Good natural attack build?


Advice

Grand Lodge

Is there any race/class build that can give me bite and two claws? I know I'll lose out on iterative attacks later, but it seems like fun to make a build for this. I'm just not familiar enough with all of the different classes or racial options to know if this is possible.

So what would work for a build focusing on natural attacks?

I should clarify that this will have to be legal for PFS


Race: Skinwalker (Ragebred/Wereboar variant).

Class: Barbarian.

Feats required: Extra Feature.

Rage Powers required: Lesser Beast Totem, Beast Totem, Greater Beast Totem, Animal Fury

Step 1: Turn into your boar form. Gain 2 Hooves, and a Gore.

Step 2: Rage, gain 2 claws and a bite.

Step 3: Charge.

Step 4: ???

Step 5: Shred your enemy into barely recognizable scraps using 6 attacks at full BaB.


Two races are typically used for this: Half orc and tiefling. This is because both have alternate racial traits that give bite attack.

The classes people often go for are either ranger of barbarian.

Ranger is a rather good deal since it gives you permanent claws at level 2, and you can just decide to go to a different class afterwards if you want (Well, ranger is not bad itself though)

Barbarians give you claws with the lesser beast totem rage power. Unfortunately, they only come out when you rage. Still, that rage power is the first in the line that gives pounce (which is a full attack after a charge). So they are fairly popular. Combining the two classes might not be unadvisable, since again, you only need a 2 level dip into ranger to get the permanent claws. After that, just rage out and wait until level 12 to get pounce.

I might as well be honest about other, less .....'reputable' ways to get natural attacks. One of which is to take the adopted trait and get a trait for half orcs that gives a bite.... but really? You learned how to grow dagger like teeth from your adopted parents? And why is it always catfolk barbarians that do this?

There is also another race, the skin walkers, that can get natural attacks. The weretiger one can get just a plain bite/claw/claw (and I am fine with that)... but I might as well say that there is an option (the one born from wereboars) that gets gore/hoof/hoof. That could get you 5 natural attacks if you combine it with the class option (although, remember, hooves are secondary natural attacks, getting only 1/2 str and power attack damage, and hitting with a -5 penalty). So while it works....I would not use it for barbarian, since they ruin the only bonuses barbarians get to attacks.

Scarab Sages

Tengu can also get you 2 claws and a bite. Also, while the above builds are solid, it should be mentioned that Alchemist is also a viable natural weapon build option.


Belabras wrote:
Tengu can also get you 2 claws and a bite. Also, while the above builds are solid, it should be mentioned that Alchemist is also a viable natural weapon build option.

Ah yes, forgot about that.

Tengu often make fantastic rogues/ninjas. Early on, they allow an effective and accurate way to get in 3 attacks at once (which can be devastating when you get sneak attack). Even at high levels, it still matches the power of TWF because it get 3 accurate hits, while a 3/4 BAB character using TWF would get 2 ...accurate hits, 2 'meh' hits, and 1-2 'fat chance' hits.

But of course, do not feel like they need to be restricted to the sneaky types. People often confuse a dex bonus as a lock in for finesse builds. No, you could just as well go with barbarian and enjoy pounce (Which is often a way to keep great DPR while staying to a bite/claw/claw style, rather than the increasing number of attacks other full BAB character feel they need to keep up)


claudekennilol wrote:

Is there any race/class build that can give me bite and two claws? I know I'll lose out on iterative attacks later, but it seems like fun to make a build for this. I'm just not familiar enough with all of the different classes or racial options to know if this is possible.

So what would work for a build focusing on natural attacks?

I should clarify that this will have to be legal for PFS

Not legal for PFS or most campaigns, but a 3.5 Shifter in a P6 game can do some amazing things.


If you apply FCT to one of your attacks, you can also apply feats like Snake Fang to them. An Attack of Opportunity trigger: hello again iterative attacks.

If you take 3 levels in Monk, you can take Monastic Legacy and continue to grow in Unarmed Strike Damage which you can continue to apply to your natural attack.

