I have a buddy who wants to run a game starting tomorrow night and I have been wracking my brain trying to figure out how to make this work properly. Unfortunately he does not allow gunslingers which would make this fairly easy.
Idea: Grammaton Cleric (equilibrium, movie)
No guns so hand xbows
I think it is best to go ranger at the start, he is willing to do a weapon proficiency swap if I can make it fit in my back story so that I can use the hand xbow but not a regular bow and play human.
The problem I am running into is that hand xbows are complete crap compared to other weapons composite isn't an option I have seen and you can't add str or dex to the damage at any point that I know of. A couple levels in being able to afford repeating weapons wouldn't be too bad but I always get stuck on the crapy damage scaling. At the start I would be on par with the party but I would quickly be left behind and when I am there to be a dps/evasion tank I wouldn't be very useful I don't think.
Any ideas? I have never gone down the hand xbow route before for anything except poison delivery
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Quick Draw and thrown weapons. Go ranger with two-weapon style and pump your str with dex secondary. Then use your regular feats to take the ranged feat chains. Grab a couple returning daggers and go to town.
Edit: also, need to plan for something that gives you blindsense. I wouldn't be surprised if there's something in UE somewhere.
are you saying that it can't be done efficiently with hand crossbows? I was trying not to go for the rogue/dagger ranger type build here.
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are you saying that it can't be done efficiently with hand crossbows? I was trying not to go for the rogue/dagger ranger type build here.
Ill save you time, nothing can be done effeciently using crossbows. Unfortunate truth of pathfinder. I'd agree that two daggers (and an eventual blinkback belt) is a good choice.
Thanks for the input. Unfortunate truth is right... Why should a gun be able to add a dex bonus into the damage and not a crossbow? it is the same basic concept of potential energy.
Eh, not sure I agree that nothing can be done efficiently with crossbows. I think a pre-loaded heavy crossbow can be a great first attack. The other thing crossbow users forget a lot is that they can lie prone while exchanging missile fire to improve AC -- a tactic I've used to great effect even without Rapid Reload.
Back to the OP though: the Grammaton style mixes heavy unarmed combat with missile fire exchange. Will your character be needing some unarmed combat feats as well, or are you skipping that part?
Thanks for the input. Unfortunate truth is right... Why should a gun be able to add a dex bonus into the damage and not a crossbow? it is the same basic concept of potential energy.
To be fair... doing so is a class feature, not a feature of the weapons themselves. Also, firearms are complicated weapons compared to crossbows.
That all said, it's time to work with the DM (assuming you aren't the DM). This is the sort of thing that isn't unreasonable to house-rule. While the official rules definitely make some weapons better than others, your table doesn't have to be that way.
Really, the gun-kata type actions aren't unreasonable at the table. You can create light repeating hand-crossbows, and you can just let your player have them. It makes more sense to apply Strength to damage (like a bow) than Dex, frankly, so maybe invent a feat for his specific character, making the requirements "be YOU". Let him take feats allowing him to improvise the crossbows as bludgeoning weapons and you're mostly there. Make fuse Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot.
If you want an underpowered concept to be equivalent to an optimized set of choices, it's just a matter of the DM making it so.
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Sohei with weapon training in crossbows is going to be the best option, but it still isn't very good.
Alternately, if you gm will let you use zen archer with hand crossbows that will work as well. Either way, you have two feat taxes in rapid reload and crossbow mastery that a standard archer will never have.
You know how, in reality, crossbows quickly filled in the areas where bows were before, simply because they were incredibly effective and didn't require years of training? Nevermind being able to fire prone and reload behind cover?
Ironically, 3.5 and Pathfinder did a great job of replicating this. Crossbows are an EXCELLENT weapon... for NPC's. In fact, unless they are Elven in nature, most can arguably tote around Crossbows like nobodies business, and getting a +8 bonus to AC (firing from cover while prone) makes them somewhat survivable... kind of like what really happened.
The game being made for PC's, who are effectively Greek heroes on steroids, means crossbows get left behind.
The Grammaton Cleric is VERY MUCH a Gunslinger, perhaps even Gunslinger/Monk. Your best option would be to attempt to convince him to let you use the Gunslinger, but substitute XBows instead of guns. A "Crossbowslinger", as it were. Point out to him that it will not be as cheesy as a usual Gunslinger as you don't have that whole 'first range increment is a touch attack' thing going on. See if he'll let you substitute Hand Crossbows for Pistols, and you're good to go. If he or she is REALLY generous, ask him if he'll allow you to use Pistol Whip without consuming a Grit point if you get rid of the trip shenanigans (sweeten it by changing it to require that you have at least 1 in your pool). Blam. You'd still need to invest in Rapid Reload and Two-Weapon Fighting and all that yourself, but this would give you a major leg up on what you want to do.
If not, Imbicatus's suggestion is really good too, and likely to not irritate your GM with any 'gun taint' in his game.
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You could pull it off with inquistor. Focus on the repeating crossbows and unarmed combat. Use the tactics subdomain for initiative wins. Stern gaze plus serpent style means hat you have all the armor class in the world. And at level 8 you pop with the weapon master domain ability. I see two builds I could do. I'll post them in a bit.
I worked out a deal with the DM. He created a feat with a base level 2 dex 14 point blank and precise shot prerequisit that will allow me to add my dex to the damage so that the weapon scales as I become stronger.
As far as the progression goes I will be doing ranger - fighter - monk -ffighter - monk- ranger (6-9) build. The fighter gives me extra feats and between that and monk I will be able to stack up my unarmed fighting requirements fairly well for the Grammaton style I think.
