Unbalanced druid power


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Hi all,
May someone please tell me, why druids so overpowered?
I mean at 6th level she gains an ability which is too powerful: the elemental wildform. She can keep the form of an elemental for the duration of 1 hour per level.
Other classes' class abilities can be used only for several rounds. Non of these so strong like an elemental wildform combined Natural Spell feat. The druid can transform herself with a standard action and become protected against poison, stun, bleed, paralysis, sleep, flanking, critical and precision attacks. And can cast spells. And gain the appropriate elemental form's other abilities: fire damage, high speed, fluidic body or strong body. For at least 6 hours. At higher levels the druid can change more times within this 6+ hours period.
Barbarian can rage only for 2 x level + Con mod + 2 rounds. A barbarian, who fights her entire life. Well, at 20th level, with 22 con, the barbaran can rage for 48rnds. Less than 5 minutes... what is 5 minutes in a war?
Cleric's channel is only 3 + Cha mod/day. Ok, it isn't a continous effect. (The sorcerer and wizard have same not continous abilities.)
Monk's ki pool is near to fair, it ends only if she losts the last point. Anyway monk has only 1/2 level + wis mod points. Not so many.
Paladin's Smite Evil. Well, it's continous while the chosen enemy still exist or the end of the day. Quite good, but only against a handful of enemies.
Well, why druids so overpowered? Hmm? :)


Erh... You've highly overestimated the wild shape ability. The wild shape works exactly like written. This means that all the immunities you talked about does not exists, because wild shape mimics beast shape at first, which only gives you the listed stuff and nothing else.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Druid is nearly universally recognized as one of the most powerful classes, but not simply for the wildform ability. Animal companion, good buffs, good summon spells and wildshape (with various feats to improve them) make druids a close second to god wizards, summoners and their like.

Classes aren't balanced. Never were. Get used to it. <g>


Druids are nowhere near as powerful in pathfinder as they were in 3.5...
And they are definitely less powerful than the wizard and might be slightly less powerful than the cleric, but yes... Even in pathfinder the druid is a strong class.


Lifat wrote:

Druids are nowhere near as powerful in pathfinder as they were in 3.5...

And they are definitely less powerful than the wizard and might be slightly less powerful than the cleric, but yes... Even in pathfinder the druid is a strong class.

Hard to say. Druids can get a form of immortality at 5th level. They're still easily more powerful than a Cleric, but still on par with Wizards.


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"Which CoDzilla is more terrifying" hardly matters after a point. I happen to like Clerics more, but it's really a toss-up.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
"Which CoDzilla is more terrifying" hardly matters after a point. I happen to like Clerics more, but it's really a toss-up.

I like Clerics more as well, but I find their martial power incredibly crippled in the change to Pathfinder.

Grand Lodge

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What was the rules question again?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
What was the rules question again?

This does seem like more of a general discussion sort of thing. Maybe Advice or Homebrew if he wants to fix them.

Liberty's Edge

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The one to which the following citations are the answer:

PRD wrote:

At 6th level, a druid can also use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid's wild shape now functions as beast shape II. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape functions as elemental body I.

At 8th level .... functions as elemental body II

At 10th level ... functions as elemental body III.

At 12th level ... functions as elemental body IV.

PRD wrote:


Elemental Body I

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of a Small air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. Elemental abilities based on size, such as burn, vortex, and whirlwind, use the size of the elemental you transform into to determine their effect.

Air elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small air elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 60 feet (perfect), darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to create a whirlwind.

Earth elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small earth elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to earth glide.

Fire elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small fire elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You gain darkvision 60 feet, resist fire 20, vulnerability to cold, and the burn ability.

Water elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small water elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Constitution and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, the ability to create a vortex, and the ability to breathe water.

Elemental Body II

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5

This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Medium air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength and a +5 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +3 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Constitution and a +5 natural armor bonus.

