different weapon properties, kinda like how a Magus can?

As for the Fast Bombs discovery, it just seemed like a nice fit. without poison there would be no need for a Swift Poisoning ability, so on the theme of being swift with weaponry Fast Bombs seemed to cover it nicely, while providing a 'free' discovery 2 levels earlier than it's usually available.


If you want, I could propose a custom extract list, and afew custom extracts?


Taco Man wrote:
If you want, I could propose a custom extract list, and afew custom extracts?

Sure! most of the extracts I'm taking from Alchemist are the admixture and bomb related ones, as well as more combat supportive ones (kinda like Ranger spells), I'd be taking quite a few of the AoE spells from Magus too, as well as any fitting support ones.

looking over the wizard spell list for fitting level 20 'Grand Admixture' extracts may be a toughie too, but I'm sure if can be accomplished.


Sure. Not like I don't have 30+ other MCAs to make. :D


Bandw2 wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
OK, pulling the Infused Mage off the table for a rebuild as Alc/Arc. So, that puts T's Catalyst Grenadier up next!
can I sort of claim it? I'm liking my alchemist that still knows some normal casting, like he has 2 spell casting abilities at the same time.

I like this concept for any Arcanist MCA - the possibility of "theurging" any class with spellcasting (or extracts) is a real strength and awesome design space.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
OK, pulling the Infused Mage off the table for a rebuild as Alc/Arc. So, that puts T's Catalyst Grenadier up next!
can I sort of claim it? I'm liking my alchemist that still knows some normal casting, like he has 2 spell casting abilities at the same time.
I like this concept for any Arcanist MCA - the possibility of "theurging" any class with spellcasting (or extracts) is a real strength and awesome design space.

Indeed! Remember how we had the Incendiary Mage (Wiz/Alc) and Spell Thief (Rog/Sor). Well I reworked the Spell Thief and renamed it Blood Bandit (Rog/Sor) and I also reworked the Incediary Mage and renamed it the Bomber Mage (Wiz/Alc). Both MCA concepts I were based on old characters fo my friends, and until the Arcanist appeared, I didn't really have the right class to combine with the Alchemist and Rogue to duplicate their abilities and flavor properly. Now I can. So there will be new versions of the Incendiary Mage (Arc/Alc) and the Spell Thief (Rog/Arc), and they are awesome. Lots of design space within the arcanist-primarily its arcane reservoir. I renamed the old version because I wanted to keep Spell Thief and Incendiary Mage for the proper combos. Those'll be my first two ACG MCAs.

Copper Cannoneer
Any thoughts on the reworked version that keeps Order (and abilities) and combines deeds into groups of two?

Also, renaming?

I like Cannoneer as part of the name. Mounted? Artillery? Cavalry? Brazen (related to Brass)? Thoughts?


Well alabaster is a synonym for copper, so that could work.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
OK, pulling the Infused Mage off the table for a rebuild as Alc/Arc. So, that puts T's Catalyst Grenadier up next!
can I sort of claim it? I'm liking my alchemist that still knows some normal casting, like he has 2 spell casting abilities at the same time.
I like this concept for any Arcanist MCA - the possibility of "theurging" any class with spellcasting (or extracts) is a real strength and awesome design space.

Indeed! Remember how we had the Incendiary Mage (Wiz/Alc) and Spell Thief (Rog/Sor). Well I reworked the Spell Thief and renamed it Blood Bandit (Rog/Sor) and I also reworked the Incediary Mage and renamed it the Bomber Mage (Wiz/Alc). Both MCA concepts I were based on old characters fo my friends, and until the Arcanist appeared, I didn't really have the right class to combine with the Alchemist and Rogue to duplicate their abilities and flavor properly. Now I can. So there will be new versions of the Incendiary Mage (Arc/Alc) and the Spell Thief (Rog/Arc), and they are awesome. Lots of design space within the arcanist-primarily its arcane reservoir. I renamed the old version because I wanted to keep Spell Thief and Incendiary Mage for the proper combos. Those'll be my first two ACG MCAs.

Copper Cannoneer
Any thoughts on the reworked version that keeps Order (and abilities) and combines deeds into groups of two?

Also, renaming?

I like Cannoneer as part of the name. Mounted? Artillery? Cavalry? Brazen (related to Brass)? Thoughts?

'

honestly, just call it the Cannoneer.


#Catalyst Grenadier

Tyrannical wrote:


There will be more than just AoE extracts, it's mostly just the focus. There will be a few that help improve combat prowess that fit thematically as well as mechanically. I just need help working on the Extract list for this particular MCA.

I might work on some custom discoveries to act as some nice backup utility that would work nicely for this class, I'm open to suggestions of course. Perhaps discoveries that allow bombs to be turned into other useful tools? or perhaps add in a few Magus-themed ones? perhaps one based off 'Fire-brand' that grants different weapon properties, kinda like how a Magus can?

Actually, I was hoping for some non-damaging bombs. Like Baleful polymorph and Flesh to stone. Maybe teleport reworked so it only affects target, but not caster? That could work as a discovery, at least

(I am working from the magus spell list here, btw)


So can I see my highspeed monk on the site? ^_^


# Catalyst Grenadier

Tyrannical wrote:
As for the Fast Bombs discovery, it just seemed like a nice fit. without poison there would be no need for a Swift Poisoning ability, so on the theme of being swift with weaponry Fast Bombs seemed to cover it nicely, while providing a 'free' discovery 2 levels earlier than it's usually available.

Yes it is as I said a very thematic swap, but boosting the action economy of AoE bombs vs single foe at a time poison is mechanically very different, combat duration and multiple poisons notwithstanding. In fact with longer combats Fast Bombs streaks away from Swift Poisoning in effectiveness markedly.


# Copper Cannoneer

@Bandw2 - I've been trying to get Elghinn to pass single names for my MCAs for about three years now, as close as I have got is double-barreled like Dreadmasque, Dreadnaught and Witchfinder.

If t is mounted, how about Cavalry Canoneer, or Cavalry Artillerist?

* I like the most recent version - glad to see Order has returned and with it some possibility for more versaitility in design and concept.


Bardess wrote:
So can I see my highspeed monk on the site? ^_^

Patience grasshopper... §0_0§


I haven't/won't have internet very often for the past few to the next few weeks so if I came up for a MCA and I didn't reply or if I do come up just skip me. Sorry and thanks for understanding. I'll post again when I have stable internet.

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