Am I reading your stats correctly? 14 Wis and 18 Cha when you're primarily a Cleric? I know you want lots of channels, but you're also making certain you can't throw out any save-based spells effectively. I don't see any variant channel mentions which could make it more effective in support either. Also - Healers blessing from the Healing domain doesn't apply to Channel healing, so these don't synergise as well as all that.
Absolutely all your resources - stats, feats and one of your domains - have been spent on healing. You're passing up the flexibility that makes clerics so powerful.
Rather than splitting your levels and casting stats pick either Oracle or Cleric and go with just that. Dual Cursed Oracles get the fantastic "Misfortune" revelation as an immediate action which gives you a get out of jail free card on crits anyway - let's see your DM roll two natural 20s in a row. You could alternatively use "Divine Interference" at sufficiently high level.
TL;DR - too focused on healing, not enough on other aspects of support i.e. buffing, summoning, situational. Bit of luck is a touch range standard action that doesn't make you a better support cleric than 90% of others.
Those stats add to 21 pt buy.
I would soften it a little bit. Something like:
Str 7; Dex 10; Con 16; Wis 16; Cha 17; Int 12
Assuming your ant haul trick works out numerically, that should be fine. Level 4 point into charisma, obviously. This gives you a bit more ability to utilize cleric abilities besides healing.
There's nothing wrong with healing itself, but if that's really and truly the only thing you can do... bleh.
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I like your character, but my question is... Why not pure life oracle since you plan on not attacking. Tanking wisdom woul net you a higher dex, and you could have more power ful healing abilities. Golden elemental, favored class bonus from aasimar would net +3 d6 on your channel positive, buff spells would be accessible from you lost of spells know. No apps from casting in melee, and a free quicken cure spell per day.
In one combat round you coul cast cure x wound (swift) elemental heal or swift channel ( move) and cure x (standard no aoo) that will get your fighter off the ground and up to full hp in one round.
On a phone autocorrect really butchered this post lol
There are many ways to make a Cleric better at buffing and support than the basic Cleric. Evangelists add in Inspire Courage, the Heroism subdomain adds in a swift action Aura of Heroism at level 8 and the heroism & greater heroism spells to your list, the Tactics subdomain increases your chance of winning initiative etc.
My main concerns about the build proposed are that it's a caster level/spell level behind a single-classed cleric, as well as being more MAD without improving Initiative, Spell list or Martial capability. bob_the_monster - you specifically mention Blessing of Fervor in the original post, which a single classed cleric would have at level 7 but this build doesn't get until 8.
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You really can't say "rate my build" and then completely brush off the two most important critiques that make your build fail in the opening post. If you don't care that healers are bad characters and you want to play it anyway, by all means do so! Don't, however, ask us to rate the build (which implies optimization) just to shut down every valid statement before they're even made.
Bottom line, a crowd controller with gloves of first aid (to negate that "lucky d20") is a vastly superior support character to a healer in every situation imaginable for PFS. Characters never need healing if they never take damage.
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I'm gonna somewhat disagree with some of the others (I know, big surprise from me).
Healing can be just fine. Even in-combat if you are good enough at it. Especially in later levels of PFS. One of the biggest problems with a healing focus is that yes, you can keep up with damage output. HOWEVER, you really burn through your abilities while trying to do that. But since PFS is very nearly guaranteed to be just a few encounters, that is less of an issue than in some campaigns.
Just be sure you have other things to do (buffs or crowd control spells) before people take damage or in case they don't take damage. I played in a couple scenarios with a dedicated healer where we didn't take much damage (the potential bad things were pretty much insta-death or insta-mission fail), so he said he felt kinda useless by the end since he had only healed about 10-15 points in 2 scenarios.
I don't think dipping oracle gains you as much as it loses, but it isn't horrible. I would suggest you pick one or the other though. Plus, if you pick oracle, your healing stat is the same as your casting stat. So you have decent save DC's if you do try to cast an offensive spell (or cure damage, see below).
One thing you might consider (which won't change the build much, if at all). Healers can do massive damage to undead.
