must a druid always melee in wildshape form?


Advice


I'm looking at a druid and it seems it's either mainly a spell caster or a wild shape options. I don't see much on using a weapon as a druid, is it just not done? I was thinking of going teamfeat trip for both me and my animal companion. and later on riding it. so just looking at options.


If you plan on meleeing, the stat bonus offered by shaping are far superior than anything a weapon can offer.


You got a scimitar,and a Scythe. I often melee in wild shape,but you can do other things. If you plan on riding you need a all wood lance. You also have medium armor proficiency,but cannot wear metal armor.


The reason for the melee in wildshape are the superior stats for melee and the access to certain abilities (pounce).

You are free to melee in human form and ride a companion into battle, of course. People prefer the most powerful option, though, therefore this is not part of the common druid builds.
(And often you do not need the most powerful build, either. Most DMs are not after your blood ;) )

Another reason why druids are not that great in melee in their human shape is that they receive not many feats. Like most divine casters they don't get bonus feats and cannot pursue the various feat trees like a fighter does.That makes them look poor when going into battle next to a fighter or barbarian. If that is not an issue, a swordwielding druid can be fun - at least I knew once a player who enjoyed his druid immensly, even if he was the least effective fighter. (He just loved to wield the vorpal sickle we got him.)


Scythe.

Yip, when you dont have wildshapes left for the day, use a scythe.


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What, you guys don't dervish-dance, flame-blade, in bat form?


thanks for the support, I like to mix it up and not be so one dimensional. would improved trip and the team feat tandem trip be overkill for me and my pet? I think it'd be a 'trip' to have the both of us nearly always put the bad guy down. lol.

Silver Crusade

hmmm you might want to look at the hunter class from the ACG their animal companions advanced at the same rate as a druids and the animal companions get all of the hunter's teamwork feats for free. If you are stuck on druid for the wild shape ability I would focus on a wild shape build and use a scythe as your back up weapon.


Tripping works worse every level you advance in most games because of the increase in monster CMD, flying opponents and legless opponents. I would think it would be a poor investment. I imagine a druid with a keen scimitar riding a large wolf would be a really effective skirmisher, if you get Ride-By-Attack or the wolf gets Spring Attack it could work very well. I don't know the mounted combat rules very well, I would ask someone else for advice on how to use hit and run tactics while mounted.


Everyone laughs at that baboon on horseback till he whips out a scythe.

If you pick your shapes carefully, you can get the added stats of a wildshape and still use a weapon. You get the bonus to strength weather your shape has claws or hands. When you can wild shape into an earth elemental your melee skills with a weapon can get pretty sick. And since by then your wild shapes last for hours, you can take off all your equipment, wild shape, and put it all back on.


I actually have been through a ton of rules threads about the subject of a weapon using druid.

You see, my argument revolves around the elemental subtype:

Elemental Subtype wrote:

An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

An elemental has the following features.

Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep

The bolded lines hold particular relavence. While a druid never gains the the elemental subtype, I argue that it does provide plenty of evidence that elementals in a humanoid shape can have hands that wield weapons and that they can wear armor. I also argue that larger elementals tend to have humanoid shapes, due to the bestiary descriptions (particularly of earth and fire elementals).

With those assumptions, you could grab a set of leather (or maybe leather lamellar, depending on how you interpret the rules; heck, maybe go for classic dragonscale armor) and a weapon and just treat wildshape as a stat boost and maybe a free, long term enlarge person. And with hands, the ability to speak (elementals have a language), and a long term transformation, you might as well get all your equipment sized for whatever form you wish to stick with. Just wildshape and put it all on like any normal person in the morning

Looking at the stats, large earth elemental might be the best option for a balance of bonus and reasonable size (a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus, plus a reach of 10 feet, is nothing to sneeze at). Weapon-wise, it is either scimitar (for high crit chance) or possible the spear (a large spear hits like a greatsword). And with either, you can play a reach build since your reach covers a circle 30' across with you 10' reach and 10' of space for you in the middle.

I do have to deal with other arguments though (people somehow get the idea that you can't take anything with you while earthgliding, despite the fact that there are a dozen spells and character options that give earthglide without saying anything like that). If you can get it to work.... well, you might want to brush up on water rules, since earthglide works like you were passing through water, and it is possible to get concealment from that. Imagine a spring attacking druid that just will not let you escape and will not stay where you can hit him.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
I do have to deal with other arguments though (people somehow get the idea that you can't take anything with you while earthgliding, despite the fact that there are a dozen spells and character options that give earthglide without saying anything like that). If you can get it to work.... well, you might want to brush up on water rules, since earthglide works like you were passing through water, and it is possible to get concealment from that. Imagine a spring attacking druid that just will not let you escape and will not stay where you can hit him.