2 levels in Ranger can net you the Improved Natural Attack Feat in a way that is legal for PFS. 1 level in Ranger will allow you to use a Wand of Strong Jaw.

If you take 1 level in Fighter with the Unarmed Archetype, you can get a bonus Style Feat without needing prereqs. Panther Claw can give you extra attacks, too.

I like applying it to a Tentacle, maybe an Alchemal Tentacle and use the Grab ability to gain extra damage with Armor Spikes, but you could apply a similar effect to your claws or bite with the Hamatula Strike Feat.

The Beastmorph Alchemist Archetype can give you natural attacks, I believe. So can the Alter Self Spell, Druid Wild Shape, or Monstrous Physique. You can use Monstrous Physique to Polymorph into a 4-armed Sahaugin with 4 claw attacks. That has an advantage over Wild Shaping into a Giant Octopus in that polymorphing into a Monstrous Humanoid does not cause you to lose your armor or gear.

On that note, you MUST look at the Monktopus!

There are magic items: the Tentacle Cloak, the Mammoth Helm, a Ring (ratfangs?)


Actually, thinking about it, are skinwalkers even PFS legal without a boon?

I know that half-orcs, tieflings, and tengu are already PFS legal all the time.

EDIT: Oh, and with Scott Wilhelm bringing in some of the more theorycraft intensive options, I might as well say- bite/claw/claw is fantastic over the PFS level range. It not only keeps up during levels 1-10, it pretty much dominates with its powerful full attacks.

A lot of the more intensive builds he mentioned need a lot of time to pay off, and honestly, I somewhat doubt how long you could full enjoy them given the limits of PFS. Even my mentions of a barbarian's pounce are in that same realm of 'as useful as capstone abilities in home campaigns'.

Grand Lodge

lemeres wrote:

Actually, thinking about it, are skinwalkers even PFS legal without a boon?

I know that half-orcs, tieflings, and tengu are already PFS legal all the time.

EDIT: Oh, and with Scott Wilhelm bringing in some of the more theorycraft intensive options, I might as well say- bite/claw/claw is fantastic over the PFS level range. It not only keeps up during levels 1-10, it pretty much dominates with its powerful full attacks.

A lot of the more intensive builds he mentioned need a lot of time to pay off, and honestly, I somewhat doubt how long you could full enjoy them given the limits of PFS. Even my mentions of a barbarian's pounce are in that same realm of 'as useful as capstone abilities in home campaigns'.

I didn't add the "PFS" legal part until after the first few posts. I forgot to mention that bit.


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Actually, lemeres, some of the ideas I mentioned can be applied to fast-developing character builds. I even worked out a Monktopus build that gets terrifying by level 7, and probably has a higher DPR than anything by level 12. In levels 1-6, it would still be a helpful party member.

Have a look.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2raat?help-with-a-tetori-monk-for-PFS#5

http://paizo.com/threads/gbimqyu5/favorites?Combat-Druid-Is-it-possible

The power of the Monktopus build is actually understated. I neglected to figure that it also has Constrict.


Tengu Barbarian with Fiend Totem lesser has 4 full bab attacks from level 2.


If you like cheese go Tiefling with the maw or claw alt race trait for claws and pick up the Tusked trait from Orcs of Gollarion.
As you can get a STR bonus from variant Tiefling Races it tends to be better for martials than Tengu with their penalty to CON.
But hurry only while supplies last as PFS will axe Tieflings as playable race soon (and rightfully so).


The kobold can start with a bite, get two claws via rage power or ranger combat style and get a tail slap in addition to that via a feat.

in addition to that they can qualify for noxious bite. But I don't think that's PFS legal.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Although expensive, the Monstrous Extremities spell will get you two hoof attacks.

Two levels of white haired witch will get you constrict, which will qualify you for the Final Embrace feat, adding grab and constrict to all of your natural attacks. Sure, it's a bit of a BAB dip, and you need to invest a little in grapple to truly take advantage of it, but it's beautiful to see someone hit with claw x2, bite, gore, hair, hoofx2 and then deal constrict damage on top of all of that.

