Auction Houses, Flea Markets, Wandering Merchants and Individual Vendors


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

This has been discussed in the past, but I have not seen a very recent discussion, nor did I wish to necro a two-year old thread, so here are some thoughts on how auction houses and markets might work.

Settlement Auction House – This structure would be built within a settlement and would allow anyone to place sell orders for items on the auction house for anyone with access to that auction house to purchase. The sponsoring settlement could earn income in a number of ways based on what they choose to use as their income producing function (more on this below). This settlement auction house could also list buy orders where the buyer states what he/she wishes to purchase and deposits the cash in an escrow account so when a seller sees an item or commodity they have in surplus they could execute the order. The seller would have to have brought the goods to the auction house to be stored in the settlement warehouse, for a fee.

Settlement Flea Market – This type of market would consist of one building with numerous market stalls. Each market stall could be rented out by a character to sell their goods, and each week a flat fee would be charged by the settlement to the character no matter what the total sales would be. This shop has limited storage of goods, so a flea market stall could not sell 10,000 bushels of grain, but could sell armor, weapons, personal gear, some buffs, and commodities in limited quantity.

Wandering Merchants and Merchant Caravans – Traveling merchants and gypsy caravans could wander the playable area and sell a few items, or provide some limited low level training, or occasionally some higher level training if the specific NPC were known and could be sought out in dangerous areas. The caravans would plod along the main roads, going from one NPC town to another, and may, if practical, set up just outside of town to sell some limited goods, buy some limited goods (arms, armor, food, raw materials in very limited supply, whatever would be a realistic inventory for a small, nomadic tribe) and possibly provide limited training if alignment and reputation allowed.

These caravans and individuals might not be easily found, as some NPCs might have a lower reputation but still be available for training specific skill sets under specific circumstances. For example, a small witches coven might have a “Speak with the Dead” spell, and would not normally ever train another character, but if the right alignment and reputation individual approached and had a token item, perhaps a rare creature drop or quest item, for a fee (or trade for an amount of rare spell components) the witches would teach a spell (or a feat, as the situation dictates).

Individual Vendors – If player housing is ever implemented a character could hire a single vendor to sell goods from the house (as was done in Ultima Online, and it worked great). While there are obvious limitations on how many vendors could sell goods from one house (most likely only one) and there would be a limited supply of goods (a specialty merchant selling knives, swords, shields, reagents, etc.) this option might be of limited value to the seller, but would be a convenient additional alternative vendor option under the right circumstances.

Fees, taxes and commissions

To keep the economy going and to incentivize settlements to have some sort of auction house or market, settlements can charge a fee, tax, or commission on sales taking place in any hex that settlement controls. Here are some examples of how the fees might work:

In an auction market:

A seller wishes to sell a fine steel breastplate for 500 gold, and lists it on the AH for 500.

Listing fee (Changed!)– Seller pays the settlement a fee per breastplate sold. If the fee is 25 gold per item, each item is likely to have a higher average value than a small item (usually) or low value necessity. If the seller lists 10 items he/she would pay 250 gold to the settlement whether the items sold or not.

Transaction Fee – Similar to the above, but the seller can list as many breastplates for sale as they wish, and only pay the fee on the items sold.

Sales Tax – Seller posts the breastplate at a 500 gold buyout. If it sells at 500 buyout, the buyer pays 525, with 25 gold going to the settlement and the seller getting 500 gold.

Percent of Sales – A seller posts a variety of items of varying value, encumbrance and weight and the settlement charges a percent of the total sales of all items sold. Similar to a sales tax, but is aggregated at the time the seller cashes out his/her sales.

Combination – A settlement may charge a combination of the above fees or taxes to generate revenue based on the types of items normally sold at their market.

Storage fee – The settlement could charge a storage fee to the seller based on the value, encumbrance and/or weight or the merchandise to be sold. Using this mechanic may allow the seller to have an item for sale for a longer period of time as long as they were willing to pay the daily storage cost for the item. An example of this would be a wagon, a mount, or bulk goods, and may also require the settlement spend extra gold, DI and construction costs for a larger warehouse area adjacent to the auction house or market area.

Goblin Squad Member

How much of this is based off of what we know the devs had said?

Goblin Squad Member

I'm not sure how much discussion you're looking for. It mostly seems pretty well reasoned, so I'll dive into the minutiae.

A couple of small grammatical thoughts: I'd replace "Sales Fee" with "Listing Fee," since the cost isn't contingent upon a sale at all. Then you might, or might not, change "transaction fee" to "sales fee."

In general, I'd be inclined to reserve "fee" for something that isn't dependent on the value, so a sales/listing fee would be flat (or, at least, flat across a category (like under 5, 5 to 25, 25+ etc.)), while a sales/listing tax would be value dependent.

