[Dreamscarred Press] Ultimate Psionics Cryptic and Int to damage


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The cryptic´s disrupt pattern gives int to damage.
The "brand" insight as a swift action adds int to damage untill the enxt round.
Power specialisation adds Int to damage when expending psionic focus.

So, very easily by level 5 it´s possible to get int 3 times to damage.
Is this intended and supposed to stack?
Disrupt pattern is always a standard action, so it´s not that bad somehow, but still strong.
At level 5 20 Int is reachable with a simple Int headband, so we look at 3d6+15 damage with a touch attack standaed action and a swift action.

Any thoughts? Just want to confirm that.


Psionic focus takes a full-round action to regain once it's been expended. It's not something you can do every round. Branding pattern also requires a ranged touch attack to work, in addition to disrupt pattern landing.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

There's also still some confusion as to whether you can add the same stat to an ability more than once; James Jacobs said no and the official FAQ still hasn't been issued. I'm uncertain as to whether or not those abilities were written believing they stacked.


I'm pretty sure it's been established - as Ssalarn says possibly not in print - that the bonuses don't stack. If you get Wis to AC from two sources, you don't get double the bonus, for instance. Think of these as named bonuses; your "Int bonus" can't stack with your "Int bonus".


Anguish wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's been established - as Ssalarn says possibly not in print - that the bonuses don't stack. If you get Wis to AC from two sources, you don't get double the bonus, for instance. Think of these as named bonuses; your "Int bonus" can't stack with your "Int bonus".

I'm gonna let it be known that I personally think this is a really, really bad interpretation, especially since it ignores the currently established bonus types; that is, if I add my wis modifier as a deflection bonus to AC, and I then add my wis modifier as a dodge bonus, I am not stacking "wis bonus" with "wis bonus". I am stacking a deflection and a dodge, with my wis modifier being checked to determine the precise amount - not variety - of the bonus.


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Let's break this down.

Hayato Ken wrote:
The cryptic´s disrupt pattern gives int to damage.
Correct.
Quote:
The "brand" insight as a swift action adds int to damage untill the enxt round.
Kind of. As a swift action, you get to make a ranged touch attack. If that hits, then yes, add Int to damage until next round.
Quote:
Power specialisation adds Int to damage when expending psionic focus.
Again, kind of. Power Specialization applies to Psionic Powers alone (a case can be made for psi-like abilities, but that's not the point). Disrupt Pattern is not a Power.
Quote:
At level 5 20 Int is reachable with a simple Int headband, so we look at 3d6+15 damage with a touch attack standard action and a swift action.

Well, it's actually 3d6+5 (4d6+10 on a crit) with a possible +5 bonus. Seems comparable to a greatsword-swinging Barbarian, considering firing rays into melee can be tricky at low levels.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Prince of Knives wrote:
Anguish wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's been established - as Ssalarn says possibly not in print - that the bonuses don't stack. If you get Wis to AC from two sources, you don't get double the bonus, for instance. Think of these as named bonuses; your "Int bonus" can't stack with your "Int bonus".

I'm gonna let it be known that I personally think this is a really, really bad interpretation, especially since it ignores the currently established bonus types; that is, if I add my wis modifier as a deflection bonus to AC, and I then add my wis modifier as a dodge bonus, I am not stacking "wis bonus" with "wis bonus". I am stacking a deflection and a dodge, with my wis modifier being checked to determine the precise amount - not variety - of the bonus.

If they were presented like that "a dodge bonus equal to your Int bonus" they would stack. But when they're just "add your Int bonus to damage" they're basically separate abilities doing the exact same thing. It be like taking two feats that both add your shield bonus to your saves; since they're both adding the same thing, no stacky.


Prince of Knives wrote:
Anguish wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's been established - as Ssalarn says possibly not in print - that the bonuses don't stack. If you get Wis to AC from two sources, you don't get double the bonus, for instance. Think of these as named bonuses; your "Int bonus" can't stack with your "Int bonus".

I'm gonna let it be known that I personally think this is a really, really bad interpretation, especially since it ignores the currently established bonus types; that is, if I add my wis modifier as a deflection bonus to AC, and I then add my wis modifier as a dodge bonus, I am not stacking "wis bonus" with "wis bonus". I am stacking a deflection and a dodge, with my wis modifier being checked to determine the precise amount - not variety - of the bonus.