Thank you for all the input I really wish I could have done it with the gunslinger but I had the character idea stuck in my head for too long with no games running not to try it out at all costs.
If you don't mind me asking, why take levels in both fighter and ranger? Will free ranger style feats not cover what you need?
Inquisitor would fit the flavor best. Just need to solidify rules for pistol whipping with a hand crossbow.. :-)
See if your GM will approve this:
Some monks seek to become one with another weapon entirely—the gun. The zen gunslinger takes a weapon most other monks eschew and seeks perfection in the pull of a trigger, the haze of a gun's smoke, and the flight of a bullet fired true.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Zen gunslingers are proficient with firearms in addition to their normal weapon proficiencies.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a zen gunslinger can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a gun (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen gunslinger's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen gunslinger cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his gun.
Bonus Feats: A zen gunslinger's bonus feats must be taken from the following list: Combat Reflexes, Deflect bullets, Dodge, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list: Focused Shot*, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mobility, and Parting Shot*. At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list: Improved Critical, Pinpoint Targeting, Shot on the Run, and Snatch bullets. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them. These feats replace the monk's normal bonus feats.
Perfect Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a zen gunslinger gains Perfect Strike as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A zen gunslinger can use Perfect Strike with any gun. At 10th level, the monk can roll his attack roll three times and take the highest result. If one of these rolls is a critical threat, the monk must choose one of his other two rolls to use as his confirmation roll. This ability replaces Stunning Fist.
Way of the gun (Ex): At 2nd level, a zen gunslinger gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat with one type of gun. At 6th level, the monk gains Weapon Specialization with the same weapon as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces evasion.
Zen gunslinger (Ex): At 3rd level, a zen gunslinger may use his Wisdom modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier on ranged attack rolls when using a gun. This ability replaces maneuver training.
Point Blank Master (Ex): At 3rd level, a zen gunslinger gains Point Blank Master* as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces still mind.
Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, in addition to the normal abilities of his ki pool, a zen gunslinger may spend 1 point from his ki pool to increase the range increment for his gun by 50 feet for 1 round.
Ki bullets (Su): At 5th level, a zen gunslinger may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of bullets he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen gunslinger's short gun normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his bullets deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces purity of body.
Reflexive pistolwhip (Ex): At 9th level, a zen gunslinger can make attacks of opportunity with blow from the butt of his gun. The monk still threatens squares he could reach with unarmed strikes, and can still only make one attack of opportunity per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes). This ability replaces improved evasion.
Trick Shot (Su): At 11th level, a zen gunslinger may hit targets that he might otherwise miss. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, the zen gunslinger can ignore concealment. By spending 2 points, he can ignore total concealment or cover. By spending 3 points, he can ignore total cover, even firing bullets around corners. The bullet must still be able to reach the target; a target inside a closed building with no open doors or windows cannot be attacked. These effects last for 1 round. This ability replaces diamond body.
Ki Focus gun (Su): At 17th level, as long as he has at least 1 point of ki in his ki pool, a zen gunslinger may treat bullets fired from his gun as if they were ki focus weapons, allowing him to use his special ki attacks as if his bullets were unarmed attacks. This ability replaces tongue of the sun and moon.
Only downside to this is you'd need revolvers to flury effectively at higher levels...
I do agree, though, the Inquisitor is the best for the feel of a grammaton cleric...
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I don't agree on the inquisitor as the best flavor fit. In one sense, they are inquisitors rooting out heresy(sense offenders), and the fluff of inquisitors fits the fluff of the Grammaton Cleric perfectly. However, the spellcasting and judgments really don't fit the gun kata and martial arts abilities shown in the film.
Zen Archer or Sohei with guns is the best match to the abilities of the Grammaton Cleric, with the fluff handwaved.
*Slowly backs out of the thread*
The fighter levels help with the feats that I need to stack up and I am going to be focused on the unarmed arch.
The inquisitor class was never something I really was interested in. I generally play rogue or ninja but after the last game where we were playing Mythic characters I realized I have to play something else for a change (<5% miss chance criting all the time, all 1-3 on damage dice were treated as max damage... It just got over powered too quickly).
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I smiled when I saw this title. :)
I was hoping that for a Grammaton Cleric we could have skipped the step where we tell him how to make, in fact, that which is not a Grammaton Cleric.
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If you can find a god with favoured weapon hand crossbow then a Warpriest might be OK. You can take wf: unarmed strike for scaling damage with your hands too or Catch Off Guard to use your crossbow as a bludgeoning weapon.
I'd see if you can get Zen Archer allowed with crossbow though - just fits so well.
Crossbows are super feat intensive to make work half as well as bows sadly with having to reload.
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If you can find a god with favoured weapon hand crossbow then a Warpriest might be OK.
Deity Favored weapon is irrelevant for a warpriest. Sacred weapon bonuses apply to any weapon you have weapon focus in.
The only reason you would need a favored weapon is if you were a cleric/monk using crusader's flurry.
Well for the record there is a fix to xbow reloading. And that is ghostly reload or something along those lines. (At work now or I would post the link).
And for the purpose of this character I am allowed to use the hand crossbow as a monk weapon sooo flurry is going to happen. Unfortunately I really wish I could have done this with a gun but it is still fun. I will try to remember to post the final build after we play it out so that you can see how it went; but it is apparent that I will not be the top dps in the party made of a rogue, ninja, and the class dipped punchy pants cleric thing that I will end up being.