My life oracle is not a healer. He is an undead blaster. He absolutely hates undead and will do almost anything just to get a chance at them. Channel, quick channel, cure spells, sunbeam, etc... Especially effective with the head undead surrounded by minion/spawn undead. Touch cure or sunbeam on the main guy, a quick channel for the mooks, along with energy body so they don't want to touch me. Devastating.
If (and pretty much only if) there are no undead bad guys, he will cast a couple of buffs then be prepared to in-combat heal if necessary.
Since you are doing Aasimar already, consider the force channeling feats. I wish I had done that for my life oracle.
Personal preference, but I always prefer to take at least a few offensive spells and have a reasonable expectation of them working. Even on my support casters. (Summon monster can also work here.) There have just been too many times where support wasn't needed as much as doing something to the bad guys. Chain of perdition and pilfering hand are fun and can be game changers even though they don't do any direct damage.
Take away the staff of greatness, the lich's phylactery, the clerics holy symbol, the wizards spell component pouch, or the archer's bow.
Trip the headless horseman's horse or tie up the backstabbing rogue.
Absolutely hilarious.
The huge penalties from the full plate and tower shield could come up even if you never make an attack roll. (Grease/entangle in your square, must climb a rope, have to swim the river, trying to stay on a horse, combat on an icy lake, etc...) I would recommend getting the folding plate and don't magic the tower shield (that way you aren't out much if you drop it to run). Or maybe a glove of storing for the tower shield.
Some of the condition removals don't work as well off scrolls since a caster level check is involved. So be careful about those.
If you don't take the feats for it, consider the magic items for getting a higher initiative modifier. It is much better to get that Blessing of Fervor cast before everyone has already taken their action.
Consider a reach metamagic rod or UMD a wand of spectral hand for delivering those touch spells in places you don't want to travel or are too slow to get to in time.
I think your math for the Aasimar FCB is off. Each level you get 1/2 to your Oracle level. But you need +2 Oracle level to actually see a benefit. So every 4th level you get 1d6 more, since it's every two Oracle/Cleric levels that add 1d6 more to channel.
It states you get Add +1/2 to the oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation. So that's 4*(1/2) = 2. Point taken, however....
It is not your oracle level multiplied by 1/2 then added to your oracle level. Which would be (Lv * 0.5) + Lv.
It is just adding 1/2 each time you take the FCB. So it is Lv + 0.5
So since he is only taking 1 level of oracle would be 1+0.5=1.5 for that single revelation.
If he took 4 levels of oracle and took the FCB for each of them it would be 4+(4*0.5)=6 for that revelation.
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Characters never need healing if they never take damage.Quoted for ridiculousness. If you've played season 5 without taking damage, you need a new Venture Captain.
I've played season 5 without ever needing in combat healing. You see, I'm from Texas. Back in Living Greyhawk we got stuck with the Bandit Kingdoms, so people here either had to learn how to play effectively, or quit playing because they died every scenario.
As such, we don't see many "useless" party members like dedicated healers or magic missile specialists here. Hell, when we played our level 10s at PaizoCon during the season 5 interactive Mike Brock made the GM throw seeker tier stuff at us because we dominated every 10-11 encounter that existed and still had 20 minutes of time left.
But yeah, nice strawman. Just because you don't play with optimized parties means that parties can't optimize, right?
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I'd argue that Bit of Luck and some other domain powers make for better support than CC, plus plenty of creature types are immune to certain cleric CC spells. BoL is probably one of the better DPR boosters in the game. Get a character with 4-5 attacks and then watch them go with auto-rerolls and more easily confirming their crits.
Bit of luck is a really nice ability. I enjoy it when someone at the table has it to use on me. However, that doesn't make it worth building a character for. Which do you think is a bigger party DPS increase: bit of luck, or having another combat effective character at the table?
Issues with the gloves (IMO, I'd still buy them as a Cleric since there are few better in-slot options...)
-They require a touch, whereas channel works from 30ft away
-Channel and heal per day spells don't cost gold pieces
-They require standard action to use, Quick Channel can be a move action. With the right spell combo a healing spell can be quickened or reach-enabled.