Elemental Body III

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 6

This spell functions as elemental body II, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Large air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +2 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +6 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Elemental Body IV

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 7

This spell functions as elemental body III, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Huge air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.

Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 120 feet (perfect).

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +8 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +8 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 120 feet.

The druid get only what is cited in the spells.

Scavion wrote:
Lifat wrote:

Druids are nowhere near as powerful in pathfinder as they were in 3.5...

And they are definitely less powerful than the wizard and might be slightly less powerful than the cleric, but yes... Even in pathfinder the druid is a strong class.
Hard to say. Druids can get a form of immortality at 5th level. They're still easily more powerful than a Cleric, but still on par with Wizards.

What form of immortality?

If you mean reincarnation, it is a 4th level spell and can only be cast on another person.


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Perhaps he's talking about the reincarnated druid archetype.


EDIT: Damn ninjas!

Seeing as how there's a big misunderstanding of the ability in question, I guess this is the right subforum by accident.

OP, wildshape has changed a lot since 3.5. A druid taking the form of an air elemental at 6th level does this as the spell Elemental Body, and all the benefits that are are these:

Elemental Body I wrote:
Air elemental: If the form you take is that of a Small air elemental, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +2 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 60 feet (perfect), darkvision 60 feet, and the ability to create a whirlwind.

Granted, these are _good_ abilities, especially as a caster druid - +4 AC, +1 init, +2 ranged attacks (though druids have few ranged attacks), 60ft. perfect flying (better than overland flight!) and darkvision are all powerful bonuses.

But it doesn't get anything else, no immunities at all (except as a flying creature it's immune to trip attempts).

Druids are very powerful, but wild shape isn't as strong as you seem to think it is.


And the druid's spell list is inferior to the wizard and the cleric spell lists.
The summon nature's ally spells aren't nearly as good as the summon monster spells because it has less versatility... Granted having the ability to spontaneously convert spells into summons is nice but considering that the summons aren't that strong it isn't that big of a deal.
On top of that, with normal 20-point buy the druid has to decide between being a caster or a combat druid because the druid can no longer wild shape out of bad physical stats.

Not saying that the druid is a bad class, because it isn't, but I am saying that it isn't nearly as powerful as it was in 3.5 (which tbh is a good thing) and they are also less powerful than most people think they are.


Eldon, you're mistaken as to the details of wild shape. The druid does not become an elemental, he simply gains abilities similar to an elemental. They do not gain all the immunities and defenses defined in the monster type. They only gain what is specifically outlined in the Polymorph rules and the particular spell being emulated.

When determining what is gained, first read the rules on Polymorph as it describes the very specific rules of what you don't get and what you lose. Next you read Elemental Body 1 to see limited features are gained from the wildshape. Lastly, you would read Druid Wild Shape rules to learn any additional restrictions.

Sure, they have hours and hours of this. But they do not become the type into which they are shaping, so they do not gain the immunities or resistances unless the spell specifically states they do. A druid in fire elemental form can actually be burned to death; they only get Fire Resistance 20.

Another fun fact: elementals can't talk, so I hope the druid player isn't trying to communicate while in the form of an elemental.

Also, small elementals are pretty weak. I mean, they can scout really well, but that's kind of it.


@Murphy: Where are you getting that elementals can't talk? I can't find that in the rules and if it was true then why would the elemental languages exist? Aquan, Auran, Ignan, Terran?
All the elemental forms are listed with languages and with no restrictions.


MurphysParadox wrote:


Another fun fact: elementals can't talk, so I hope the druid player isn't trying to communicate while in the form of an elemental.

at least some elementals have a language listed. And without the "understand only" some magical beasts have. And the general rule is that if you (your form) can talk you can speak every language you know.


The misconception here (which is a common one) is that changing into a creature also changes your Type/Subtype, which it does not in fact do.

You do not gain any abilities other than what are listed in the spell's description. So no immunity to 20 different things and resistance to 8 others or however Elementals have it.

