Never played a martial, want to dual shield


Advice

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This is one of those vilified Dual Shielding build threads.

Assumptions made:


  • You can dual wield shields
  • You can upgrade a shield as a +10 spikey weapon and +10 shield
  • With Shield Master you don’t suffer the TWF penalties for either shield since they’re also a weapon
  • Shield enchantments and materials overcome DR
  • Most feats/items are ok as long as they're linkable and pre-approved by DM

Anyway, onto the good stuff.

Basic character backstory is (he’s a/they are) craftsman from a clan of (custom race) people that are born two headed and their quest is to find some *REDACTED* material to create the most powerful suit of armor known to man and must adventure to find it. Kilt wearing, armored Acrofatic is the idea I’m going for.

I don’t really play martials all that much, so this build is really throwing me for a loop. Traits/feat order/advice/optimization would be appreciated. Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Weapon Finesse (applies to all light weapons) were changed to “combat options” by our DM, so just assume we have those feats as freebies. Probably won’t be using power attack until I get Shield Mastery though. I’m open to changing race, archetype, class, etc. but the basic idea of a strong but agile armorsmith making enemies weep has to be covered. Planning on Fighter (Brawler) using two heavy shields, to save money instead of switching out, even before level 11 and going ahead slapping on a +1 weapon enchantment to each of them since I’ll need at least that for the extra to hit and damage until the shield enchant bonus due to Shield Mastery kicks in. I’d like to fit Spiked Destroyer into the build somewhere but I’m just kinda at a loss already where things should go, especially the later levels.

The other characters on team are a Swordlord, a monk/soul knife, Dragon Disciple, summoner, and “healer” witch.

I’ve gone through several threads talking about dual shielding and most focus on non-lethal/damage and DPR. I want to deal enough damage to not suffer from “Monk Syndrome” while also being able to mechanically role-play protecting allies. As such I want him to take the two crafting feats, the Bodyguard feat combined with Benevolent armor, have one of the shields be Runeforged with the Symbiotic attunement. Since Benevolent is only a 2k cost, if need be Bodyguard can be swapped out at late levels if the bonus 6-7 to AC wouldn’t really be affecting hitting difficulty of enemies ‘though the benefit would need to be worth it. I’m not really worried about GTWF even though I’ll qualify for it because adding Speed to a shield would be simple enough (or Boots of Speed) and I’m feat starved as is.

I think I’ll be starting at level 8 or 9, so let’s just assume 9. Custom Race +2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha. 27 point buy, 46k WBL + 25% from crafting feats = 59800 starting gold.

My working build and some items I’m thinking about

Str 24 (18+2 racial+2 level+2 Belt of Physical Might)
Dex 16 (14+2 Belt of Physical Might)
Con 12
Int 14 (12+2 racial)
Wis 16 (14+2 Headband of Wisdom)
Cha 5 (7-2 racial)

Celestial Armor or Celestial Plate Armor with the added properties of Benevolent and Longstrider (like the Boots of Striding and Springing to overcome the -10ms) for 5000gp.

Combine that with Celestial Shield so I can maneuver in an emergency.

+Str/Dex belt
If I go a Fighter archetype that does have Weapon Training I’d be more inclined to use Duelist Gloves.

Ioun stone + Wayfinder for +2 CMB? Or just not really worry about Bull Rush and just use the freebie control?

More?

Italics = Feats I’d really like to keep (movement around possible)
Bold = I think that’s the optimal place for those feats
Strikethrough = Are these feats worth it? Two Weapon Rend doesn’t get bonuses from Power Attack or any other bonus, so damage reduction hurts it a lot. Double Slice is +4 dmg on offhands when I have 26 Str. G. Bull Rush just seems like it wouldn’t be used nearly enough unless combined with overrun then bull rushing to your team on the next turn after Pin Down-ing them to their square.

1) (Combat Exp./P.Att.) (Race) TWF, (Lvl1) Imp. Bull Rush, (Com) Shield Focus
2) Weapon Focus (Shield)
3) Combat Reflexes
4) Bodyguard
5) Master Craftsman
6) Shield Slam
7) Craft Magical Arms and Armor
8) ITWF
9) Double Slice
10) G. Bull Rush
11) Shield Mastery
12) Pin Down
13) (Brawler) Stand Still, G. Weapon Focus (Shield)
14) Bashing Finish
15) Shield Specialization
16) G. Shield Specialization
17) Missile Shield
18) G. Shield Focus
19) Iron Will
20) Improved Initiative

I just fear I won't be enough of a threat to make armor matter.

