Artanthos |
Artanthos wrote:Marroar Gellantara wrote:Dwarf with good will save, 14 base wisdom, iron will, will trait = 18
2+12+2+2+1Not a fair standard, but not impossible.
Human wizard. 14 wisdom, will trait, iron will.
12+1+2+2 = 17
Feats are much more precious to non-fighters, the relative opportunity cost is higher.
Dwarf wizard = 19
It's not impossible.
All you had to do was give up a few points from your the wizards primary stat and an extra feat.
At this point your quibbles of the fighter being inferior because it is 1 point off from the wizard in will saves, before magic items.
At level 20, magic items will be involved. Anything shutting down magic items also shuts down the magic required to force a will save.
Nicos |
Nicos wrote:Artanthos wrote:That is a good number. THe fighter should not be far behind (and he will be wiht he same stats, feats and trait expenditure)Marroar Gellantara wrote:Dwarf with good will save, 14 base wisdom, iron will, will trait = 18
2+12+2+2+1Not a fair standard, but not impossible.
Human wizard. 14 wisdom, will trait, iron will.
12+1+2+2 = 17
Feats are much more precious to non-fighters, the relative opportunity cost is higher.
Read the post.
The fighter was higher.
Ok,The number is first give was 18 (then I hcanged it to 15 before you quoted me). Not suere if you are talking about that number.
Still, thinking about it, I will not have that much problems with that number.
Scavion |
At level 1, the fighter can have an an ac of: 24 (FF 23, Touch 11); this is with fullplate, tower shield, and a dex of minimum 12.
Despite a fullplate being out of wealth of a 1st level character, a Barbarian can still match it if he wants to.
Umbranus |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
It has its drawbacks, yes. But calling it a trap is a bit strong imo.
Just yesterday we had a fight where superstition could have killed my pc but I'd still always take it again, because there are more fights in which it saves my behind.Anzyr |
Marroar Gellantara wrote:I'm curious as to what is the "core assumption" you think Anzyr wants to see redesigned?Both systems would allow him to play martials as depicted in RWBY while still allowing characters thematically designed as mages.
The problem is not that characters in Pathfinder are incapable of doing the things you see in RWBY. The problem is martials, but more specifically Fighters and Rogues have problems doing it. Barbarians get lots of benefits that go beyond anything the Fighter can pick up from their feats and these are useful options. Breaking spells is amazing, but so is Pounce and a lot of the other rage powers. And Casters are just fine at doing it. Psionics in particular is great at working around this limitation (which is why I love the system so much).
The problem is that in order to be an awesome martial you are better off being not being the iconic martial class, the Fighter. This is because people who really want to play low level campaigns feel the need to force "realism" onto a high level Fighter, constraining him to a low level paradigm.
Petty Alchemy RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I do play casters. I take Improved Initiative if I feel I need it (a bland but effective feat), and the rest is pretty much Extra Hex/Extra Revelation. If I'm playing a different caster that doesn't have Extra [Awesome Feature] as an option, I can take Spell Focus. But at no point do I feel I have to have it, nor is it especially taxing.
Your level 5 caster has invested all but one feat into a chain? That's a fancy way of saying two feats. I assume you mean Spell Focus Conj. -> Augment Summoning.
Anzyr |
I do play casters. I take Improved Initiative if I feel I need it (a bland but effective feat), and the rest is pretty much Extra Hex/Extra Revelation. If I'm playing a different caster that doesn't have Extra [Awesome Feature] as an option, I can take Spell Focus. But at no point do I feel I have to have it, nor is it especially taxing.
Your level 5 caster has invested all but one feat into a chain? That's a fancy way of saying two feats. I assume you mean Spell Focus Conj. -> Augment Summoning.
Woah now! For a whole third feat you could get Superior Summons. But ya, Caster "feat chains" are extremely short compared to martial ones (ahahaha Whirlwind Attack... oh god.. I can't stop laughing.)