Scarab Sages

Wait, wouldn't the constrict only apply to the hair attack?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Belabras wrote:
Wait, wouldn't the constrict only apply to the hair attack?

That's true for the base White-Haired Witch, but the final embrace feat grants you the grab and constrict special attacks, which it appears to apply to unarmed strikes and primary natural attacks, based on the context of the feat.

I've also seen it interpreted as applying to only one attack, which seems to negate the point of the feat, and as applying to all attacks, which doesn't seem to make sense considering it specifically states that it deals damage equal to an unarmed strike or primary natural attack.


Ratfolk are not PFS if I remember correctly but with barbarian they can get the two claws, and a bite thing and have their tail whip that counts as a secondary natural weapon.


Preamble
How many natural attacks can you stack onto move/full attack? Let’s find out! Pandy here relies a lot on magic items

2 claws (from lesser beast totem)
1 bite (from animal fury)
1 tail slap (from the Tail Terror feat, because an aasimar who can take human-prereq feats can take Racial Heritage (kobold), which opens kobold-prereq feats)
2 wing buffets (from Metallic Wings)
2 hooves (from a wand of monstrous extremities (a spell from Faiths of Corruption))
2 tentacles (from a tentacle cloak)
1 gore (from a helm of the mammoth lord)

Plus 3 iterative attacks (from a no-hand armor spikes) plus a javelin (using hurling charge) equals 15 attacks a round. As Pandy levels up, he should probably grab Critical Focus, and some interesting critical feats.

Aside from those other items, you might try, oh, an amulet of mighty fists, or perhaps a javelin of lightning.

The name Pandemonium Zodiac brings to mind violence with all parts of all the zodiac animals (Taurus horns, Cancer crab claws, etc). Wheee!!

Pandemonium Zodiac
Male scion of humanity angelkin aasimar barbarian 13
CN Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 157 (13d12+51)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +4 (+2 vs. evil, fire, +3 vs. traps)
DR 3/-, Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee mwk armor spikes +19/+14/+9 (1d6+5) and tail slap +13 (1d4+2) and 2 wing buffets +13 (1d4+2) or mwk armor spikes +15/+10/+5 (1d6+13) and tail slap +9 (1d4+6) and 2 wing buffets +9 (1d4+6)
Ranged javelin +15/+10/+5 (1d6+5, range 30)
Special Attacks greater rage (31 rounds/day, +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -3 AC)
Rage Powers animal fury, beast totem, greater beast totem, hurling charge, lesser beast totem, lesser hurling
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 13th, concentration +13)
1/day - alter self
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +18; CMD 30
Feats Angel Wings, Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh (bronze), Metallic Wings, Power Attack, Racial Heritage (kobold), Tail Terror
Skills Acrobatics +15, Fly +5, Heal +2, Knowledge (nature) +16, Knowledge (planes) +3, Perception +16, Use Magic Device +17, ACP -1
Special Qualities improved uncanny dodge, trap sense (+3)
Languages Common
Gear mwk chain shirt with mwk armor spikes, 6 javelins, wand of monstrous extremities, helm of the mammoth lord, tentacle cloak
Traits Dangerously Curious, ???
Favored Class barbarian (+1 skill rank, +12 hit points)
Feat Progression

Level
Feat
1st
Racial Heritage (kobold)
3rd
Tail Terror
5th
Power Attack
7th
Angelic Blood
9th
Angelic Flesh (bronze)
11th
Angel Wings
13th
Metallic Wings

Rage Power Progression

Level
Rage Power
2nd
lesser beast totem
4th
animal fury
6th
beast totem
8th
lesser hurling
10th
greater beast totem
12th
hurling charge


EsperMagic wrote:

Preamble

How many natural attacks can you stack onto move/full attack? Let’s find out! Pandy here relies a lot on magic items

2 claws (from lesser beast totem)
1 bite (from animal fury)
1 tail slap (from the Tail Terror feat, because an aasimar who can take human-prereq feats can take Racial Heritage (kobold), which opens kobold-prereq feats)
2 wing buffets (from Metallic Wings)
2 hooves (from a wand of monstrous extremities (a spell from Faiths of Corruption))
2 tentacles (from a tentacle cloak)
1 gore (from a helm of the mammoth lord)

Plus 3 iterative attacks (from a no-hand armor spikes) plus a javelin (using hurling charge) equals 15 attacks a round. As Pandy levels up, he should probably grab Critical Focus, and some interesting critical feats.