This might be an allowed feat by my DM, pending approval. It would be much better than G. Shield Focus, but there’s just not enough feats as is anyway lol.

Two Shield Fighting (Combat) wrote:


You make a good offense out of a great defense.
Prerequisite: Shield proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding two shields, apply the shield bonus of both shields to your AC. If both shields provide an enhancement bonus to AC, apply the higher enhancement bonuses in full as the primary shield and +1 enhancement bonus for the off-hand shield.

Link

The way I’m reading this feat, if I have two +4 Heavy Steel Shields, I would add +2 from each shield, +4 from one shield’s enchantment bonus, and +1 enchantment bonus from the second shield, all of this stacking to a +9 instead of the normal +6 from just being able to have one in slot. This would stack with Shield Focus and what not. Is this how you would interpret this feat?

Thanks in advance for ideas! Hopefully I provided some as well.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm not sure if you need any more ideas. You seem to have an excellent grasp of the relevant tactics, and especially with that homebrew feat, you should be quite effective.

I also have a dual-shielder and he uses similar tactics.


I appreciate the vote of confidence, Morphling. =)

However, item selection, best order of feats, and useful traits are what I'm struggling with. Since I want to defend, TWF shields, and craft, I want to not take any sub-optimal damage feats so as to not fall extremely far behind the Swordlord and Monk/Soulknife. After getting to a +4 or +5 shield bonus, would putting speed on one of my shields be worth it?

Also archetype. Since there's no archer in my group, would it be better to just go normal fighter for the weapon training in bows as a second group? Duelist Gloves would end up with +7/+7 on attacks on my main close group instead of +5/+7 as well as +6/+6 for bows. However, the bonus to CMB/CMD battlefield control the Brawler archetype provides is substantial.

Guess we can't have everything lol.


You seem to be missing a very important feat, Improved Shield Bash.

I'm not sure Bashing finish will do a whole lot for you, since you will only be at 19-20 crit range at best (assuming Keen Shield Spikes)


Ahh, whoops, that's what is supposed to be there at level 1! However, our DM is contemplating just using all the suggestions from this link since we're already using some of them. Powerful Maneuvers would include shield bash and I think grapple or reposition. But if not, I'd just have Imp. Shield Bash instead of Imp. Bull Rush.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Is it just me, or does it seem inherently silly to go into battle with twin shields but no weapon?

Yes, I know, it's fantasy, and arguing from realism is not an option. But still. Dual wielding *shields*???


True, it is silly, but entirely legal and helps play into the "armored offense" idea I had in mind. If you can swing a sword and bash with a shield, why can't you just bash with two shields?


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Can't argue with the numbers either, its the best weapon to dual wield.

prototype00


After level 11 that is. Before level 11, you're dealing about half as much damage or less compared to another TWF.


Level 6 for Rangers, which is the class I would choose for this build.

prototype00


I was thinking about it, but I couldn't really add in Bodyguard and the two crafting feats, or I just wasn't seeing it. The Brawler archetype is very nice for rooting enemies to a spot with Stand Still and Pin Down. Is there a feat progression you would suggest for a ranger? Never played one. I would like to start out the game with Shield Mastery though, so I'm more than willing to consider.


When is the game kicking off? Slayer is coming out next month and can match a fighter for number of feats while still having access to Ranger Combat Styles for early access to feats. Best of both worlds. Have you considered dual wielding Klars? I think its more thematic for weaponized shields and gives you better TWF penalties until you pick up the feats to ignore that part.


From what I understand, Ranger is the best choice for a Dual Shielder, since they can get Shield Mastery at Level 6. You'd be at excellent effectiveness for 3/4s of your career, not 1/2.


Mmmm, haven't heard of Slayer, and it doesn't sound like it would fit the "defending" theme very well. But do you have a link to look at it anyway? Sounds pretty awesome. I'm playing a level 8 Magus in the campaign right now, but I was wanting to switch out characters. The character's going to be a metalworker, so I don't think Klar would work thematically.

