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The GMG is advice, nothing else, so reading it wouldn't/shouldnt "pigeonhole" the GM! :)
Also i personally dont agree that the dungeons/scenarioes shouldnt include traps if there are no trap-finders in the party..! For a variety of reasons:
1) There are others ways to handle traps, than trapfinding. As you mention using Perception, Dispel Magic, summons, and also common sense and caution works well too (!),
2) If you remove all traps because the party does not have a dedicated trap-finder, do you then also remove damage if they havent got a healer? or give out more magic items if they cant craft, or suddenly take out pits, chasms, clefts etc, if they forgot to buy rope/grappling hooks/ways of flying etc ?Where is the challenge in that then?
Read my post again. Nowhere did I say that it was anything other than a "suggestion".
If I'm making a dungeon and I know my group doesn't have anything in the way of taking care of traps, I'm going to make them in a way that they should be found and avoided without needing "trapfinding". And since everyone maxes perception, this should be relatively easy to do. I mean what's the point of purposefully making your dungeon a giant deathtrap unless your goal is to outright kill the party? As a GM, it's your job to facilitate fun. So if your idea of fun is killing them off because they don't conform to your idea of a well-rounded party, then you're going to find yourself without anyone to run through dungeons you make soon enough.
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The trap creation rules aren't very helpful. What is helpful is remembering that rules exist to help adjudicate player actions, not to restrict GM creativity. By the RAW, the GM's decisions trump the RAW.
While I respect the option of Rule 0, I'd rather have a well designed trap creation system.
Needing to use Rule 0 just tells me the system is busted.
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I am biased but will suggest an oracle with the seeker archetype. Sure, you are adding another divine caster but oracles have limited spells known and are highly themed classes so you should be selecting spells that fit and enhance your theme which means that you spare less likely to step on the clerics toes. Furthermore where your choices overlap you can serve to allow the cleric to prepare things he would otherwise not have and oracles often get several arcane spells or spells from other class lists added to their spells known.
Consider that oracles get 4 skill points per level and that with a marginal investment in int and/or being human, you'll receive 5-6 you will have plenty of ranks to work with for trap finding as a seeker and other things.
The comments pertaining to traps being disabled by horses and tanks are true but only in a limited sense. An old-school DM will have traps that summon things, destroy pathways, trap people, separate members, alert enemies and so on. When this happens all the ac and HP are meaningless. The real objective was to not trigger the trap. Sending an eidolon in to have the bridge collapse and alert the bad guys that you're coming just made your adventure more difficult.
Also, as I have been playing a seeker oracle for some time now, prepare to be in bucket loads of trouble more often than not. Trap finding means being in front and being first subjected to most failed attempts. It's a pretty fun, edge of your seat way to play.
Third rub: Only Rogues can disable magic traps, as per the text of "Trapfinding" ability.Well, Rogues, or Urban Rangers (mentioned upthread and again by you), or Trap Breaker Alchemists (mentioned upthread and again by you), or Archaeologist Bards (mentioned upthread) or ANYONE with the Trap Finder Trait (mentioned upthread). That was the point of the thread from the start, right?
The problem isn't finding the traps, any idiot fighter can find a trap gracelessly. The problem is disarming them safely.
futhermore only those with trapfinding may disable magical traps with the disable device skill.
other options are still open beyond using the disable device skill.
In the game I'm currently playing the spell sundering Barbarian is the one who usually disables the magic traps.
I second the wand of mount/SM1/etc.
Every time I throw traps at the party in my games, they, despite having no rogue, archaeologist, urban ranger, etc., find a way to disable it. They get creative. And that's just when it's mechanical.
When it's magical, they just hit it with dispel.
I second the wand of mount/SM1/etc.
Every time I throw traps at the party in my games, they, despite having no rogue, archaeologist, urban ranger, etc., find a way to disable it. They get creative. And that's just when it's mechanical.
When it's magical, they just hit it with dispel.
in some cases the mechanical ones are harder as you cannot just dispel them.
The other night I kind of disabled a trap with my 1st level Fighter. We were about to open our very first treasure chest, and it seemed likely that it would be trapped. My PC had some weird equipment like string and fishing hooks, so he rigged up a hook on a string to open the chest from a distance. I felt rewarded for my efforts when a cloud of poison gas puffed out of the chest as it opened.
On the other hand, when my 3rd level Fighter in a different game advised taking a chest away to open it cautiously the party Barbarian simply smashed it, heedless not only of traps but any potions or delicate treasures it might have contained. Everything turned out fine. I have no way of knowing if the first DM changed things to reward me for being careful or if the second DM changed things to reward the Barbarian for being brave.
in some cases the mechanical ones are harder as you cannot just dispel them.I second the wand of mount/SM1/etc.
Every time I throw traps at the party in my games, they, despite having no rogue, archaeologist, urban ranger, etc., find a way to disable it. They get creative. And that's just when it's mechanical.
When it's magical, they just hit it with dispel.
Yep. But they're the ones that don't require trapfinding. Thus, any spellcaster will fill the role of "trapfinding" rather easily. Any chump with ranks in disable device can handle the rest.
Yep. But they're the ones that don't require trapfinding. Thus, any spellcaster will fill the role of "trapfinding" rather easily. Any chump with ranks in disable device can handle the rest.in some cases the mechanical ones are harder as you cannot just dispel them.I second the wand of mount/SM1/etc.
Every time I throw traps at the party in my games, they, despite having no rogue, archaeologist, urban ranger, etc., find a way to disable it. They get creative. And that's just when it's mechanical.
When it's magical, they just hit it with dispel.
So, let us say 4 magic traps. 50/50 to Dispel. That's EIGHT Dispel magics- one more than even a Sorc gets. That means no Haste, no Fireball, no Fly, etc.
