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A discussion occurred here regarding whether or not swarms can "spread out" or if they're required to stay in a 10x10' cube/square. People here have generally played that they are allowed to form a single contiguous component, but RAW seems ambiguous:
"A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side"
"Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares."
The first block tends to indicate that they have to occupy a 10 foot space (minus squeezing), the second talks about larger swarms, and then mentions "The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable". I'm surmising that "large", in this context refers to "larger" from the previous sentence, however, it could also be referring to size Large. Typically used in this fashion, though, one would expect "Large" to be capitalized, which it is not.
Does anyone know anything more about this or have a more definitive verdict? I think it's safe to say that if they are allowed to spread out, they're under no obligation to remain contiguous (though they *usually* will).
As you point out, it's been debated before. There has been no clarification that I am aware of. Even in my local PFS area GMs rule it differently.
Both sides can explain their POV effectively enough. I just chalk it up to table variance, now.
here you go...
Swarms again..
I think this thread covers most of it...
The important parts...
From the PRD:
Swarm Subtype: A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature. A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures. In order to attack, it moves into an opponent's space, which provokes an attack of opportunity. It can occupy the same space as a creature of any size, since it crawls all over its prey. A swarm can move through squares occupied by enemies and vice versa without impediment, although the swarm provokes an attack of opportunity if it does so. A swarm can move through cracks or holes large enough for its component creatures.
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
"Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms..." these larger swarms (composed of multiple single swarms - each of which "...occupies a square ...or a cube ...10 feet on a side,"... ) ... are [b]"completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares"[b].
If a single swarm is shapeable, then it would follow that it would not have to remain in contiguous squares. Meaning, if we can shape it into a line four (5') squares long - then we could brake those squares up and move them in NON-contiguous squares.
It is only when we take the line of the description of swarm "... The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares...." out of context - (and ignore the word "usually") ... that we can assume that a single swarm is shapeable...
If taken with the line just before it in the paragraph ...
"Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm ..." ...
we will see that the area occupied by multiple single swarms (i.e. a large swarm).. is completely shapeable...
tivadar27 wrote: A discussion occurred here regarding whether or not swarms can "spread out" or if they're required to stay in a 10x10' cube/square. People here have generally played that they are allowed to form a single contiguous component, but RAW seems ambiguous:
"A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side"
"Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares."
The first block tends to indicate that they have to occupy a 10 foot space (minus squeezing), the second talks about larger swarms, and then mentions "The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable". I'm surmising that "large", in this context refers to "larger" from the previous sentence, however, it could also be referring to size Large. Typically used in this fashion, though, one would expect "Large" to be capitalized, which it is not.
Does anyone know anything more about this or have a more definitive verdict? I think it's safe to say that if they are allowed to spread out, they're under no obligation to remain contiguous (though they *usually* will).
bolding mine:
"...usually remains in contiguous squares." would imply that it does not ALWAYS remain in contiguous squares. If the sentence were talking about a normal swarm - one that occupies four 5' squares - when would it NOT remain in contiguous squares? This would mean that we could split up a swarm into 4 pieces and have them move in different directions and remain apart?
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned as far a I saw, is that swarms which climb or fly would be likely to spread out in three dimensions when otherwise constricted, rather than necessarily occupying more grid-squares. A swarm of spiders restricted to a 5' corridor would not extend 20' along the corridor floor, but more likely 10' along the floor and 2.5' up each adjacent wall. A flying swarm might likewise expand in an upward direction, given space to do so, rather than horizontally. I think whatever shape keeps the members of the swarm in the closest proximity possible to each other would be the shape the swarm tended to take, even in the face of hunger, because swarms act as a single entity (otherwise, every hungry swarm would just immediately disperse when faced with multiple enemies). Something to consider if you allow swarms to re-shape themselves.
Thanks Nosig, I had done a preliminary search and hadn't spotted your previous answer, sorry for that. That's my reading of it too, that "large" refers to "larger". As Nefreet points out, it's unfortunately ambiguous, and I wouldn't fault a GM for ruling the other way. Still, for my tables, I'll stick with what I believe is RAI where RAW is ambiguous, and have my swarms stick to a square/cube.
tivadar27 wrote: Thanks Nosig, I had done a preliminary search and hadn't spotted your previous answer, sorry for that. That's my reading of it too, that "large" refers to "larger". As Nefreet points out, it's unfortunately ambiguous, and I wouldn't fault a GM for ruling the other way. Still, for my tables, I'll stick with what I believe is RAI where RAW is ambiguous, and have my swarms stick to a square/cube. yeah... thanks!
the scary one is the judge who "stacks" swarms. So two (or more) "normal" swarms overlapping a PC - each doing thier damage and each needing saves against.
I kind of worry about a judge like that "discovering" that he can split the swarm into 4 smaller square and then stacking those on a PC. So the swarm would then do 4 times as much damage in a round...
With the way larger swarms work - they don't/can't overlap. They "merge" to form a larger mass, taking up more than one 10' square/cube.
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