DominusMegadeus |
Petty Alchemy wrote:Woah now! For a whole third feat you could get Superior Summons. But ya, Caster "feat chains" are extremely short compared to martial ones (ahahaha Whirlwind Attack... oh god.. I can't stop laughing.)I do play casters. I take Improved Initiative if I feel I need it (a bland but effective feat), and the rest is pretty much Extra Hex/Extra Revelation. If I'm playing a different caster that doesn't have Extra [Awesome Feature] as an option, I can take Spell Focus. But at no point do I feel I have to have it, nor is it especially taxing.
Your level 5 caster has invested all but one feat into a chain? That's a fancy way of saying two feats. I assume you mean Spell Focus Conj. -> Augment Summoning.
I remember building a fighter/weapon master in Neverwinter Nights that got whirlwind attack, and I felt like such a boss. It was useless as much as I remember, but I felt so accomplished that I had it anyway.
wraithstrike |
DrDeth wrote:I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
I think that the increased saves and general incredible durability of the Barbarian over the Fighter would likely make the buff comparison a wash. I would think that most buffs would be online before getting into a tussle and in those kinds of parties, would the Barbarian not know that he should delay his rage till the buffs come?
Plus Rage cycling is a thing.
In my group he gets his buffs before raging, and once the saves are up he almost never fails.
Rynjin |
Scavion wrote:In my group he gets his buffs before raging, and once the saves are up he almost never fails.DrDeth wrote:I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
I think that the increased saves and general incredible durability of the Barbarian over the Fighter would likely make the buff comparison a wash. I would think that most buffs would be online before getting into a tussle and in those kinds of parties, would the Barbarian not know that he should delay his rage till the buffs come?
Plus Rage cycling is a thing.
I dunno, I fail saves all the time.
Damn 1s.
wraithstrike |
DrDeth wrote:I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
In any case, Superstition has bad stuff to go along with the good. Just counted the Good is not fair.
I generally like to delay until after the casters (on the rare occasion I win Initiative over them, anyway).
And emergency Rage cycling is something a lot of people can get. Heart of the Fields, an Oracle dip, a Cord of Stubborn Resolve (which is super cheap), so in a pinch you can drop Rage, get healed, and bring it up again.
I don't generally use Rage cycling as a balance point because it just feels icky to me, but it IS an option you can use, and I don't see anything wrong with occasionally using it.
It was also fun when I was Dominated (sorta...still not sure what the hell that effect was, and I rolled a 1 on it) and the order was "Kill or incapacitate your teammates by any means necessary". Turns out, I'm basically immune to the party spellcasters via Eater of Magic and Strength Surge getting me out of the Sorcerer's favored Icy Prison spell.
Plus, most of the good buffs last 10 minutes/level, and thus can be cast beforehand. When you get a whopping +5 bonus out of normal Heroism, you don't need Greater, for example.
That was from a haunt, and you were supposed to eat them once they were knocked out.
wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:Scavion wrote:In my group he gets his buffs before raging, and once the saves are up he almost never fails.DrDeth wrote:I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
I think that the increased saves and general incredible durability of the Barbarian over the Fighter would likely make the buff comparison a wash. I would think that most buffs would be online before getting into a tussle and in those kinds of parties, would the Barbarian not know that he should delay his rage till the buffs come?
Plus Rage cycling is a thing.
I dunno, I fail saves all the time.
Damn 1s.
Yeah it seems the dice gods don't like you when it comes to saves.
Scavion |
wraithstrike wrote:Scavion wrote:In my group he gets his buffs before raging, and once the saves are up he almost never fails.DrDeth wrote:I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
I think that the increased saves and general incredible durability of the Barbarian over the Fighter would likely make the buff comparison a wash. I would think that most buffs would be online before getting into a tussle and in those kinds of parties, would the Barbarian not know that he should delay his rage till the buffs come?
Plus Rage cycling is a thing.
I dunno, I fail saves all the time.
Damn 1s.
We've been rolling pretty poorly havent we?
Covent |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Humm, If we optimize saves, facing a caster starting with a 20 casting stat that raises their casting stat in a reasonable way, the % chance of success on average is as follows. Please be aware this is with extremely optimized saves. Math is Here. Yes all of this math includes a +5 inherent bonus starting at level 11, however this is applied to both saves and DC's thus resulting in a wash as far as % success goes.