Any smart trap setter sets up a few cheapo alarm or similar spells or anything that will LOOK like a magic trap.
And "any chump" means someone with the skill pretty well maxed out.
Get a wand of mount.
Get a wand of mount.
How do mounts open chests or doors?
What happens when the trap is set to blow up where the party is?
What happens if the trap is set to destroy the goods if set off?
And if it's a alarm type trap, you have done exactly what they wanted- congratulations!
This is creative thinking and should work once.
So, let us say 4 magic traps. 50/50 to Dispel. That's EIGHT Dispel magics- one more than even a Sorc gets. That means no Haste, no Fireball, no Fly, etc.
Any smart trap setter sets up a few cheapo alarm or similar spells or anything that will LOOK like a magic trap.
And "any chump" means someone with the skill pretty well maxed out.
So that is one of the 8 skill points the Int primary spellcaster is getting from the start. And as they gain levels they will gain more as they will be increasing their Int with level ups, something the rogue wont be doing. And they will also be investing in an Int headband so if traps do become an issue they can simply gain a maxxed out skill immediately.
Also the ability to disable magical traps is a simple level 2 spell so you don't have to bother messing around with dispel magic.
Finally if your smart trap setter is scattering around alarm spells then your rogue is completely screwed as they are not traps, cannot be detected with perception and cannot be disabled with disable device. Your advance rogue scout just alerted the enemy and engages the encounter on his own. That isn't likely to go well for him.
Well, DD is not a class skill for spellcasters, and it's DEX based, not INT based.
Waht "simple level 2 spell" is that?
Sez who? Looks like a trap to me. Besides, like I said "or similar spells". And a Rogue can easily have Detect Magic, not to mention Bards get it.
Get a wand of mount.How do mounts open chests or doors?Carefully. /snark
What happens when the trap is set to blow up where the party is?Send the horse ahead of the party.
What happens if the trap is set to destroy the goods if set off?What if the trap is set to destroy the rogue if set off?
And if it's a alarm type trap, you have done exactly what they wanted- congratulations!
This is creative thinking and should work once.
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A lot depends on the type of Trap. Standard PFRPG traps are usually type of random damage/effect. And either you able to bypass/disable the trap or repair the damage/condition that you get from triggering it. "Trapfinding" helps with the former, but there are many ways to get pass it. The basic philosophy of PFRPG is no one trait should be required to progress the adventure.
Then there are the old Grimtooth Traps. These are more like puzzles that will kill you if you guess wrong. I find "Trapfinding" these also moot. If the players miss the cues then everyone dies.
In the end, Trapfinding is nice, but player creativity is more important in dealing with traps.
thanks to all for advices, but it seems my dm intercepted my conversation here and said to me: Do what you really want to play, not just what the group's lacking in...
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So that is one of the 8 skill points the Int primary spellcaster is getting from the start.
Because when I use point buy I know that if I out my humans stat bonus in Int, it really counts as a +4. And when I roll them d6's for stats, at least one of the three actually come up 7+.
Also the ability to disable magical traps is a simple level 2 spell so you don't have to bother messing around with dispel magic.
Naturally. Because, as is the case in all hypothetical scenarios, if a wizard could do it, then they obviously are doing it. Spells per day be darned! When I want trap finding or to prove that anybody can do it or to have proof that rogues are bad because I can do everything they can, I always play a wizard and then just take my 2-3 spells per day that are available in that slot and show them how it's done.
Meanwhile, in another thread I will post about how I also have prepared and known specific spells for another specific situation because you know, I could! I'm a wizard after all. It's one of my many tricks.
Finally if your smart trap setter is scattering around alarm spells then your rogue is completely screwed as they are not traps, cannot be detected with perception and cannot be disabled with disable device.
OK, on this you are right. Anybody would be screwed except a caster who had detect magic up and then also had dispel memorized/known and the slots available to cast it.
But you missed the point. The point was that once you get past the idea that traps are purely there to deal damage and consume resources, trap finding becomes a real issue. Maybe you did not read some posts above or maybe you read them and ignores them so let me repeat what's already been said:
If a trap is designed to alert the enemies to your presence giving them time to prepare, buff and position themselves, you will have a much more difficult time. If a trap is designed to separate the party, you're in trouble. Traps can incapacitate, or render progress undone and they can cost you a lot of time or put players in some really nasty situations.
No amount of summoning monsters or mounts from a wand or unseen servants can stop the bridge from collapsing forcing you now to use fly, or go another way. In a home game there might not be another way.
What happens when the trap is a cave in and the mount triggers it? Now you have to make strength checks, take damage, are possibly pick d, maybe have a time limit and air is a concern if it is higher level. Some magic traps are also specific, or designed to catch a group. The hound archon moves 20 feat ahead, setting off the trap that causes lava to fill the tunnel you are all in. The unseen servant fails to trigger the trap. Next thesummoned lantern archon's fail to do anything. Finally the paladin or barbarian move ahead but nothing happens so everyone moves forward and then the glyph activates as it was set to trigger at a # of bodies or humanoids or whatever.
Yes, having a spell for it is nice but how many do you expect a wizard to reasonably prepare? 2, maybe 3? Possibly using extend spell and a third level slot on one. And then only at a level where they were high enough to comfortably do this. So closer to 8-9. Otherwise you're now limited in how many wizardly things you can do. The duration is useful but in the kinds of situations where you know there should be traps, there is often travel time between them so this spell will rarely last long enough to cover more than 1-2 at a time. And sure, you may only see that many traps but then the dungeon may have 8, 3-5 of which you might encounter.
Honestly, it's easier having a dedicated trapfinder and it is helpful having a spellcaster with this spell for backup. Schroedingers wizard is just playing second fiddle here, not the trapfinder.