It also means a Druid in Tiger form or whatever is still susceptible to Dominate Person (but also buff spells like Enlarge...or would be if that stacked with Wild Shape).

Don't get me wrong, Wild Shape is still an awesome ability.

Just not as amazing as you think it is.


Umbranus wrote:
Perhaps he's talking about the reincarnated druid archetype.

I am. It's pretty nuts.

Liberty's Edge

Scavion wrote:
Umbranus wrote:
Perhaps he's talking about the reincarnated druid archetype.
I am. It's pretty nuts.
PRD wrote:
Many Lives (Ex): At 5th level, if a reincarnated druid is killed, she may automatically reincarnate (as the spell) 1 day later. The reincarnated druid appears in a safe location within 1 mile of her previous body. At will for the next 7 days, she can sense the presence of her remains as if using locate object as a spell-like ability. If she is killed during these 7 days, she remains dead and does not reincarnate. The many lives ability does not function ifthe reincarnated druid is slain by a death effect. A reincarnated druid cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected, though she can be reincarnated.

He should hope he will never be killed by a death effect or a undead that turn you in an undead, as he can't be resurrected and reincarnate don't work if you died that way.


Lifat wrote:

@Murphy: Where are you getting that elementals can't talk? I can't find that in the rules and if it was true then why would the elemental languages exist? Aquan, Auran, Ignan, Terran?

All the elemental forms are listed with languages and with no restrictions.

*pokes around in the rules*

*searches some forums*
*tries to remember origin of idea*

Hmm. I believe we used the bit of a druid's wildshape ability which says they cannot speak in animal form with the fact that an elemental lacks the physical mechanisms for normal (non-elemental) languages. Made sense at the time and my (now disbanded) party's druid seemed to think it was reasonable.

However, there's no reason I can find that specifically prevents it, so there you go.


Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
Many Lives (Ex): At 5th level, if a reincarnated druid is killed, she may automatically reincarnate (as the spell) 1 day later. The reincarnated druid appears in a safe location within 1 mile of her previous body. At will for the next 7 days, she can sense the presence of her remains as if using locate object as a spell-like ability. If she is killed during these 7 days, she remains dead and does not reincarnate. The many lives ability does not function ifthe reincarnated druid is slain by a death effect. A reincarnated druid cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected, though she can be reincarnated.
He should hope he will never be killed by a death effect or a undead that turn you in an undead, as he can't be resurrected and reincarnate don't work if you died that way.

Yes, but another Druid could reincarnate him via spell.


Well-well-well, thanks for the responses and advices. Now I see I wasn't proper enough. I've mistaken changing into a form and changing into a type. But I still think that this is more powerful than others. At low level druid gets bonuses almost equally to others, but hours longer, at higher level (from 10th) also gets immunity vs. bleed, critical hits and sneak attacks (and DR5/- from 12th level). No spell or class ability copies this power this long. And don't forget the first wise choice for a shape changer caster is the Natural Spell feat, therefore druid still can't speak but can cast spells.

Liberty's Edge

Cpt. Caboodle wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:
Many Lives (Ex): At 5th level, if a reincarnated druid is killed, she may automatically reincarnate (as the spell) 1 day later. The reincarnated druid appears in a safe location within 1 mile of her previous body. At will for the next 7 days, she can sense the presence of her remains as if using locate object as a spell-like ability. If she is killed during these 7 days, she remains dead and does not reincarnate. The many lives ability does not function ifthe reincarnated druid is slain by a death effect. A reincarnated druid cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected, though she can be reincarnated.
He should hope he will never be killed by a death effect or a undead that turn you in an undead, as he can't be resurrected and reincarnate don't work if you died that way.
Yes, but another Druid could reincarnate him via spell.
PDR wrote:


Reincarnate
...
A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can't be returned to life by this spell.