Aside from those other items, you might try, oh, an amulet of mighty fists, or perhaps a javelin of lightning.

The name Pandemonium Zodiac brings to mind violence with all parts of all the zodiac animals (Taurus horns, Cancer crab claws, etc). Wheee!!

Pandemonium Zodiac
Male scion of humanity angelkin aasimar barbarian 13
CN Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 157 (13d12+51)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +4 (+2 vs. evil, fire, +3 vs. traps)
DR 3/-, Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee mwk armor spikes +19/+14/+9 (1d6+5) and tail slap +13 (1d4+2) and 2 wing buffets +13 (1d4+2) or mwk armor spikes +15/+10/+5 (1d6+13) and tail slap +9 (1d4+6) and 2 wing buffets +9 (1d4+6)
Ranged javelin +15/+10/+5 (1d6+5, range 30)
Special Attacks greater rage (31 rounds/day, +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -3 AC)
Rage Powers animal fury, beast totem, greater beast totem, hurling charge, lesser beast totem, lesser hurling
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 13th, concentration +13)
1/day - alter self
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +18; CMD 30
Feats Angel Wings,...

There is a lot to parse there

Why do you use armor spikes? It nerfs each and every one of those natural attacks, and removes the only bonuses that a barbarian can offer.

I noticed that there are absolutely no natural attacks prior to tail terror at level 3. You don't even grab power attack until level 5. I don't think this would be very useful prior to that, and unfun since you aren't doing your 'thing' for a very long time. Also, I haven't checked-does PFS even go into level 13 currently?

.....do I even need to mention the cheese with the kobold stuff? You are an aasimar that is so human that he can be a kobold? I am still unsure there was a positive answer from the rules threads talking about whether that even works with a race that doesn't come with tails. And does anyone really want to actually play this monstrosity, or is this just the champion of Pun-pun?


Here are the basics of one I am considering

Bloodrager
Abyssal bloodline

Tiefling
Demon-Spawn (+2 str, +2 Cha, -2 Int, +2 Disable Device +2 Perception, Shatter SLA, +2 confirm crits if charging, +1 dam vs objects and constructs)
Question: does the tiefling heritages still get the base tiefling Fiendish Sorcery and does it work with the bloodrager abyssal bloodline? If no to either, then will also take Prehensile Tail
Alt Racial Trait: Maw for d6 bite primary natural attack and lose spell like ability
Considering: Fiendish Sprinter
Abilities: Str 19(17+2), Con 15, Dex 10, Int 6(8-2), Wis 12, Cha 12(10+2), Lv 4 +1 Con, Lv 8 +1 Str
Bloodrager with the Abyssal bloodline
Traits: Indomitable Faith (+1 on will saves) and Ascendant Recollection (not sure if this works for a bloodrager; if it does, it would give the claw effects 1 level sooner, if not something else)

Feat
1 Power Attack
3 Raging Vitality
5 Improved Natural Attack: Claws
6 Bloodline Feat: Intimidating Prowess
7 Fiend Sight (lowlight and darkvision 120’)
9 Fiend Sight (see in darkness), Bloodline Feat: Improved Sunder
11 Armor of the Pit (+2 natural AC)

Spells
4 Chill Touch, Shield
5 Expeditious Retreat
6 Feather Fall (ACG says Feature Fall but I think it means feather fall)
7 Ablative Barrier, False Life, Bonus: Cause Fear
8 Mirror Image
9 See Invisibility
10 Greater Animal Aspect, Displacement, Bonus: Bulls Strength
11 Heroism

at 4th level when raging a size larger, so claws are d8 and bite is d8

at 7th level claws go to d8 and when raging a size larger, so claws are 2d6 and bite is d8