If you want to check the spreadsheet in my link it is much easier to see if downloaded.
Good Save VS Caster with Elemental Focus/Greater Elemental Focus and Spell Focus/Greater Spell focus = Average 52% chance of success.
Good Save VS Caster with Spell Focus/Greater Spell focus = Average 59% chance of success.
Good Save VS Caster = Average 61% chance of success.
Poor Save VS Caster with Elemental Focus/Greater Elemental Focus and Spell Focus/Greater Spell focus = Average 33% chance of success.
Poor Save VS Caster with Spell Focus/Greater Spell focus = Average 40% chance of success.
Poor Save VS Caster = Average 42% chance of success.
Good Save VS Caster with Elemental Focus/Greater Elemental Focus and Spell Focus/Greater Spell focus = Average 74% chance of success.
Good Save VS Caster with Spell Focus/Greater Spell focus = Average 81% chance of success.
Good Save VS Caster = Average 82% chance of success.
Poor Save VS Caster with Elemental Focus/Greater Elemental Focus and Spell Focus/Greater Spell focus = Average 52% chance of success.
Poor Save VS Caster with Spell Focus/Greater Spell focus = Average 62% chance of success.
Poor Save VS Caster = Average 64% chance of success.
What this means to me is that due to the relatively trivial difficulty in raising Save DC's via Racial/class abilities/feats/traits that unless a class gets a massive boost to its saves via a mechanic such as Divine Grace or Superstition, even those with good saves must invest in staying relevant and those with poor saves will have to invest extremely heavily and will still struggle.
In all honesty I see a poor save as a feat/trait tax as you are basically told "Take save feats and traits to cover your weakness, unless your weak save is bolstered by another ability or is your main stat.".
This is why Superstition is prized so highly and in my opinion its upsides heavily outweigh its downsides. Not even counting Witch Hunter, Eater of Magic, and Spell Sunder + Strength Surge.
Rynjin |
Rynjin wrote:We've been rolling pretty poorly havent we?wraithstrike wrote:Scavion wrote:In my group he gets his buffs before raging, and once the saves are up he almost never fails.DrDeth wrote:I have several issues with this comparo, and one is Superstition. It's highly situational and varies by group. If a group likes to use lots of in combat buff spells, and has longer combats where healing will be necessary, Superstition is a trap.
I think that the increased saves and general incredible durability of the Barbarian over the Fighter would likely make the buff comparison a wash. I would think that most buffs would be online before getting into a tussle and in those kinds of parties, would the Barbarian not know that he should delay his rage till the buffs come?
Plus Rage cycling is a thing.
I dunno, I fail saves all the time.
Damn 1s.
In our RotRL game Monday (the one Wraithstrike runs that I have my Barbarian again) I rolled eight 1s in a single encounter. Including rolling a 1 on a save, and then a 1 on the Eater of Magic re-roll. Both of which would have passed the save DC by like 3 if 1s weren't auto-fails.
If my Barbarian wasn't so buff *FLEX* it could have been really bad.
Scavion |
I remember when a minor demon seduced(And by seduced, she winked at me and I was like "Hell yeah!", but that was before I knew she was a demon) my Barbarian in a planar pirate game. Needless to say, he beat her to death with his gauntlets after she realized he wouldn't fail any saving throws as soon as he started raging.
That game was pretty tight. Oddly enough my guy was the straight man amongst a party of crazies hah! I was the only human amongst a Kobold, Strix, Dwarf, Dhampir, and a human synthesist who was convinced he was a dragon or something.
*Barbarian fist bump*
Anarchy_Kanya |
Anzyr wrote:Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.Just dropping in to say thanks for this. I probably wouldn't have found out about the new season for days if you hadn't mentioned it. :)
You can subscribe to their YT channel if you don't want to miss it.