You can't argue on the basis that an ability doesn't say you can't do X. You have to show where it says that you CAN do X. Earthglide as a monster ability doesn't generally provide for passengers unless it's specifically called out for the particular monster in question. And there are ways of dealing with spring attacks.


LazarX wrote:
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
I do have to deal with other arguments though (people somehow get the idea that you can't take anything with you while earthgliding, despite the fact that there are a dozen spells and character options that give earthglide without saying anything like that). If you can get it to work.... well, you might want to brush up on water rules, since earthglide works like you were passing through water, and it is possible to get concealment from that. Imagine a spring attacking druid that just will not let you escape and will not stay where you can hit him.
You can't argue on the basis that an ability doesn't say you can't do X. You have to show where it says that you CAN do X. Earthglide as a monster ability doesn't generally provide for passengers unless it's specifically called out for the particular monster in question. And there are ways of dealing with spring attacks.

Yeah, earthglide gets complicated. I mean, there are at least 2 examples of abilities that DOES allow passengers (oracle and a monk archetype; the monk even uses it as an attack).

And even if it doesn't allow passengers, that is a very different circumstance from your own equipment. And if we are talking about general/specific rulings, then the fact that generally, you can wear equipment where ever you go seems to take precedent, since it is a common core assumption. The fact that earth glide doesn't talk about equipment AT ALL in any of its myriad of forms (even when it is on PC's who might have armor and weapons, like the oracle, or at least stat boosting items) makes me question that.

And yes, there are ways to deal with spring attacks from creatures with a 10' reach attacking from underground....but they are a bit limited and you need to be prepared.


My apologies if this has already been suggested, but here's my best first attempt at what the OP asked.

A strength-based half-orc druid could do a decent job. Get power attack, a few teamwork feats, maybe some mounted combat melee feats. Pick up a wolf companion, grab the Beastmaster alternate racial trait, and grab a whip, falchion, and a few nets.

Though you can't ride him until 7th, which is painful. But maybe use teamwork up until then.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
lemeres wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Melvin the Mediocre wrote:
I do have to deal with other arguments though (people somehow get the idea that you can't take anything with you while earthgliding, despite the fact that there are a dozen spells and character options that give earthglide without saying anything like that). If you can get it to work.... well, you might want to brush up on water rules, since earthglide works like you were passing through water, and it is possible to get concealment from that. Imagine a spring attacking druid that just will not let you escape and will not stay where you can hit him.
You can't argue on the basis that an ability doesn't say you can't do X. You have to show where it says that you CAN do X. Earthglide as a monster ability doesn't generally provide for passengers unless it's specifically called out for the particular monster in question. And there are ways of dealing with spring attacks.

Yeah, earthglide gets complicated. I mean, there are at least 2 examples of abilities that DOES allow passengers (oracle and a monk archetype; the monk even uses it as an attack).

And even if it doesn't allow passengers, that is a very different circumstance from your own equipment. And if we are talking about general/specific rulings, then the fact that generally, you can wear equipment where ever you go seems to take precedent, since it is a common core assumption. The fact that earth glide doesn't talk about equipment AT ALL in any of its myriad of forms (even when it is on PC's who might have armor and weapons, like the oracle, or at least stat boosting items) makes me question that.

And yes, there are ways to deal with spring attacks from creatures with a 10' reach attacking from underground....but they are a bit limited and you need to be prepared.

Or do things such as seek out rocks to stand on, or a place with a floor. Earthglide only covers unworked earth. Anything else requires busting through. The various transmute spells see their use as well.


LazarX wrote:
Or do things such as seek out rocks to stand on, or a place with a floor. Earthglide only covers unworked earth. Anything else requires busting through. The various transmute spells...

oooooo....so you are saying that we can set up a scene from the Tremors movies..........

I cans see that as an interesting siege situation. A team of earth elemental shaped druids taking turns attacking them so that the casters can't rest or prepare, meaning they can't gain access to the right spells. The party would have to use problem solving and traps in order to lure the targets out.

Wow, an actually viable scenario for a siege in this system. I have never actually seen one before. It usually just comes down to a war or attrition plus some battlefield control that gets solved within a minute or two. Admittedly, it might takes some meta-ing (GM needs to catch the PC's while they don't have the right spells prepared or after they have used up all the useful spells), but it seems doable.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
lemeres wrote:


oooooo....so you are saying that we can set up a scene from the Tremors movies..........