-Meta-magic feats are unable to affect any spell-trigger item (such as this one), whereas they can affect healing spells.
-It's a charged item, so your 4500 gp is blown once all 10 sapphires are out
-It's arguably not cost effective, since a wand of CLW is only 2PA. A scroll of Breath of Life is 1,125 gold and can be purchased earlier (Fame restrictions on max item value in Society).
None of those are really applicable, since gloves of first aid aren't for generic healing, they're for saving lives in the extremely rare instance that the GM gets a hot streak and drops a party member.
Agreed they're a sweet item, but not the best option. Upon further inspection, I'd agree with the consensus that Healing domain is sub-optimal but situationally useful. Everyone says healer's suck until the front-line is on the ground.
And power gamers say healers suck even AFTER the front liner hits the ground, because if the that guy had been on useful character instead of a healer the enemy would have been dead before he could drop the front liner.
Plus in any case, you sometimes end up at a table where someone is running a pre-gen (and we all know how good most of them are, right?) or an un-optimized character. Or a novice player. Happens more often than most people realize, especially in lower levels of Society play.
In an optimized group you may not need a healer, but you don't always get an optimized party.
Honestly, all it takes in PFS to have an "optimized" group is one solid damage dealer and one solid crowd controller. Everything else is just gravy. You can be one of those two every game, so just figure out what's more popular in your area and play the other. You may not ALWAYS have an optimal party, but the times you don't will be extremely rare.
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Bottom line, a crowd controller with gloves of first aid (to negate that "lucky d20") is a vastly superior support character to a healer in every situation imaginable for PFS. Characters never need healing if they never take damage.
I understand your point, but you are stating it in absolutes that are obviously not correct.
It is not terribly difficult to set up a situation where a healer is better than virtually anything else. Are they likely maybe not, but that doesn't mean it is impossible to ever find a situation in which a support and healer is helpful.I find it exceedingly unlikely that a group has ever made it through 12 levels with out ever taking a point of damage. If true, I can't imagine how you weren't bored silly.
I would agree a controller caster is slightly more beneficial to a group than a support/healer caster. However, I think a controller caster and a support/healercaster is better than 2 controller casters. I would say 2 controller casters and a support/healer caster is certainly better than 3 controller casters. Maybe his area has a large number of controller caster and doesn't want to be yet another one of those guys. I don't know. Maybe he just got done playing a controller caster and wants to try something different. I don't know. Maybe he just read the Forge of Combat Guide and realized there aren't to many Arm PC's at his local and wants to try and fil that void. There are quite possibly some valid reasons to try a support/healer caster.
Yes, maybe you constantly sit a table with the same group and have a nice mix of expert highly optimized players with all of the necessary key roles covered. Few of us in PFS do so. Most of the time, I sit at a table with beginners (or at least not skilled players), lopsided tables, unoptimized characters, etc... Fairly often, in-combat healing and support buff spells are very useful. Might a controller caster have been more useful, possibly. But I don't think there is anyway to guarantee that without going through and replaying all of those with replacing the support/healer caster with a controller caster at approximately the same level of system mastery and optimization. I doubt that is very likely to happen.
On a more practical point. When a poster goes out of their way to be insulting and derogatory, the target of the derision is quite likely to just ignore the post. Hence little actual effect except making the insulter feel a bit self superior. On the other hand if a poster rationally and polietly explain and demonstrate with examples, there is a chance the other person might consider and agree with the points expressed.
Edit: Your most recent post is a much better example of reasoned discourse. I still disagree with some of your opinions and the absolute nature of the statements, but it was much more polite and reasoned. Thank you.
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I play with new players all the time. We even have the occasional un-optimized veteran. The difference is that in our area it's easier to teach the new players how to play effectively (note: when I say playing effectively I am in no way putting down other play styles) because knowledge is in the majority here, unlike on the forums, and that makes it much less likely that new players will be misled by horrible advice.
Some of Texas' most solid players were new just a year or two ago. They listened, learned, and now they're good players in their own right.