Deadmanwalking |
Deadmanwalking wrote:You can subscribe to their YT channel if you don't want to miss it.Anzyr wrote:Anzyr PSA: Less the 45 minutes to go until RWBY Season 2 Episode 1 goes live.Just dropping in to say thanks for this. I probably wouldn't have found out about the new season for days if you hadn't mentioned it. :)
Eh. It's only relevant for a new season, I can just check regularly for ongoing ones. And I don't really subscribe to Youtube Channels, my Youtube usage is more sporadic than that...
AndIMustMask |
You know I just realized I forgot to add the extra +2 to-hit from Furious.
So the Barbarian has +1 to-hit over the Fighter as well.
fun fact: since furious increases your enhancement bonus, it also increases how much your courageous enchant grants to all those morale bonuses you're swimming in.
Thomas Long 175 |
Rynjin wrote:fun fact: since furious increases your enhancement bonus, it also increases how much your courageous enchant grants to all those morale bonuses you're swimming in.You know I just realized I forgot to add the extra +2 to-hit from Furious.
So the Barbarian has +1 to-hit over the Fighter as well.
It also counts towards bypassing DR's earlier :)
Artanthos |
Rynjin wrote:fun fact: since furious increases your enhancement bonus, it also increases how much your courageous enchant grants to all those morale bonuses you're swimming in.You know I just realized I forgot to add the extra +2 to-hit from Furious.
So the Barbarian has +1 to-hit over the Fighter as well.
Any high level character, regardless of class, should have permanent, wide ranging moral bonuses.
A single ioun stone, for example, grants a +1 moral bonus to all attacks, skills, and saving throws. With courageous, this grants all classes +3 to all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.
*I counted furious increasing the weapon enhancement mod to +7, and the increased moral bonuses, when I did my numerical comparison between fighter and barbarian.
Thomas Long 175 |
Anyone else never see or use an ion stone at any point in their time playing this game?
I know they are a thing, and I include them in all judgments, but how many of us actually do have stones floating around us at all times?
My 1st level characters :P
Edit: and indeed the +1 insight AC and +1 to attack or saves are excellent ioun stones as well
Marcus Robert Hosler |
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:I think people just slap them in Wayfinders.Anyone else never see or use an ion stone at any point in their time playing this game?
I know they are a thing, and I include them in all judgments, but how many of us actually do have stones floating around us at all times?
Ah I see. It's not in the PRD so that is why my groups haven't seen them. We only allow blanket permission to PRD material to prevent things like blood money and sacred geometry abuse.
Non-PRD material is treated like 3rd-party or homebrew in our group. Allowed if GM okays it.
The stones by themselves do very little.
Anzyr |
EvilPaladin wrote:Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:I think people just slap them in Wayfinders.Anyone else never see or use an ion stone at any point in their time playing this game?
I know they are a thing, and I include them in all judgments, but how many of us actually do have stones floating around us at all times?
Ah I see. It's not in the PRD so that is why my groups haven't seen them. We only allow blanket permission to PRD material to prevent things like blood money and sacred geometry abuse.
Non-PRD material is treated like 3rd-party or homebrew in our group. Allowed if GM okays it.
The stones by themselves do very little.
There are a lot of good cracked and flawed stone that are cheap. I mostly use the rules for implanting them to avoid targeting issues.
andreww |
Anyone else never see or use an ion stone at any point in their time playing this game?
I know they are a thing, and I include them in all judgments, but how many of us actually do have stones floating around us at all times?
I use the +1 initiative ioun stone on everyone.
I will buy the saves only boosting pale green one before upgrading a cloak of resistance from +2 to +3 as it is 1000gp cheaper than doing so.
The dusty rose prism is popular because an insight bonus to AC is rare.
The Clear Spindle in a Wayfinder has to be one of the most common ways of avoiding a lot of unpleasant status effects.
insaneogeddon |
People say zen archer is a specific build and archetype so should not be included but then include the highly specific beast totem superstitious invulnerable raging come and get me barbarian.. please explain?
And a martial artist monk with mantis style and ability focus can pretty much stun anything.
A strength of fighters is feats - use them to get supernatural powers ! I am strongly of the opinion to get real joy from a fighter only fighter feats should be used for fighter feats and fighting. All general feats should be used for racial heritage and wings or spell casting foxtails, elritch heritage, wild psionics,true name powers or any such thing supplements bring.
