Strangler feat and the garrotte


Advice

Liberty's Edge

Hi all!

I have a player who is wanting to take the strangler feat(see below) and wants to use a garrotte as his weapon of choice.

It seems the feat says yes, while the weapons says no.
More or less the gist is, the feat allows you to do sneak attack damage if you make a successful cmb attack. But the weapon says you can't use sneak attack damage with it.

Which one is correct? From the d20pfsrd.com below.

Quote:

Strangler (Combat)

Throttling the life out of enemies is second nature to you.

Prerequisite: Dex 13, sneak attack +1d6, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: Whenever you successfully maintain a grapple and choose to deal damage, you can spend a swift action to deal your sneak attack damage to the creature you are grappling.

Quote:

Garrote

A garrote is a length of wire or thin rope with wooden handles at both ends. The wire is placed across a victim's throat and crossed behind the neck; when the handles are pulled tight, the garrote strangles him.

Description: In order for you to use a garrote, your opponent must be helpless or unaware of you. You must make a grapple check (though you avoid the –4 penalty for not having two hands free) to successfully begin garroting your opponent. Sneak attack damage does not apply to a garrote. Your garroted opponent must make a concentration check (DC 20 + your CMB + level of the spell he’s casting) to cast a spell with a verbal component, use a command word item, or use any magic requiring speech. You gain the following additional option when grappling with a garrote.

Choke: You cut off your target’s air supply so he has to hold his breath (see Suffocation, and the Swim skill for additional information). Any round you do not maintain the choke, your opponent can take a breath and restart when he has to begin making Constitution checks.

Weapon Feature(s): choke


I would say the weapon is right, as the Strangler feat is implying that you're strangling someone with your bare hands, and the weapon specifically states that you can't deal sneak attack damage with it (Ostensibly because you're already attacking a vital area, the throat.)

Naturally, as GM, you're free to remove the line on garotte that says you can't sneak attack with it.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks, Ashram. You basically stated what I was thinking.

Unless there's a better reason, I'm gonna favor the weapon description. Because looking at the strangler feat, I too got the impression that would be bare handed. A choke holder, or forearm wrap. Something other than a weapon.

Thanks again.


Yeah, I agree. The feat doesn't really include the use of a weapon.

It's basically saying if you grapple a creature (succeeding on the initial grapple isn't maintaining) and then on the next round you check to see if you maintian the grapple. If the check to maintain is sucessful you can choose to deal damage per grapple rules. If you choose to deal damage you can use a unarmed strike, natural attack, light or one-handed weapon. Assuming you have an weapon available to deal damage, you can as a swift action allow yourself to deal sneak attack damage. Normally you couldn't sneak attack because the opponent isn't denied their dex or flat-footed from the grappled condition (they only have a penalty to dex which doesn't qualify to allow sneak attack).

This feat basically allows you a specific set of conditions to get sneak attack when normally you wouldn't get it. It doesn't not change anything about a garrote, which does not allow sneak attack.

It may not be what he wants, but tell him to drop the garrote, grab a dagger, and he'll be better off.


I'm going to go against the grain here. Is there anything overpowered about him spending the feat to allow him to do sneak attacks with the garrote? It seems like he is wanting to play a concept that makes some sense, it doesn't break the game or make him super op, and it's a flavorful idea. I disagree with the "hey, if you want to rogue you have to do it with a dagger" approach.

As for by interpretation of the rules, you are correct but I come from a school of thought that you should say yes unless you have a good reason to say no.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks HowForuitous, that is what I was struggling with.

Concept-wise, it fits hand and hand in the idea of being a sneaking goblin killing scout. We worked it out though. He raised the question, poked at me to make ruling, and by the time we actually got together at the table to discuss it he had completely rewritten his character concept.

So... yeah.


I am in favor of making them stack, following two different reasoning.

you can see it this way:
The ruling in the weapon description says that you do not deal sneak attack while garroting, but then you acquiring the feat you gain the ability to deliver also the sneak attack damage.
Like Silent Spell, you can't cast spells without talking, but with the feat you learn how to do it.

or you can choose to see this other way:
garroting somebody requires a grapple check, and in every respect, the situation the two opponents find them in is like an unarmed grappling one. Now you can deal the garrote damage, plus as a swift action you can deal the sneak attack damage, is some other way. The feat doesn't actually say you need to strangle with your bare hands, and you do not need your hands free. For all we know a Strangler could use his feet.


From an experience-driven perspective, I'd go with Simon's view.

I've got 20+ years of various martial arts behind me, including some grappling. Getting strangled with a cord, your shirt, a stick, or some odd doohickey someone's using as a watchband usually produces better results than even a good, unarmed, rear choke. A wire garrote also cuts while the other methods don't.

Add the "dan bong" weapon bonuses to the grapple as well. When you've got a loop of cord wrapped around someone's limb or neck its harder for them to get away, and the handles of the garrote can be used as dan bong, too.

Nothing about this seems overpowered, its got flavor, and your player will enjoy strangling the hell out of people. Where's the down side?

He might want to look into the equipment tricks you can pull off with rope while he's at it, and getting the "Rope Master" rogue talent to better hogtie people in a hurry.

edit: Annnd I just read he rewrote his character. Oh, well!

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