I was going to reply to this, but Ssalarn made the point very well.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Justin Sane wrote:
Quote:
Power specialisation adds Int to damage when expending psionic focus.
Again, kind of. Power Specialization applies to Psionic Powers alone (a case can be made for psi-like abilities, but that's not the point). Disrupt Pattern is not a Power.
Quote:

Let´s check the language:

Power Specialization (Psionic) wrote:


You deal more damage with your powers.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (ray), manifester level 4th.
Benefit: With rays and ranged touch attack powers that deal damage, you deal an extra 2 hit points of damage. If you expend your psionic focus when you manifest a ray or a ranged touch attack power that deals damage, you add your key ability bonus to the damage (instead of adding 2).
Disrupt Pattern (Su): wrote:

...

As a standard action, the cryptic can make a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet, firing a rayof black energy at the target. If the attack is successful, the cryptic deals 1d6 points of damage + additional damage equal to the cryptic’s Intelligence modifier.
Branding Pattern (Su): wrote:
As a swift action, the cryptic can manipulate the pattern of one enemy to “mark” them as a ranged touch attack. Until the cryptic’s next turn, each time the cryptic makes a successful attack against that enemy, she deals an additional amount of hit point damage equal to her Intelligence modifier.

Bolded parts i think important.

1. Disrupt pattern is a ray and power specialisation names rays. Ok it also says "manifest" later, but i´m unsure if that really restricted to psionic powers.
2. All three possibilities add the INT modifier as an untyped bonus to damage. One says "key ability bonus to the damage", the other two "additional damage equal to INT modifier". Not sure why they would not stack.

I guess Justin Sane´s is a valid concern. Perhaps i should take that to the DP board. There is another feat, improved disruption, which gives +1 damage per dice.

Just to make that clear, i´m not searching for loopholes, just thinking on what to do with my cryptic and i don´t really like that traps stuff, since it´s very complicated and wonky. All of those feats would be a pretty dedicated build and i think the damage could be allright on that level i would get there, especially since this will always stay one attack per round.


Power specialization only works on powers, not class abilities. Also, the attack is max range of 30 feet, and will be half damage if the cryptic does not have the creature as his active type.

Benefit: With rays and ranged touch attack powers that deal damage, you deal an extra 2 hit points of damage. If you expend your psionic focus when you manifest a ray or a ranged touch attack power that deals damage, you add your key ability bonus to the damage (instead of adding 2).

It might be worth noting that you can fire more than one of these(disrupting strike) per round with a 4th level power.


Spoiler:
Messed up quote tags make me angry. Preview your posts, people![/joke]

You bolded the wrong parts. Blope has it right, even tho Disrupt Pattern is a ray, it's not a Power.

But I see no trouble in Branding Pattern stacking with Disrupt Pattern. I mean, why wouldn't two class abilities not synergise? I mean, you're not actually playing a Rogue, are you? :p
[Edit]Bear in mind, Branding Pattern requires its own attack before you can add the bonus damage: "As a swift action, the cryptic can manipulate the pattern of one enemy to “mark” them as a ranged touch attack"

That said, if you really want to focus on it, try going with the "usual" archery feats. Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot to make sure you hit, and Deadly Aim would make that one attack hit *hard*.

PS: I'd never looked closely at the Cryptic before. Half-wondering why not, now :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mh, so power specialisation is for psions mainly?
Wouldn´t work with the wilder attack then either right?

The only touch attack power i know of is energy ray so far though.

Edit: sorry for the messed up quote^^

Archery feats sound good for that, already have point blank shot.
But hey, im kinda playing it like a ranged rogue.
Would love a feat or feature though that extends those 30 feet. Perhaps making it a normal attack after 30 feat without INT then or something along those lines.


Yeah, pretty much. There are a few others, here and there.


There are many cases in game where one can gain the same stat to the same roll.

Magi very blatantly gain their INT twice on concentration checks, and a paladin who is smiting and casts Bladed Dash will gain his Charisma twice on the attack roll.

It's not unheard of.


You can't deadly aim ranged touch attacks just like how you can't power attack touch attacks.

(Note that touch attacks and attacks that target touch AC are separate categories and that's why Deadly Aim works on guns)


Disrupt Pattern and Branding stack

The damage on Disrupt pattern is simply the math used for it's base damage. It is not a "int bonus to damage"

The Branding insight is a int bonus to damage, regardless of the source of the damage.

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