Its been mentioned tactician fighters are boss. Combine their 11th level ability with the feats bodyguard, arcane strike and combat reflexes and the items: gloves of arcane striking, benevolent armour, and a ring of tactical precision oh and the helpful trait - boost EVERY-ONES AC !
AndIMustMask |
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:Anyone else never see or use an ion stone at any point in their time playing this game?
I know they are a thing, and I include them in all judgments, but how many of us actually do have stones floating around us at all times?
I use the +1 initiative ioun stone on everyone.
I will buy the saves only boosting pale green one before upgrading a cloak of resistance from +2 to +3 as it is 1000gp cheaper than doing so.
The dusty rose prism is popular because an insight bonus to AC is rare.
The Clear Spindle in a Wayfinder has to be one of the most common ways of avoiding a lot of unpleasant status effects.
the competence and morale to damn-near-everything stones are worth every copper as well, despite the pricetag (the morale one moreso for people with courageous weapons)
Artanthos |
Anyone else never see or use an ion stone at any point in their time playing this game?
I know they are a thing, and I include them in all judgments, but how many of us actually do have stones floating around us at all times?
My level 7 magus in PFS currently has 5 ioun stones, 3 of which are implanted. My PFS wizard has 2 at level 5, but lacks the skill to implant them.
The rest of my characters characters acquire them in a similar fashion as funds permit.
Ashiel |
Anyone else never see or use an ion stone at any point in their time playing this game?
I know they are a thing, and I include them in all judgments, but how many of us actually do have stones floating around us at all times?
Yep. There's a bunch of good ones just in core. They've long, long been good targets for a continual flame ioun stone (particularly burnt out gray ioun stones, which were priced at 50 gp in 3.0). In the core books, here's a few common goodies.
1. Dusty rose Prism (5,000 gp): +1 insight to AC. +5% evasion is good since it stacks with all your other shwag. Much cheaper to get one of these than to upgrade your +2-whatever to a +3.
2. Pearly white Spindle (20,000 gp): The HP regeneration from this sucks, however it otherwise works like a ring of regeneration which means it makes you immune to bleed effects and auto-regenerates any missing appendages, which may be desirable in some cases and is a cheaper way to get immunity to Bleed damage than a 90,000 gp ring.
3. Pale Green Prism (30,000 gp): +1 competence bonus on attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks. Might not sound like a great investment, but it's effectively +5% to everything, and honestly tacking on another +1 to hit and +1 to all saving throws in addition to your enhancement and resistances bonuses is definitely worth it.
4. Orange Prism (30,000 gp): +1 caster level. Yes.
Most are generally very expensive unless you craft them yourself, but some are cheap enough that you occasionally see NPCs with them as well. Especially dragons (though I'll usually describe them as being lodged in the dragon's scales with other gems and such, with no real mechanical changes).
Anzyr |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
People say zen archer is a specific build and archetype so should not be included but then include the highly specific beast totem superstitious invulnerable raging come and get me barbarian.. please explain?
And a martial artist monk with mantis style and ability focus can pretty much stun anything.
A strength of fighters is feats - use them to get supernatural powers ! I am strongly of the opinion to get real joy from a fighter only fighter feats should be used for fighter feats and fighting. All general feats should be used for racial heritage and wings or spell casting foxtails, elritch heritage, wild psionics,true name powers or any such thing supplements bring.
Its been mentioned tactician fighters are boss. Combine their 11th level ability with the feats bodyguard, arcane strike and combat reflexes and the items: gloves of arcane striking, benevolent armour, and a ring of tactical precision oh and the helpful trait - boost EVERY-ONES AC !
A few quick things. Superstitious isn't an archetype. Nor is Raging. Nor is Come and Get Me. Even Beast Totem is a rage power (though one that will close off other options). Those are things Barbarians can just *do*. Zen Archer Monk is an archetype that turns the class built around getting up close and punching people with your fists, into the class that hides in the back and shoots a bow. See the difference? Especially considering the number crunch doesn't take invulnerable rager into account.