Eldon RowDragon wrote:
Well-well-well, thanks for the responses and advices. Now I see I wasn't proper enough. I've mistaken changing into a form and changing into a type. But I still think that this is more powerful than others. At low level druid gets bonuses almost equally to others, but hours longer, at higher level (from 10th) also gets immunity vs. bleed, critical hits and sneak attacks (and DR5/- from 12th level). No spell or class ability copies this power this long. And don't forget the first wise choice for a shape changer caster is the Natural Spell feat, therefore druid still can't speak but can cast spells.

They can not normally speak in animal form, but I think there is a feat for that. However they still can not access certain components because it is melded into their form so they still need natural spell. In elemental form they can talk.

As for being wildshaped, until you get wild armor your AC will be low while you are shape changed. You also need an amulet of mighty fist to bypass magic DR or your DPR will suffer. However taking crafting feats will help out a bit.


Would not greater magic fang do just as well as an amulet of mighty fists?

Save the money.

prototype00


wraithstrike wrote:

However they still can not access certain components because it is melded into their form so they still need natural spell. In elemental form they can talk.

As for being wildshaped, until you get wild armor your AC will be low while you are shape changed. You also need an amulet of mighty fist to bypass magic DR or your DPR will suffer. However taking crafting feats will help out a bit.

Although carried items meld with your body when you perform wild shape, you can put things down and pick them up or wear them after you wild shape. So you can pick up a spell component pouch after you turn into an elemental, or you can have your allies help you put on your specially made tiger-shaped armor.

Liberty's Edge

Matthew Downie wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

However they still can not access certain components because it is melded into their form so they still need natural spell. In elemental form they can talk.

As for being wildshaped, until you get wild armor your AC will be low while you are shape changed. You also need an amulet of mighty fist to bypass magic DR or your DPR will suffer. However taking crafting feats will help out a bit.

Although carried items meld with your body when you perform wild shape, you can put things down and pick them up or wear them after you wild shape. So you can pick up a spell component pouch after you turn into an elemental, or you can have your allies help you put on your specially made tiger-shaped armor.

The burn and drench abilities say no for fire and water elemental.

Burned components don't work very well, and several components will be damaged by water.


The greater magic fang has a few drawbacks.

1) if you have (or are) a pouncing velociraptor you need to magic fang yourself up multiple times.

2) The amulet of mighty fists will go through special damage reductions. Magic fang will not.


prototype00 wrote:

Would not greater magic fang do just as well as an amulet of mighty fists?

Save the money.

prototype00

No.

Quote:
This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.

The amulet actually allows you to bypass DR beyond magic if the enhancement bonuses are high enough.


Matthew Downie wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

However they still can not access certain components because it is melded into their form so they still need natural spell. In elemental form they can talk.

As for being wildshaped, until you get wild armor your AC will be low while you are shape changed. You also need an amulet of mighty fist to bypass magic DR or your DPR will suffer. However taking crafting feats will help out a bit.

Although carried items meld with your body when you perform wild shape, you can put things down and pick them up or wear them after you wild shape. So you can pick up a spell component pouch after you turn into an elemental, or you can have your allies help you put on your specially made tiger-shaped armor.

True, but if you change in the middle of combat those are not efficient. Some people stay in one form at higher levels, but if they need to change to another form it is better to have not have to do this.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

However they still can not access certain components because it is melded into their form so they still need natural spell. In elemental form they can talk.

As for being wildshaped, until you get wild armor your AC will be low while you are shape changed. You also need an amulet of mighty fist to bypass magic DR or your DPR will suffer. However taking crafting feats will help out a bit.

Although carried items meld with your body when you perform wild shape, you can put things down and pick them up or wear them after you wild shape. So you can pick up a spell component pouch after you turn into an elemental, or you can have your allies help you put on your specially made tiger-shaped armor.

The burn and drench abilities say no for fire and water elemental.

Burned components don't work very well, and several components will be damaged by water.