Other than that, the notion of percent of sales seems potentially cumbersome, since it could force the settlement to hang onto records, and potentially be denied their cut for an undetermined period. A participant who lists a bunch of small stuff and sells it, but never claims their cut is clogging up the books of the settlement, possibly forever. At the least, it would need a deadline for clearing before it is treated as abandoned.

Goblin Squad Member

Wandering merchants should definitely be a PC thing, not NPC. You could have some sort of "gypsy company" without any settlement base (or possibly just a pro forma one for support rules reasons) moving from settlement to settlement to trade or offer themselves for temp jobs, possibly of a shadier sort... That could basically begin as soon as settlements arrive.

I'm not really in favor of any automated system and would much prefer actual player interactions instead. However, I understand that some don't want to just stand around waiting for customers...

Goblin Squad Member

A face-to-face transaction model doesn't scale when everything you wear, wield, use, or consume has passed through the hands of multiple commoners, experts, and merchants before reaching the end user. An auction house or bazaar which supports buy and sell orders along the lines of Eve's markets will be a necessity; everything else is optional color.

Goblin Squad Member

I might add, as has been mentioned before, it would be nice to have a buyer's market as well as a sellers market so if I wanted to but 200 bushels of corn I could list that transaction and the price I was willing to pay and if someone showed up with a surplus of corn, they could just sell it directly to me. EVE has a good market system, but perhaps a bit too sophisticated for PFO (based on the theme of the game and the technology available in the PFO setting).

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin Steele wrote:
I might add, as has been mentioned before, it would be nice to have a buyer's market as well as a sellers market so if I wanted to but 200 bushels of corn I could list that transaction and the price I was willing to pay and if someone showed up with a surplus of corn, they could just sell it directly to me. EVE has a good market system, but perhaps a bit too sophisticated for PFO (based on the theme of the game and the technology available in the PFO setting).

Ryan has talked about how the Market will probably anonymize most items, so that you don't actually see who placed the Buy or Sell Order. To my understanding, when you place a Buy Order, you'll automatically get the cheapest Sell Order that meets your criteria. The way I read that, if you place a Buy Order for 200 bushels of corn for 100 Coin per bushel, you'll automatically get the 75 bushels available at 98 Coin per bushel, and then the 90 bushes available at 99 Coin per bushel, then 35 of the 200 bushels available at 100 Coin per bushel. An open question is whether you'll automatically buy the 126 bushels available at 100 Coin per bushel if that's all that's available. You might not want it if it doesn't complete your Buy Order, but perhaps you can check an option to allow partial fulfillment.


In EVE they have minimum lot size for buy orders, so if they did something similar it would only buy lots in the correct size.

Generally speaking I do like the idea of different ways to generate revenue from a settlement's markets. Granular control over the numbers and who they apply to will be key. However I expect a breadth of options will most likely be ignored for the most efficient/least intrusive at least for primary hubs.

True edge of the world wilderness markets might get away with other options just from a lack of competition.

Edit:
Something else I would like to see eventually is some simple investment/loan like controls. Don't have to be super in depth but just enough to allow a relatively safe and secure way to handle collecting funds and dispersing them.

Goblin Squad Member

"They" have discussed contracts a bit. Having a robust contract system in place will be important further down the road. I can see many uses for contracts of the writers choosing, materials, construction labor, services, transportation and escort duty...all sorts of stuff.

Goblin Squad Member

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Hardin Steele wrote:
services, and escort duty...all sorts of stuff.

I read that bit wrong and all I could think of was a Dorito stained basement dweller on teamspeak saying in a gruff southern accent "My name is Galadriel, it's 20 gold an hour for whatever you want."

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah...not THAT kind of escort...but I like the way you're thinkin'!

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Player-owned shops are fun to set up, but I think it would be hard for in-home stores or market stalls to compete with the convenience of buy and sell orders on a market.

Player shops had a speed advantage against the old auction-only markets (with no Buy It Now button), but I don't think today's players would put up with a system that required an auction to run its course before they could pick up their purchases.

The game will start without player housing, and early buildings aren't predicted to have functional interiors (as of the last dev statements that I recall). That means players in EE will have time to get spoiled by a market interface before player stores or stalls could even exist. Unless market taxes/fees/surcharges were pretty steep, I don't think dispersed shops and stalls would catch on when they became available.

Goblin Squad Member

*In baritone voice with a Georgian accent*

Hi everyone, I'm Galadriel and welcome to my establishment. Please sit on right down over yander and see what we have to offer. We have girls of all races. Tusky half-orcs, Wild wood elves, Gnaughty Gnomes, Haughty Humans, Demure Dwarves, and, if you act quickly, we have a special on halflings. Two, for the price of one.

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