Second while a Fighter may get *more* feats then a Barbarian, thanks to the Extra Rage Power, a Barbarian gets more *valuable* feats, since Rage Powers put feats to shame. And in this case quantity won't overcome quality since Combat feat chains are long drug out affairs in PF seemingly created to punish the Fighter.
It would help your argument if you stopped using archetypes, since neither of the number crunched builds do. And do you really want to have to compare against an Invulnerable Rager? I think that will end badly, no matter which Fighter archetype you pick.
EvilPaladin |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
People say zen archer is a specific build and archetype so should not be included but then include the highly specific beast totem superstitious invulnerable raging come and get me barbarian.. please explain?
And a martial artist monk with mantis style and ability focus can pretty much stun anything.
A strength of fighters is feats - use them to get supernatural powers ! I am strongly of the opinion to get real joy from a fighter only fighter feats should be used for fighter feats and fighting. All general feats should be used for racial heritage and wings or spell casting foxtails, elritch heritage, wild psionics,true name powers or any such thing supplements bring.
Its been mentioned tactician fighters are boss. Combine their 11th level ability with the feats bodyguard, arcane strike and combat reflexes and the items: gloves of arcane striking, benevolent armour, and a ring of tactical precision oh and the helpful trait - boost EVERY-ONES AC !
Well, 1:The Invulnerable CaGM Beast Totem Superstitious Barbarian both fits with the theme of the barbarian, and is actually fairly standard, and are pretty typical of what you expect a barbarians playstyle to be [charge into people at full speed and rip them limb from limb]. I mean, I get that not all of them do, but a fair amount of Barbarians at least take the last 3, because they are obvious, incredible options. The Zen Archer does not fit with the theme of the monk, and completely changes your playstyle from "Run Up and Punch Someone" to "Rain Death from a Hundred Feet Away".
2:Well, using general feats for cool stuff is all well and good, but it kinda diminishes the advantage you get in-combat[the tiny few points you get before level Twenty]. Because now you need to pursue the Weapon Focus/Spec train, you need Power Attack, you need stuff like Iron Will, and you only get about 1/2 the amount of feats you'd normally get.
3:I see a fair amount of race-specific options like Racial Heritage, Spellcasting Fox Tails, Wings, etc, and really, race should not be what keeps a class viable. Because if it is, then commoners are OP. Also, you mention Arcane Strike[which generally means multiclassing or being race-specific, see commoners], and some 3pp things. Which of course, can fix the fighter, but if it is needed to fix the fighter, then it proves that fighters are in fact broken and do have a problem, because you don't fix the car in pristine condition, you fix the one you crashed.
Marcus Robert Hosler |
3:I see a fair amount of race-specific options like Racial Heritage, Spellcasting Fox Tails, Wings, etc, and really, race should not be what keeps a class viable. Because if it is, then commoners are OP. Also, you mention Arcane Strike[which generally means multiclassing or being race-specific, see commoners], and some 3pp things. Which of course, can fix the fighter, but if it is needed to fix the fighter, then it proves that fighters are in fact broken and do have a problem, because you don't fix the car in pristine condition, you fix the one you crashed.
For anyone who likes 3 but wants that to be supported by class features I recommend the Aegis.
*UMD bonuses, flight, crafting support, ect.
Umbranus |
Anyone else never see or use an ion stone at any point in their time playing this game?
I know they are a thing, and I include them in all judgments, but how many of us actually do have stones floating around us at all times?
There is one that regenerates hp at a rate of one per hour or so which I have used. The cracked Pearly White Spindle.
666bender |
i like barbarians, but Superstitious i like less than most here.
yes, it give super saves but in a group, it mean no one will "waste" a buff or heal at you - as you will resist easy.
the 2 builds i like for barbarians are: all Invulnerable.
1) Invulnerable barbariann with 1 dip in fighter > for easy staleart feat access. it will have super DR and super HP.
2) take 1-2 oracle (battle or metal) for fatigue immune , and 1 lvl in fighter for stalwart access. learn and focus on strength surge, knockdown etc, read scrolls. nice rounder character.