Most GM's don't allow the components to be drenched in rain, and while logical being hit by a water elemental has never made anyone wet so it can't really be said to apply. Drench puts out fires as an EX also. That is not the same as drench in a dictionary sense.

As for the fire elemental it depends on whether you only take damage when it hits you or just for touching. From a game point of view the fire damage only takes place upon an successful attack, but that is not logical since fire only needs to touch you to hurt you. The same could be applied for to why the pouch is not harmed. Actually just being within a certain distance of a fire elemental should cause problems if we bring real world physics into it. Being that burn is a special attack, it wont affect the pouch by the rules.

Liberty's Edge

PRD wrote:
Burn (Ex) A creature with the burn special attack deals fire damage in addition to damage dealt on a successful hit in melee. Those affected by the burn ability must also succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire, taking the listed damage for an additional 1d4 rounds at the start of its turn (DC 10 + 1/2 burning creature's racial HD + burning creature's Con modifier). A burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save. Creatures that hit a burning creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the burning creature and must make a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire.

I would rule that something worn by a fire elemental will take damage as someone hitting it.

PRD wrote:


Drench (Ex) The elemental's touch puts out nonmagical flames of Large size or smaller. The creature can dispel magical fire it touches as dispel magic (caster level equals elemental's HD).

Faulty memory here. I thought that it would thoroughly wash you in water with the drench ability.


wraithstrike wrote:

Most GM's don't allow the components to be drenched in rain, and while logical being hit by a water elemental has never made anyone wet so it can't really be said to apply. Drench puts out fires as an EX also. That is not the same as drench in a dictionary sense.

As for the fire elemental it depends on whether you only take damage when it hits you or just for touching. From a game point of view the fire damage only takes place upon an successful attack, but that is not logical since fire only needs to touch you to hurt you. The same could be applied for to why the pouch is not harmed. Actually just being within a certain distance of a fire elemental should cause problems if we bring real world physics into it. Being that burn is a special attack, it wont affect the pouch by the rules.

Just to clarify, you're saying the drench special ability doesn't make anything wet because it doesn't say it does?


Kwauss wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Most GM's don't allow the components to be drenched in rain, and while logical being hit by a water elemental has never made anyone wet so it can't really be said to apply. Drench puts out fires as an EX also. That is not the same as drench in a dictionary sense.

As for the fire elemental it depends on whether you only take damage when it hits you or just for touching. From a game point of view the fire damage only takes place upon an successful attack, but that is not logical since fire only needs to touch you to hurt you. The same could be applied for to why the pouch is not harmed. Actually just being within a certain distance of a fire elemental should cause problems if we bring real world physics into it. Being that burn is a special attack, it wont affect the pouch by the rules.

Just to clarify, you're saying the drench special ability doesn't make anything wet because it doesn't say it does?

I am saying drench has a specific use, and that is all it does by the rules. Drench as an example can't fill your cup with water or turn dirt to mud. All it does is put our fires.

I also thought I was in the rules forum, where I try to avoid "this is how I would do" being mistaken for "this is the rule".

However I see this is a general discussion, but it is still important to note the distinction. :)


Diego Rossi wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Umbranus wrote:
Perhaps he's talking about the reincarnated druid archetype.
I am. It's pretty nuts.
PRD wrote:
Many Lives (Ex): At 5th level, if a reincarnated druid is killed, she may automatically reincarnate (as the spell) 1 day later. The reincarnated druid appears in a safe location within 1 mile of her previous body. At will for the next 7 days, she can sense the presence of her remains as if using locate object as a spell-like ability. If she is killed during these 7 days, she remains dead and does not reincarnate. The many lives ability does not function if the reincarnated druid is slain by a death effect. A reincarnated druid cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected, though she can be reincarnated.
He should hope he will never be killed by a death effect or a undead that turn you in an undead, as he can't be resurrected and reincarnate don't work if you died that way.