The character would be starting out around level 8 or 9, so I'd be able to establish the "defending" trope for a few levels then be able to dish out some damage myself. Still, if anyone has a ranger build that fits the bill, I'd love to see it!


I present to you:

Batter McShieldbash!

and

Batter Mcshieldbash 2: I know how the rules work, really!

9d6 damage per hit at 12th level. Enemy is a quivering frightened mess.

prototype00


Mmmm, the 6 levels of ranger to get access to Shield Master early would be nice, and I'd only be sacrificing one from my build for it. Favored enemies would be nice, but losing out on some levels of "weapon training" and the CMB/D bonuses isn't scintillating either. Wouldn't qualify for Pin Down until level 17 (6 Ranger, 11 Fighter) which is a huge detractor. The main question is, is eating the -4/-4 for 5 extra levels worth the later benefits/feats and are those benefits offset by the Ranger abilities I'd gain (Such as Lead Blades)?

I'm still looking for some advice on better feat progression. It just seems like having Iron Will and Imp. Initiative at the very end doesn't do much. Other feat suggestions are also welcome!

Sczarni

I have been thinking about shield bashers for a while, and I was thinking about a Large Heavy Spiked Bashing shield. With Enlarge Person and Lead Blades you're looking at Colossal damage for the shield, which is kind of crazy. Combine with Vital Striking goodness and you're now a bulldozer.


Shield spikes and the Bashing enchantment dont stack by RAI.

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James Jacobs wrote:
Karui Kage wrote:
They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.

Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.

It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.

Now BBT comes with his 'Shields are weapons'..


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Nah I've got this one for him

Shields are weapons. They're listed in the Weapons section of the Core Rulebook. To suggest otherwise would be to flagrantly misread the text of the book.

Also interestingly to note, there is only the nebulous "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right." passage to suggest that you may be able to enchant the shield spikes. Otherwise, Shield Spikes are not listed as a weapon. They're listed as "Spiked Steel Shield." Which implies you have to enchant the shield and spikes as a whole or you have to enhance the entire shield twice for different functions. But enchanting JUST the spikes is a nonsensical operation as "Shield Spikes" do not exist as a weapon.

Which ergo means that they should be compatible.


I know this is a fantasy game, but please direct me to any example of a duel shield wielder. Any book, cartoon, movie...maybe even a picture of someone doing it in live roleplay. Seriously the only example I've ever seen is someone trying to munchkin the rules in pathfinder doing it. But...find an example of Conan or King Arthur doing it and I will be surprised.


Sure, dude dual wielding shields.


Here's a video game where you can do it.


Dang...the real life tiger shields look pretty lame, but the video game example looked butch, not sure anyone could lift those two towers, but at least it is an example of fantasy duel shields. Still feel it's just cheese in pathfinder, but now at least somehow valid cheese.


Rhaleroad wrote:
Dang...the real life tiger shields look pretty lame, but the video game example looked butch, not sure anyone could lift those two towers, but at least it is an example of fantasy duel shields. Still feel it's just cheese in pathfinder, but now at least somehow valid cheese.

To be fair, the Chosen Undead in Dark Souls is manly as hell. Here's a shot of my dude. I dual wield "greathammers". Though they're really just huge clubs.


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Sure, dude dual wielding shields.

A nice 'see what i can do' video but is this fighing style effective ? He is doing some kind of kata and it looks unbalanced and slow. He has some problems to stops moves or change the direction of an attack. An attacker will easily outmaneuver this guy. He should use two tonfa for faster attacks and some defensive abilities. Try to search for a two shield fighting style and you will find only a few hits.

Two shields are possible but really uncommon.

Now PF come into play. With some feats an enchantments a two shield fighting style is the best fighting style in the game. Shield bonus, no TWF penalties, best One-Handed Damaged.

All higher level fighters should use this fighting style!


Eridan wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Sure, dude dual wielding shields.

A nice 'see what i can do' video but is this fighing style effective ? He is doing some kind of kata and it looks unbalanced and slow. He has some problems to stops moves or change the direction of an attack. An attacker will easily outmaneuver this guy. He should use two tonfa for faster attacks and some defensive abilities. Try to search for a two shield fighting style and you will find only a few hits.

Two shields are possible but really uncommon.

Now PF come into play. With some feats an enchantments a two shield fighting style is the best fighting style in the game. Shield bonus, no TWF penalties, best One-Handed Damaged.