-------------------------------------

IF also have feat Improved Natural Attack: Claws at level 5, this becomes:

at 5th level claws are d8
at 5th level when raging a size larger, so claws are 2d6 and bite is d8

at 7th level claws go to 2d6 and when raging a size larger, so claws are 3d6 and bite is d8

--------------------------------------

IF also have feat Improved Natural Attack: Bite at level 7, this becomes:

at 5th level claws are d8
at 5th level when raging a size larger, so claws are 2d6 and bite is d8

at 7th level bite is d8
at 7th level claws go to 2d6 and when raging a size larger, so claws are 3d6 and bite is 2d6


How does this look?

Tiefling with claw, fiendish sprinter & prehensile tail racial trait

Ranger infiltrator and monk qinggong
Edit caught a mistake with class / feats

Str:15 Dex:13 +2 Con:13 Int:12 +2 Wis:13 Cha: 12 -2 (7+3+3+2+3+2 )
1 ranger: power attack
2 ranger: weapon focus claw
1 monk: feral combat training, imp grapple
2 monk: +1 dex, dodge
3 monk: monastic legacy
3 ranger: adaptive: giant = lunge
4 ranger: rending claws
5 ranger: +1 con
6 ranger: elritch claws, improved natural attack claw
7 ranger:
8 ranger: dragon style feat
4 monk: +1 wis

PFS is 12 levels and i think this would net you BAB: +11/+6 FS:10 RS:10 WS:6
Granted I've only made 1 character ever so i could be making mistakes. factoring in FOB hurts my brain so i didn't try. Bad at math =(
I'd take the adopted dwarf for grounded and defensive strategist. + 1 ref save and 3 acrobatic and basically uncanny dodge.

I'd take Elf 2nd favored enemy for fun.

Scarab Sages

Skip Improved Natural Attack and get Arcane Strike instead. Greater return in damage.


lemeres wrote:
EsperMagic wrote:

Preamble

How many natural attacks can you stack onto move/full attack? Let’s find out! Pandy here relies a lot on magic items

2 claws (from lesser beast totem)
1 bite (from animal fury)
1 tail slap (from the Tail Terror feat, because an aasimar who can take human-prereq feats can take Racial Heritage (kobold), which opens kobold-prereq feats)
2 wing buffets (from Metallic Wings)
2 hooves (from a wand of monstrous extremities (a spell from Faiths of Corruption))
2 tentacles (from a tentacle cloak)
1 gore (from a helm of the mammoth lord)

Plus 3 iterative attacks (from a no-hand armor spikes) plus a javelin (using hurling charge) equals 15 attacks a round. As Pandy levels up, he should probably grab Critical Focus, and some interesting critical feats.

Aside from those other items, you might try, oh, an amulet of mighty fists, or perhaps a javelin of lightning.

The name Pandemonium Zodiac brings to mind violence with all parts of all the zodiac animals (Taurus horns, Cancer crab claws, etc). Wheee!!

Pandemonium Zodiac
Male scion of humanity angelkin aasimar barbarian 13
CN Medium outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 157 (13d12+51)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +4 (+2 vs. evil, fire, +3 vs. traps)
DR 3/-, Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 30 ft. (average)
Melee mwk armor spikes +19/+14/+9 (1d6+5) and tail slap +13 (1d4+2) and 2 wing buffets +13 (1d4+2) or mwk armor spikes +15/+10/+5 (1d6+13) and tail slap +9 (1d4+6) and 2 wing buffets +9 (1d4+6)
Ranged javelin +15/+10/+5 (1d6+5, range 30)
Special Attacks greater rage (31 rounds/day, +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -3 AC)
Rage Powers animal fury, beast totem, greater beast totem, hurling charge, lesser beast totem, lesser hurling
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 13th, concentration +13)
1/day - alter self
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +18;

...