Diego I know how it works. Those two qualifiers are very specific. You could go a whole campaign without dealing with undead who make spawn or death effects. Not only that, but the Reincarnated Druid also gets a +4 against Death Effects and has a Strong Fort and Will save. At 20th level and even earlier, he fails your average CR 20 creature's primary death effect on a one with proper gear. Plus Druids can get Deathward.

The odds of getting turned into a spawn are quite low. In all the games I've played I've never seen it happen to a party member. Usually because I'm the one playing a Cleric and a Cleric who doesn't have scrolls of Deathward/prepared it is a Cleric who really wants to deal with expensive restorations.


Scavion wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Umbranus wrote:
Perhaps he's talking about the reincarnated druid archetype.
I am. It's pretty nuts.
PRD wrote:
Many Lives (Ex): At 5th level, if a reincarnated druid is killed, she may automatically reincarnate (as the spell) 1 day later. The reincarnated druid appears in a safe location within 1 mile of her previous body. At will for the next 7 days, she can sense the presence of her remains as if using locate object as a spell-like ability. If she is killed during these 7 days, she remains dead and does not reincarnate. The many lives ability does not function ifthe reincarnated druid is slain by a death effect. A reincarnated druid cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected, though she can be reincarnated.
He should hope he will never be killed by a death effect or a undead that turn you in an undead, as he can't be resurrected and reincarnate don't work if you died that way.
Diego I know how it works. Those two qualifiers are very specific. You could go a whole campaign without dealing with undead or death effects. Not only that, but the Reincarnated Druid also gets a +4 against Death Effects and has a Strong Fort and Will save. At 20th level, he fails your average CR 20 creature's primary death effect on a one with proper gear.

One part you seem to be missing is that reincarnate doesn't automatically bring him back as the same race, which is determined randomly, which can mean that the concepts are limited to ones that aren't disrupted by the potentially perpetual change in physical stats, and they have to deal with the social implications of suddenly becoming an orc or goblin. Add in the negative levels, and there are plenty of reasons for this character to dread dying.


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This is the problem I'm having perpetually with the forum people or PFS people in general. You have an ability whose name implies getting things wet, and has a mechanism that would involve getting things wet, but since 'it doesn't say it does', it doesn't happen. This attitude is more appropriate for a MMORPG or playing 4E than playing a RPG like PF. As a GM, I'm not going to let you put out a campfire using Drench without it looking like you dumped a huge bucket of water on it (and generating mud).

"No wait," says the PFS player, "this book states it puts out fires, not that it makes things wet."

My issue is that if the designers didn't want it to be putting fires out by dropping water all over it, it would be named 'extinguish'. That's applying a modicum of common sense by reading the description of the ability, and in direct conflict with the 'it doesn't say it does' mentality. I'm concerned it's influencing a whole generation of gamers negatively.


Kwauss wrote:

This is the problem I'm having perpetually with the forum people or PFS people in general. You have an ability whose name implies getting things wet, and has a mechanism that would involve getting things wet, but since 'it doesn't say it does', it doesn't happen. This attitude is more appropriate for a MMORPG or playing 4E than playing a RPG like PF. As a GM, I'm not going to let you put out a campfire using Drench without it looking like you dumped a huge bucket of water on it (and generating mud).

"No wait," says the PFS player, "this book states it puts out fires, not that it makes things wet."

My issue is that if the designers didn't want it to be putting fires out by dropping water all over it, it would be named 'extinguish'. That's applying a modicum of common sense by reading the description of the ability, and in direct conflict with the 'it doesn't say it does' mentality. I'm concerned it's influencing a whole generation of gamers negatively.

So you would allow a water elemental (or druid in the form of one) to akt as a source for drinking water?

Or to irrigate a field?