All higher level fighters should use this fighting style!

To be fair, Pathfinder Martials have incredible amounts of strength and would be able to swing much faster and with greater accuracy/strength than your average athletic joe.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Eridan wrote:
Now PF come into play. With some feats an enchantments a two shield fighting style is the best fighting style in the game. Shield bonus, no TWF penalties, best One-Handed Damaged.

This alone is a strong argument (ad absurdia) to disallow this fighting style in a game. There should not be feats that allow dual-wielding shields. What book made this monumental error?

Yeah, I like some superficial lip-service to realism and logic in my fantasy. Even if wizards can cast all kinds of hinky spells that have no basis in any flavor of realism, and even though the same can be said for many monsters and magic items, some game mechanics elements just rub me the wrong way. I can see some Conan-esque hero wielding a giant greatsword, say, but dual-wielding shields just bursts the real-seeming effect for me.

YMMV.


Wheldrake wrote:
Eridan wrote:
Now PF come into play. With some feats an enchantments a two shield fighting style is the best fighting style in the game. Shield bonus, no TWF penalties, best One-Handed Damaged.

This alone is a strong argument (ad absurdia) to disallow this fighting style in a game. There should not be feats that allow dual-wielding shields. What book made this monumental error?

It'll never be as good as Archery and dedicated 2hander builds. So whats the issue? TWF is still awful due to DR and increased reliance on full attacks.


Scavion wrote:

Nah I've got this one for him

Shields are weapons. They're listed in the Weapons section of the Core Rulebook. To suggest otherwise would be to flagrantly misread the text of the book.

Also interestingly to note, there is only the nebulous "An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right." passage to suggest that you may be able to enchant the shield spikes. Otherwise, Shield Spikes are not listed as a weapon. They're listed as "Spiked Steel Shield." Which implies you have to enchant the shield and spikes as a whole or you have to enhance the entire shield twice for different functions. But enchanting JUST the spikes is a nonsensical operation as "Shield Spikes" do not exist as a weapon.

Which ergo means that they should be compatible.

Shields are listed in the armor section. Spiked shields, light and heavy, are listed in the weapons section. The description of spiked shields says that you can use them to bash and don't get an AC bonus when you do.

Since spiked shields are weapons, they don't qualify for armor enchantments. Shields can be given attack bonus enchantments, but they have to be added to the cost of the AC enchantment and the total cannot exceed +10.

Furthermore, the description of shield spikes in the armor section says flat out that putting spikes on a shield turns it into a martial weapon. At that point it's no longer a shield.


Simon Legrande wrote:
Shields can be given attack bonus enchantments, but they have to be added to the cost of the AC enchantment and the total cannot exceed +10.

Do they? I'd like a relevant text source.

Sczarni

Eridan wrote:

Shield spikes and the Bashing enchantment dont stack by RAI.

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James Jacobs wrote:
Karui Kage wrote:
They combine and are treated as a shield 3 sizes larger. This was covered in the 3.5 FAQ and the wording hasn't changed with Pathfinder, both the spikes and the Bashing quality improve the 'shield bash'. So a spiked heavy shield with Bashing does 2d6 base damage.

Which is more damage than any other 1-handed weapon, which is not really the intent of the ability. Especially since shield spikes are weapons. And the bashing quality is an armor quality; it's meant to be put on a shield, not a weapon.

It's certainly an issue that needs to be cleared up in the FAQ (which we made strides toward getting done last week). In any case, if a GM is fine with someone basically getting 2H weapon damage with one hand for a mere 9,000 gp, I guess that's fine.

Now BBT comes with his 'Shields are weapons'..

In all fairness, 2d6 damage in one hand is, on average, 7 damage. best 1 hander damage-wise is the bastard sword, for 5.5, tied with the scizore, which has it's own issues. (Yes, the bastard sword requires an extra feat. So does TWF shields. Bastard Sword also has better crit range.)

However, the +1 equivalent enchant could be either a +1, at which point we have the average damage of 6.5 and +1 to hit with better crit range, versus 7. (and +1 to hit = +2 to damage according to most people.)

Second, it could be a flaming/shocking/icy weapon, where the damage becomes 9 vs 7, which is for the same 9000 gold.

Also, he literally said if GMs are ok with it, so is he.