The armor spikes are completely unnecessary and are just there to add even more attacks. You could lose them and be fine. And so it what the aasimar/human/kobold is a bit cheesy no one ever said this had to be super-serious real world junk. I mean if the guy next to you is summoning angels and casting fireballs I highly doubt anyone will care about your racial makeup that much.

Dark Archive

EsperMagic wrote:
And so it what the aasimar/human/kobold is a bit cheesy no one ever said this had to be super-serious real world junk. I mean if the guy next to you is summoning angels and casting fireballs I highly doubt anyone will care about your racial makeup that much.

There's actually a response from SRM and the rules team in the 1100 post thread about the tail terror/aasimar debate explaining exactly what the language means and what the RAW/RAI are, you still have an insane amount of natural attacks, just not this one.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Designer wrote:
Linkified


Aegis (Aberrant ‎archetype) from Psionics Expanded: Unlimited Possibilities isn't legal for PFS, but it deserves mentioning since you can gain up to 5 secondary natural attacks (4 tentacles and a stinger) that will stack with lots others (probably not synthesist or polymorph) in 3 levels or less. It's a full bab class that changes your body and grants permanent supernatural abilities.

.

Level 1 gets 3 points, +1 natural armor bonus, +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, and Hardened Strikes.
Level 2 adds 1 more cp, darkvison, and 2/- dr.
Level 3 gets 1 more cp and allows you to change customizations once a day

.

Each attack takes a customization point (cp). You can take a feat at first level (or later) to get an extra point and/or get a much better feat that should be in Ultimate Psionics (it isn't on the srd but), Student of the Astral Suit, that will get you 5 more cp (if you take 3 levels of Aegis) and opens up things like flight, +5' reach, and leftover points for extra damage on all attacks, or defensive abilities like evasion and the will and fort version of evasion.

.

Student of the Astral Suit:

Your studies in other areas has not hindered your skill with astral suits.
Prerequisites: Invigorating suit class feature.
Benefit: Treat your class level as four higher to determine your number of customization points and which customizations you can select for your astral suit, to a maximum of your character level.

.

Since it is your body unless in an anti-psionic (magic) field. You might even be able to say with a straight face that your character worships Irori, and this is all for role-playing purposes (self-perfection).

P.S. I would like to see how many natural attacks you could combine this with.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Druid, lion shaman

Level 2 Transform to give Claws x2, Bite

Level 6 Lion shape, pounce and rake.

From level 1 have an animal companion. Get Aug Summon, Sp Focus Conju and if Human Power Attack.

At level 7

Round 1 Your pet pounces.
You summon large cat, it pounces.

Round 2 Natural attacks from your pet, your summoned large cat
You pounce.

Now you have 3 pouncers on the battlefield. Get some disguise skill and your pet the skill so you can play the shell game with great cats on the battlefield.


Angry Wiggles wrote:
Belabras wrote:
Wait, wouldn't the constrict only apply to the hair attack?

That's true for the base White-Haired Witch, but the final embrace feat grants you the grab and constrict special attacks, which it appears to apply to unarmed strikes and primary natural attacks, based on the context of the feat.

I've also seen it interpreted as applying to only one attack, which seems to negate the point of the feat, and as applying to all attacks, which doesn't seem to make sense considering it specifically states that it deals damage equal to an unarmed strike or primary natural attack.

The wording of this feat is a little funny. It lists the Constrict ability as a prerequisite AND as a benefit.


lemeres Thursday, 05:47 PM

"Why do you use armor spikes? It nerfs each and every one of those natural attacks, and removes the only bonuses that a barbarian can offer."

I don't see how Armor Spikes nerf anything. They do extra damage whenever you make a successful Grapple check. The character has the Grab Ability. He can release the grapple every time as a free action.

What's nerfed?

Sczarni

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

lemeres Thursday, 05:47 PM

"Why do you use armor spikes? It nerfs each and every one of those natural attacks, and removes the only bonuses that a barbarian can offer."