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im inclined to agree with kwauss, sometimes it seems like the acronym RAW really stands for 'here is some bogus shit i can get away with by twisting the crap out of the english language'


sunshadow21 wrote:
Scavion wrote:


Diego I know how it works. Those two qualifiers are very specific. You could go a whole campaign without dealing with undead or death effects. Not only that, but the Reincarnated Druid also gets a +4 against Death Effects and has a Strong Fort and Will save. At 20th level, he fails your average CR 20 creature's primary death effect on a one with proper gear.
One part you seem to be missing is that reincarnate doesn't automatically bring him back as the same race, which is determined randomly, which can mean that the concepts are limited to ones that aren't disrupted by the potentially perpetual change in physical stats, and they have to deal with the social implications of suddenly becoming an orc or goblin. Add in the negative levels, and there are plenty of reasons for this character to dread dying.

Oh no light penalties in exchange for physical immortality. Roleplaying opportunities and 2,000gp of Restorations.

As for general build details, Druids are one of the most versatile classes in the game.

And drum roll please. To change permanently back to whatever race you used to be is a grand total of 1200 gold to purchase a Polymorph Any Object spell to be cast on you.


i wouldnt go as far as making drench into a huge bucket of water, but it should leave things damp at least.

i might allow a water elemental to take some sort of damage (representing it using up its being) to act as drinking water, or to irrigate a field.


Kwauss wrote:

This is the problem I'm having perpetually with the forum people or PFS people in general. You have an ability whose name implies getting things wet, and has a mechanism that would involve getting things wet, but since 'it doesn't say it does', it doesn't happen. This attitude is more appropriate for a MMORPG or playing 4E than playing a RPG like PF. As a GM, I'm not going to let you put out a campfire using Drench without it looking like you dumped a huge bucket of water on it (and generating mud).

"No wait," says the PFS player, "this book states it puts out fires, not that it makes things wet."

My issue is that if the designers didn't want it to be putting fires out by dropping water all over it, it would be named 'extinguish'. That's applying a modicum of common sense by reading the description of the ability, and in direct conflict with the 'it doesn't say it does' mentality. I'm concerned it's influencing a whole generation of gamers negatively.

You are free to have that opinion but many gamers have tried to use their version of common sense and make rulings based on names, and been told they were wrong by the devs who basically said "it does what it says it does". That is just how the rules work. Anything beyond that is up to the GM to allow.


Scavion wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
Scavion wrote:


Diego I know how it works. Those two qualifiers are very specific. You could go a whole campaign without dealing with undead or death effects. Not only that, but the Reincarnated Druid also gets a +4 against Death Effects and has a Strong Fort and Will save. At 20th level, he fails your average CR 20 creature's primary death effect on a one with proper gear.
One part you seem to be missing is that reincarnate doesn't automatically bring him back as the same race, which is determined randomly, which can mean that the concepts are limited to ones that aren't disrupted by the potentially perpetual change in physical stats, and they have to deal with the social implications of suddenly becoming an orc or goblin. Add in the negative levels, and there are plenty of reasons for this character to dread dying.

Oh no light penalties in exchange for physical immortality. Roleplaying opportunities and 2,000gp of Restorations.

As for general build details, Druids are one of the most versatile classes in the game.

And drum roll please. To change permanently back to whatever race you used to be is a grand total of 1200 gold to purchase a Polymorph Any Object spell to be cast on you.

Well, it's not really light penalties. No other raise spells work on the druid, including breath of life. So if the druid drops in the middle of the fight, the cleric cannot bring them back to life. I've seen this almost lead to a TPK. Also, dying in the middle of a dungeon can hamper the party, as they have to wait for their buddy to come back (and the villain goes off and does his thing). Sure a scroll of reincarnate would be a good idea, but remember that if they get killed again in those seven days, they die without coming back on their own. I've seen that happen as well.

So, it is a cool bonus, but not the end-all, be-all of the reincarnation druid.