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Thanks for all your optimization advice and feedback guys, especially Demoyn and Kydeem. I've decided to re-tool this build a bit... Still seeking advice. Specifically a bit stuck on what items might help a support cleric, which I'm pretty set on playing despite the popularity of CC/damage builds. Figure I can throw out a few Hold Person/Dismissal/nasty bad touchy stuff here and there.
** spoiler omitted **...
If you're still dead set on playing a support character, might I suggest a dual-cursed oracle of lore? You get misfortune at level 1, which allows all allies AND enemies to reroll any d20 once per day. You'll also be able to max your charisma that way, leading to full CC spellcasting with spells such as burning disarm and murderous command, tricked out noble scion of war feat, the ability to use charisma for your armor class and reflex saves, mega-diplomacy and knowledge skills, and standard bearer later on.
Because you're still a divine caster, you can break out the heals whenever you feel the need without being pigeon-holed into it permanently. I can give you my full build if you want it, but that's enough to look into making one if you want. It's still a support character, and by definition not optimal from a group perspective, but it's about as good as you can possibly get for a support. I made mine specifically so that I'd have a character that wouldn't let tables get TPK'd but wouldn't steal the spotlight the whole game.
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You want a support cleric play a evanglist. Nothing supports quite like b ardic performance. Heal with a wand and prepare spells to help mitigate damage. Your 11th level feat is going to be divine intervention. Some staple spells: protection from X, prayer, spiritual weapon, summon monster 3+, resist energy. Make your team kill faster with performance, reduce incoming damage, and fix problems after battle.
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Well, your new build is similar to my cleric of Desna for PFS, so I can comment more on this one. I even have the same two domains - Luck and Travel are typical for this sort of thing.
I made mine a halfling, and use the halfling cleric favored class bonus to get another 1/2 use of Bit of Luck per day. So that's an extra use per day every two levels. I didn't dump dex like you (though I did dump str), so I started with cha and wis both at 16. The focus is more on buff spells than outright offense, so I don't need high wisdom as much.
I don't play this character much, so he's only level two, but it's nice to be able to pull out a support build once in a while when everyone else is playing damage dealers and doesn't need me to play one.
A word on role playing: Cleric of Desna with Luck and Travel domains is almost a bad stereotype at this point for support builds. The goddess is easily ignored, since her entire shtick is to follow your own dreams, so you don't have to do anything special to be a worshiper. You can just play it generic if you want. I highly recommend you don't.
Give your character a real personality and a good reason to follow Desna, and shock the other players by really playing it up. Break the stereotype! I even took the Good Dreams trait for mine. Here's an "in character" post by my leprechaun wannabe as an example of how I make him stand out and give him a real reason to follow Desna.
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Would you say there's a 1 level dip that's possible with the above build? And is the current one better than the original build posted?
Any thoughts as to whether 1 level Holy Vindicator would be better or 1 level in Dual-Cursed Lore Oracle w/ Misfortune and Sidestep Secret?
I stand by Caravan Bond being a good battlefield control tactic, when stacked w/ Dimensional Hop. If I read that right I can use my move action to let melee form flanks, retreat or get in line for a charge.
Level dipping specifically for the misfortune is definitely worthwhile, but if you're going to be a base cleric I wouldn't go with sidestep secret (or even lore at all). If you're going to play a cleric you absolutely need to max out your wisdom so that your spellcasting is still a good option, otherwise you're right back where you started with only being effective if your party is built poorly.
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Demoyn, you speak as though there is no such thing as a d20 in this system. Last I checked, enemies did not always fail every save, never hit, only dreamed about confirmed criticals, etc. You speak as though everyone in every group you play in has evasion and makes every save or has never once been subjected to a ref save aoe spell that deals damage, has never fallen etc.
I do not know which version of pathfinder (if you even are playing that) you are referencing when making your replies. I am unfamiliar with it.
He wants to play a healer. You are advocating that HP recovery and spells that do it have no place in whatever role playing game you play. That is fine. But they have a place in pathfinder and he wants to make use of them. Suggesting he play something else entirely is not constructive or helpful and making suggestions in the superior and authoritative tone you have (or saying anything in that tone) is rapidly growing tedious.