I don't see how Armor Spikes nerf anything. They do extra damage whenever you make a successful Grapple check. The character has the Grab Ability. He can release the grapple every time as a free action.

What's nerfed?

Armor spikes are manufactured weapons. So every Natural attacks becomes secondary.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Only if you use them to attack.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


What's nerfed?

Nerfed = to weaken or make less effective.


Thank you, Mage Evolving.

But I meant "What is being nerfed, here?" I didn't mean, "What is the definition of 'nerfed'?"

I apologize for being unclear.


Krodjin wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

lemeres Thursday, 05:47 PM

"Why do you use armor spikes? It nerfs each and every one of those natural attacks, and removes the only bonuses that a barbarian can offer."

I don't see how Armor Spikes nerf anything. They do extra damage whenever you make a successful Grapple check. The character has the Grab Ability. He can release the grapple every time as a free action.

What's nerfed?

Armor spikes are manufactured weapons. So every Natural attacks becomes secondary.

If you use Armor Spikes to attack with using an attack action as part of the Full Round Action Full Attack, then yes, all Natural Attacks become Secondary and suffer the -5.

But the OP is planning to acquire a Tentacle Cloak, and each Tentacle will have Grab. With Grab, he can initiate a Grapple as a Free Action as part of the Tentacle hit. When you have Armor Spikes, you inflict AS damage as part of every successful Grapple Check. It doesn't take a separate action: it's part of the grapple. I'm working on builds based on armor spikes & Grab, and I think they'll be pretty high-powered.

Grand Lodge

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

lemeres Thursday, 05:47 PM

"Why do you use armor spikes? It nerfs each and every one of those natural attacks, and removes the only bonuses that a barbarian can offer."

I don't see how Armor Spikes nerf anything. They do extra damage whenever you make a successful Grapple check. The character has the Grab Ability. He can release the grapple every time as a free action.

What's nerfed?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Krodjin wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

lemeres Thursday, 05:47 PM

"Why do you use armor spikes? It nerfs each and every one of those natural attacks, and removes the only bonuses that a barbarian can offer."

I don't see how Armor Spikes nerf anything. They do extra damage whenever you make a successful Grapple check. The character has the Grab Ability. He can release the grapple every time as a free action.

What's nerfed?

Armor spikes are manufactured weapons. So every Natural attacks becomes secondary.

If you use Armor Spikes to attack with using an attack action as part of the Full Round Action Full Attack, then yes, all Natural Attacks become Secondary and suffer the -5.

But the OP is planning to acquire a Tentacle Cloak, and each Tentacle will have Grab. With Grab, he can initiate a Grapple as a Free Action as part of the Tentacle hit. When you have Armor Spikes, you inflict AS damage as part of every successful Grapple Check. It doesn't take a separate action: it's part of the grapple. I'm working on builds based on armor spikes & Grab, and I think they'll be pretty high-powered.

Read the grapple rules. It appears you guys are misunderstanding how armor spikes work with a grapple. It looks like you're saying "every time I grab someone I deal armor spike damage" which is not how it works. It's vague in the equipment page, but when you read the grapple rules it's quite clear that you can't use attacks that grab and then free action to let go to continuously deal armor spike damage in a single turn.

(in spoiler tag because it's so long)

Spoiler:
[quote-"Combat"]Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).

Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.

Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.


Those are the general Grapple rules yes, which refer to damaging someone after maintaining a Grapple.

However, the specific Armor Spikes rules trump the general Grapple rules.

"Armor spikes deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right."

They deal damage on a successful Grapple attack.

You can ALSO make a regular melee attack (or an off-hand attack). This text would be redundant if they merely allowed you to use them in a Grapple...as a light weapon they are already usable.

Sczarni

How is the specific different than the general? It's reiterating what the grapple rules say: as part of the standard action used to maintain the grapple , you can deal damage w/Armor spikes.

Of course the Armor Spikes entry refers to a Grapple Attack. Given how "attack" can refer to any number of things, I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

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