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Umbranus wrote:
Kwauss wrote:

This is the problem I'm having perpetually with the forum people or PFS people in general. You have an ability whose name implies getting things wet, and has a mechanism that would involve getting things wet, but since 'it doesn't say it does', it doesn't happen. This attitude is more appropriate for a MMORPG or playing 4E than playing a RPG like PF. As a GM, I'm not going to let you put out a campfire using Drench without it looking like you dumped a huge bucket of water on it (and generating mud).

"No wait," says the PFS player, "this book states it puts out fires, not that it makes things wet."

My issue is that if the designers didn't want it to be putting fires out by dropping water all over it, it would be named 'extinguish'. That's applying a modicum of common sense by reading the description of the ability, and in direct conflict with the 'it doesn't say it does' mentality. I'm concerned it's influencing a whole generation of gamers negatively.

So you would allow a water elemental (or druid in the form of one) to akt as a source for drinking water?

Or to irrigate a field?

My singular time playing PFS, the GM wouldn't let me light a torch with a fire elemental, since it cannot do that according to the rules. So I'm inclined to agree with Kwauss. I'm okay with players at the very least, using it to make small amounts of water.


Odraude wrote:

[

Well, it's not really light penalties. No other raise spells work on the druid, including breath of life. So if the druid drops in the middle of the fight, the cleric cannot bring them back to life. I've seen this almost lead to a TPK.

Eh? It says the Druid cannot be Raised or Resurrected, not can't be Breath of Lifed (and presumably True Resurrected).


Rynjin wrote:
Odraude wrote:

[

Well, it's not really light penalties. No other raise spells work on the druid, including breath of life. So if the druid drops in the middle of the fight, the cleric cannot bring them back to life. I've seen this almost lead to a TPK.
Eh? It says the Druid cannot be Raised or Resurrected, not can't be Breath of Lifed (and presumably True Resurrected).

Generally, when it calls out specific spells that may or may not work, it always italicizes them. In this case, it is talking about raising the dead in general, since resurrected and raise dead aren't italicized as spells. So that's what led to the GM's decision that only reincarnate and similar reincarnation spells work and we all agreed. Of course, the healing aspect of Breath of Life would work still.

Considering it's a once a week free auto-rez, that's still pretty good.


I'd say Breath of Life still works as it lacks "Functions like Raise Dead" phrase that resurrection and true resurrection do.


That's the thing, the reincarnated druid doesn't call out the specific spells raise dead and resurrection as unusable. It currently says:

Quote:
A reincarnated druid cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected, though she can be reincarnated.

How we interpreted it due to Paizo's standard formatting is that it is talking about the act of raising the dead, not the spell raise dead. As per their formatting, if they were calling out the spells, I feel it would say something like this:

Quote:
A reincarnated druid cannot be brought back to life through raise dead or resurrection, though reincarnate can bring a druid back to life.

That's our interpretation of it anyways. I could see how we can get both honestly.


Odraude wrote:
My singular time playing PFS, the GM wouldn't let me light a torch with a fire elemental, since it cannot do that according to the rules. So I'm inclined to agree with Kwauss. I'm okay with players at the very least, using it to make small amounts of water.

Lighting the torch I could see working as long as the elemental wasn't trying to resist your effort, getting water, not so much, or at least not enough to be useful for anything in mechanical terms unless you are dealing with large or larger elementals. It's not normal water or fire for elementals, it's the equivalent of somebody trying to extract blood or sweat from a human or poke at the nervous system. Small amounts of disturbance may be tolerated, but doing it too much without the express consent and permission of the elemental is not likely going to garner enough benefits to be worth it.


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I think you're mistaking what an elemental is. It's made up of water as it's being; it's not a continuous fountain that produces water. If it left everything wet, it would slowly (or quickly depending on the amounts left) be killing itself. It doesn't leave it's body parts on other things any more than anything else does. So unless that druid in human form is leaving his flesh everywhere every time he touches something, I don't know why you're assuming he would in elemental form...

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