Only if you can get a player who can channel his inner Kevin Bacon. Hopefully in six connections or less.


Gorillas have hands and thumbs!

Pity in the ole days you could use 1000nd faces to give polar bears thumbs! !


lemeres wrote:

I actually have been through a ton of rules threads about the subject of a weapon using druid.

You see, my argument revolves around the elemental subtype:

Elemental Subtype wrote:

An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

An elemental has the following features.

Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep

The bolded lines hold particular relavence. While a druid never gains the the elemental subtype, I argue that it does provide plenty of evidence that elementals in a humanoid shape can have hands that wield weapons and that they can wear armor. I also argue that larger elementals tend to have humanoid shapes, due to the bestiary descriptions (particularly of earth and fire elementals).

With those assumptions, you could grab a set of leather (or maybe leather lamellar, depending on how you interpret the rules; heck, maybe go for classic dragonscale armor) and a weapon and just treat wildshape as a stat boost and maybe a free, long term enlarge person. And with hands, the ability to speak (elementals have a language), and a long term transformation, you might as well get all your equipment sized for whatever form you wish to stick with. Just wildshape and put it all on like any normal person in the morning

Looking at the stats, large earth elemental might be the...


lemeres wrote:

I actually have been through a ton of rules threads about the subject of a weapon using druid.

You see, my argument revolves around the elemental subtype:

Elemental Subtype wrote:

An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water.

An elemental has the following features.

Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep

The bolded lines hold particular relavence. While a druid never gains the the elemental subtype, I argue that it does provide plenty of evidence that elementals in a humanoid shape can have hands that wield weapons and that they can wear armor. I also argue that larger elementals tend to have humanoid shapes, due to the bestiary descriptions (particularly of earth and fire elementals).

With those assumptions, you could grab a set of leather (or maybe leather lamellar, depending on how you interpret the rules; heck, maybe go for classic dragonscale armor) and a weapon and just treat wildshape as a stat boost and maybe a free, long term enlarge person. And with hands, the ability to speak (elementals have a language), and a long term transformation, you might as well get all your equipment sized for whatever form you wish to stick with. Just wildshape and put it all on like any normal person in the morning

Looking at the stats, large earth elemental might be the...

Dm claim that As elemental has slam attack, and in the dnd it was relics as "club like hands...." He can't hold anything - as he got no hands .

But - a large earth elemental can wear a shield , and slam for nice damage at reach .


666bender wrote:

Dm claim that As elemental has slam attack, and in the dnd it was relics as "club like hands...." He can't hold anything - as he got no hands .

But - a large earth elemental can wear a shield , and slam for nice damage at reach .

Yeah...but vampires also get slam attacks. And we have examples of them using weapons in the bestiary.

Plus, as the subtype noted, you can wield whatever you want when you are 'humanoid in shape' (well, anything that isn't simple would have nonproficiency penalties). Part of being humanoid shaped is having hands.


Bad GM. Elementals don't have any fixed shape. A water elemental can take the form of a shark if it wants to. An earth elemental's slam attack can come from any part of its body. The reason you can't critical an elemental is because it doesn't have a fixed anatomy. If you wanted to, you could become a huge hand wielding a massive sword.

Think Sandman from Marvel comics.


LazarX wrote:
Earthglide only covers unworked earth.

Where does it say that?

Universal Monster Rules say "Earth Glide (Ex) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water."
Emphasis mine.


Turkina_B wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Earthglide only covers unworked earth.

Where does it say that?

Universal Monster Rules say "Earth Glide (Ex) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water."
Emphasis mine.

It still provides opportunities for wooden structures to serve as protection. Hope you have Create water prepared, since flame spheres are a major concern.


Pitty there is no real FAQ on the " earth elementals and hands topic"


Justa quick reminder to people looking towards playing a druid

As we all know, armor gets absorbed into you when you wildshape. This does not probibit you from putting on armor post wild shape. Remember that leather armor or "dragonhide chain shirts" are relatively cheap ways to get extra AC on your wild shapes! Just remember to get it custom fit before hand.


I have 4 sets of leather lamaller , it's 4 to armor that cost cheap, have low acp and one can store in bag oh holding .
It's stackable 4 more.

Also my defences are :
Planar wildnshape vs non devil/ or earth elemental and full cover

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