DominusMegadeus |
i like barbarians, but Superstitious i like less than most here.
yes, it give super saves but in a group, it mean no one will "waste" a buff or heal at you - as you will resist easy.the 2 builds i like for barbarians are: all Invulnerable.
1) Invulnerable barbariann with 1 dip in fighter > for easy staleart feat access. it will have super DR and super HP.
2) take 1-2 oracle (battle or metal) for fatigue immune , and 1 lvl in fighter for stalwart access. learn and focus on strength surge, knockdown etc, read scrolls. nice rounder character.
The idea is usually that casters will buff you before you rage, and that you don't particularly need buffs for every fight. Healing, you can rage cycle.
666bender |
666bender wrote:The idea is usually that casters will buff you before you rage, and that you don't particularly need buffs for every fight. Healing, you can rage cycle.i like barbarians, but Superstitious i like less than most here.
yes, it give super saves but in a group, it mean no one will "waste" a buff or heal at you - as you will resist easy.the 2 builds i like for barbarians are: all Invulnerable.
1) Invulnerable barbariann with 1 dip in fighter > for easy staleart feat access. it will have super DR and super HP.
2) take 1-2 oracle (battle or metal) for fatigue immune , and 1 lvl in fighter for stalwart access. learn and focus on strength surge, knockdown etc, read scrolls. nice rounder character.
normally the fights begin without preparations. so, round 1-2 buffers buff.... while melee fight...
also, rage cycle is pain to gain. the least cost that i know of (without items that no DM will give...) is 1 lvl dip to oracle , so its barbarian 9 minimum.666bender |
2 more tricks:
1. dwarven. the +4 vs spells that add to barbarian ability will truly make you immune. and the con boost is not bad.
2. "flesh wound"
if you can rage cycle, for example barbarian lvl 12 (2 oracle, 10 babr)
will have super DR vs non leathal and can use it every round. its... insane!
Flesh Wound (Ex): Once per rage, the barbarian can try to avoid serious harm from an attack. The barbarian must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to the damage that would be dealt by the attack. The barbarian's armor check penalty applies on this saving throw. If the save succeeds, the barbarian takes half damage from the attack and the damage is nonlethal. The barbarian must elect to use this ability after the attack roll is made, but before the damage is rolled. A barbarian must be at least 10th level to select this rage power.
Umbranus |
DominusMegadeus wrote:666bender wrote:The idea is usually that casters will buff you before you rage, and that you don't particularly need buffs for every fight. Healing, you can rage cycle.i like barbarians, but Superstitious i like less than most here.
yes, it give super saves but in a group, it mean no one will "waste" a buff or heal at you - as you will resist easy.the 2 builds i like for barbarians are: all Invulnerable.
1) Invulnerable barbariann with 1 dip in fighter > for easy staleart feat access. it will have super DR and super HP.
2) take 1-2 oracle (battle or metal) for fatigue immune , and 1 lvl in fighter for stalwart access. learn and focus on strength surge, knockdown etc, read scrolls. nice rounder character.normally the fights begin without preparations. so, round 1-2 buffers buff.... while melee fight...
also, rage cycle is pain to gain. the least cost that i know of (without items that no DM will give...) is 1 lvl dip to oracle , so its barbarian 9 minimum.
It depends very much on the group's play style. If the group buffs in combat an option is to delay behind the buffer. That way you can at least get one buff without loosing a round of rage.
For healing: Shield others pre combat and the healer heals himself. Or channel energy, which is no spell.666bender |
btw - which do you like the most?
Mounted Fury Vs Invulnerable Rager ?
the Invulnerable Rager will be like a super tank - super DR and ways to survive. the ability to get, at lvl 11, to DR (5+10=15) with stalwart is... amazing for a full attacking raging killing machine.
the Mounted Fury (+ boon companion...) will have... a mount.
take aasimar race (angel-kin) and you got a celestial friend next to you.
especially if DM allow wolf after lvl 7.
a mount is amazing, and totalling the damage you are doing to insane levels.