If you would like to actually help him play the game and enjoy his character try giving suggestions that help him do what he said he wanted to do. Try speaking as though your play experience is not the only play experience or the deciding factor in what is or is not useful or good or worthwhile. I say this because that is exactly how you sound (to me and maybe others).
I disagree with you on more points than I care to mention. I do believe that you are fundamentally wrong in your stance on healing. I agree that his character should have some other significant tool to contribute to encounters. I would suggest that anyone so heavily dedicated to healing look at means to receive damage, make judicious use of the spell 'shield other' and be certain to have a sizable HP pool for themselves.
I would not suggest that the op play a damage dealer 'because healing the dropped DPs is useless when you can just DPs and kill stuff' is not a valid universal truth. You can miss. Your enemy can evade with spell effects. Foes might resist your damage. A spell effect might prevent you from reaching the enemy, etc. But healing is reliable and consistent. If you can DPs and heal like a beast- great. If you can tank and heal wonderfully, awesome. If you can debuff and heal amazingly-more power to you. And so on.
If everyone played with the philosophy of DPs =#1 and various prominent game features are useless, this game would be boring and have little appeal as everyone played one of the 2-3 roles and the same small cycle of best classes, skills and feats for those roles.
@bob, your character is not as bad as some people are trying to make you believe. They just believe that there is only one way (or very limited ways) to play aspects of the game. Since your way is not their way, they have given you a poor rating.
Would you say there's a 1 level dip that's possible with the above build? And is the current one better than the original build posted?
Any thoughts as to whether 1 level Holy Vindicator would be better or 1 level in Dual-Cursed Lore Oracle w/ Misfortune and Sidestep Secret?
I stand by Caravan Bond being a good battlefield control tactic, when stacked w/ Dimensional Hop. If I read that right I can use my move action to let melee form flanks, retreat or get in line for a charge.
Dipping is always possible. Personally, I don't like it for a caster because I'm a level behind getting my new wonderful goodies. Many people stand by it. Not saying it can't be powerful, but not my thing.
I would say your latest build is quite a bit more versatile and consistent. I didn't think the first was necessarily bad, but very very specialized.
I would not buy gloves of first aid, scroll of breath of life, and prepare breath of life. All three seems too much. I haven't seen nap stack and greater magic weapon be all that useful in PFS. Rarely a chance to rest and most martials already have a +2 or better magic weapon by the time you can get the spell (but you can ask around on that one before mission start).
I like the communal buff spells you have chosen.
I'd take some ranks in UMD, sense motive, and diplomacy. Maybe buy a mask of stony demeanor.
Might consider a wand of protection fom evil in case the fighter needs multiple new saves to get rid of the charm person effect.
Enjoy!
My 2 cp are:
(- For a pure healer, pick the Life Oracle and forget about the cleric part.)
- My personal preference is a Sarenrae cleric with Fire/Healing, when playing a cleric. It gives me later on some nukes to play with :)
Our DM interprets the Healing domain power different from the feat, so it is better than usually, though.
Luck and Travel are pretty good domains, of course.
- Get UMD, which makes a CHA that high count for something, which gives more options. If necessary drop Heal, which is covered by your spells.
- I would pick only selective channel and forget about the other feats related to it, but then I play usually my Life oracle and dont need extra relevation. Since I am the main healer, I am fine with using channel occasionally during battle as standard action (after my buff/debuff thing is done, I am free), so Quick Channel wouldn't be on my list. Extra channel is tempting, though.
Liberation Channel is also a nice option, even if I won't take it.
- It is probably an Oracle thing, but I would pick up Heighten Spell at 9th. It can tack a little oomph to a needed save-or-suck and it is prerequisite for Quicken Spell. It is not so easy to use as with a spontaneous caster, though.
As to combat healing is inefficient...maybe it is, but I wouldn't know. In our games you need a full healer, especially past 10th level.
Enabling/debuffing and controlling works fine for a cleric, if you are that kind of player. Damage is not all there is to it :)