At level 11, when you start ignoring penalties, it's a bit less ok, but you're still far away from the damage that someone with a 15-20 weapon would have. Also, shield bonuses don't stack, so you're stuck with just the bonus from one.

Another thing is about using a Large Shield, which was my whole point. I do agree on the fact that twin shields is better than everything later on, but I rarely play above level 8, so YMMV.


Scavion wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Shields can be given attack bonus enchantments, but they have to be added to the cost of the AC enchantment and the total cannot exceed +10.
Do they? I'd like a relevant text source.

On my tablet so not going to try to link it, but see CRB chapter on magic items. Go to the Armor and Shields section, then read the text on Shields below the enchantment charts.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ahem.

Quote:

A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.

Armor: suits of armor.

Belts: belts and girdles.

Body: robes and vestments.

Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.

Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.

Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.

Hands: gauntlets and gloves.

Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.

Headband: headbands and phylacteries.

Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs.

Ring (up to two): rings.

Shield: shields.

Shoulders: capes and cloaks.

Wrist: bracelets and bracers.

Discuss.


Chemlak wrote:

Ahem.

Quote:

A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which slot on the body the item is worn.

Armor: suits of armor.

Belts: belts and girdles.

Body: robes and vestments.

Chest: mantles, shirts, and vests.

Eyes: eyes, glasses, and goggles.

Feet: boots, shoes, and slippers.

Hands: gauntlets and gloves.

Head: circlets, crowns, hats, helms, and masks.

Headband: headbands and phylacteries.

Neck: amulets, brooches, medallions, necklaces, periapts, and scarabs.

Ring (up to two): rings.

Shield: shields.

Shoulders: capes and cloaks.

Wrist: bracelets and bracers.

Discuss.

Exactly. And to use the argument that spiked shields are weapons negates their consideration as shields.


Ah so we've all been playing wrong and can't wield weapons. Thanks Chemlak.


Scavion wrote:
Ah so we've all been playing wrong and can't wield weapons. Thanks Chemlak.

Weapons are gear that you wear on your body?


Simon Legrande wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Ah so we've all been playing wrong and can't wield weapons. Thanks Chemlak.
Weapons are gear that you wear on your body?

Shields are gear that you hold in a hand. Are you saying somehow, you can't hold two shields?


Scavion wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Ah so we've all been playing wrong and can't wield weapons. Thanks Chemlak.
Weapons are gear that you wear on your body?
Shields are gear that you hold in a hand. Are you saying somehow, you can't hold two shields?

First, if you want to use a shield as a shield then you strap it to your arm and grasp part of it with your hand. That being said, sure you can hold two shields. You just can't use them both as shields. IIRC, we've all been told that holding and wielding are different.


Simon Legrande wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Ah so we've all been playing wrong and can't wield weapons. Thanks Chemlak.
Weapons are gear that you wear on your body?
Shields are gear that you hold in a hand. Are you saying somehow, you can't hold two shields?
First, if you want to use a shield as a shield then you strap it to your arm and grasp part of it with your hand. That being said, sure you can hold two shields. You just can't use them both as shields. IIRC, we've all been told that holding and wielding are different.

Or rather...

One shield is used as a weapon and the other is used as a shield.


Scavion wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Ah so we've all been playing wrong and can't wield weapons. Thanks Chemlak.
Weapons are gear that you wear on your body?
Shields are gear that you hold in a hand. Are you saying somehow, you can't hold two shields?
First, if you want to use a shield as a shield then you strap it to your arm and grasp part of it with your hand. That being said, sure you can hold two shields. You just can't use them both as shields. IIRC, we've all been told that holding and wielding are different.

Or rather...

One shield is used as a weapon and the other is used as a shield.

And at that point you aren't dual wielding shields. You can't attack with both nor can you defend with both. And since spiked shields are not shields, this rule is irrelevant to that situation.

If your GM wants to allow this, it's your game. I have to go to work now, so feel free to go on without me.

Silver Crusade

I've played the two-shield brawler fighter and thoroughly enjoyed it. Your AC will actually be high enough to matter, and shield slamming people around is some great fun. Your damage is also surprisingly good, assuming you get to full attack. I also took saving shield, but that's mostly because I had a barbarian in the party who was usually being attacked rather than me. Results were mediocre.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm not arguing that it should be impossible to dual-wield shields. I think it's silly, but I suppose it should be conceptually possible to dual-wield shields, or use one as a shield and one as a weapon.

According to rules on body slots, you wouldn't get shield-based armor bonuses from more than one shield.

But what I am arguing is that there shouldn't be feats and magic item properties that stack in such a way that it makes shields better martial weapons than swords, or even greatswords (!) and that dual-wielding shields should be harder than two-weapon fighting, not easier.

This makes me think I need to reread the feats referenced in this thread so that I know which ones to ban or houserule. <g>

I mean, I'm not claiming that some cool martial build needs to be nerfed because it's too powerful. That would be silly, compared to the massive powers of god wizards and cheesed summoners and their like. But I do feel that some feats and item properties should never have made it past playtesting.


What about wielding an oversized shield two handed? Would shield master remove the -2 penalty from that?


I agree with Wheldrake i read the post i understand the math i just can't agree with the concept how would dual wielding of shields come about when in the characters life did he say" i know instead of having a sword or axe or mace in my hand to fight with I'll use another shield " it makes no sense in character .
I understand that shield bashing make sense and through out history warriors have used that tactic but when you can do more damage with a shield (ment to protect you ) than you can with a sword (which is designed to kill ) its just doesn't make sense

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Eridan wrote:
Now BBT comes with his 'Shields are weapons'..

Shields are weapons, bro. You may whine about this if you please, but it doesn't change the rules.


Having watched the link above about the guy wielding two shields i was impressed .
But the shields are of a special design and they don't strap to the arm in the normal way they are also smaller than a standard heavy shield .
Also the guy is clearly a martial artist so would suggest that duel shield wielding could be a monk style of combat ( something that might make monks more appealing )
Also one question to the op did you choose this style of fighting based on story fluff or rules crunch if it was purely the latter then that's metagaming

Liberty's Edge

tony gent wrote:
Having watched the link above about the guy wielding two shields i was impressed .

Honestly, I've seen better demonstrations of the same style.

tony gent wrote:
But the shields are of a special design and they don't strap to the arm in the normal way they are also smaller than a standard heavy shield .

Uh...no they aren't. That's Heavy Shield size, much bigger and we're talking Tower Shield. And the sharp bits on the bottom are easily mechanically reflected with shield spikes.

tony gent wrote:
Also the guy is clearly a martial artist so would suggest that duel shield wielding could be a monk style of combat ( something that might make monks more appealing )

Uh...every combat style is martial arts. Kinda definitionally. It's an Asian style...but not everyone in Asian-themed countries is a Monk, y'know?

tony gent wrote:
Also one question to the op did you choose this style of fighting based on story fluff or rules crunch if it was purely the latter then that's metagaming

Eh. It's not metagaming to build your character around a mechanically effective option. It's actually almost impossible to metagame during character creation barring knowing what's going to happen somehow. Heck, inasmuch as it is possible, I'd recommend it as does Paizo what with suggesting appropriate Favored Enemies for APs and similar things.


Firstly never seen that style before so i was impressed im sure there are better demos but im not bothered about that
Secondly a having done medieval reinactmts a large shield is about one and a half to two times the size of those shields a tower shield is more than three times that size
Thirdly they are modified as some of the moves are clearly slashing attacks so the edge would need to be sharpened to have any real effect
Lastly true martial arts means fighting style but as the monk in pathfinder is very much based on the Asian monk and there knowledge of fighting styles i stand by my idea that it would make more sense if it was one of the monks combat styles we have monks here in the UK but they are men of god who have no knowledge of any fighting style
As for the metagaming thing lets agree to disagree


The Morphling wrote:
Eridan wrote:
Now BBT comes with his 'Shields are weapons'..
Shields are weapons, bro. You may whine about this if you please, but it doesn't change the rules.

Shields are shields. Spiked shields are weapons. If you can provide a link to something that says otherwise then I will accept that statement.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Simon Legrande wrote:
The Morphling wrote:
Eridan wrote:
Now BBT comes with his 'Shields are weapons'..
Shields are weapons, bro. You may whine about this if you please, but it doesn't change the rules.
Shields are shields. Spiked shields are weapons. If you can provide a link to something that says otherwise then I will accept that statement.

Do me a favor and type "Control+F" on this page and type in "shield."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons

See if "Shield" appears anywhere in the table of "Weapons."

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