Fighter vs Barbarian, by the numbers.


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Aelryinth wrote:

Is that a proper English jibe? :) It ain't 'dwarves'.

==Aelryinth

Just simple minded amusement on my part. Talking about Pathfinder, someone says dwarfs, laugh like an idiot. You know how it is.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:
666bender wrote:

why on earth you compare damage only?

fighter has many things going his way:
1) he can archer much better
2) lore warden are master at maneuvers without the end level o tireless rage
3)a ighter can learn 3-4 maneuvers, my warden was going vital strike + felling smash + trip that provoke 2 AOO (1 from all) + grapple that lead to free greater grapple.
no barbarrian can ever hit and trip and grapple and pin and makeoe provoke from all in 1 round.

also, remember, maneuvers with greater maneuvers make opponent provoke AOO - so add the daamge all are doing...

Barbarians will still outdamage a lore warden. Once pounce and then another full round attack kills most anything in its CR range. Trip is limited by size. The damage from a barbarian does not care how big you are.

Not only does the Lore Warden have all the cumulative bonuses of a regular fighter, he gains additional competence bonuses to damage and to-hit.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Is that a proper English jibe? :) It ain't 'dwarves'.

==Aelryinth

Just simple minded amusement on my part. Talking about Pathfinder, someone says dwarfs, laugh like an idiot. You know how it is.

I don't know if Tolkien invented the spelling with a "v", but i read about his publisher "corrected" dwarves and elves to dwarfs and elfs in early printings of LoTR.

Scarab Sages

MrBateman wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:


nobody complains about the fighter not being able to do damage. Truly. Comparing damage is pointless...nobody is comparing damage.

It's EVERYTHING ELSE.

===Aelryinth

This is exactly the issue, the Fighter is worse as a front-line class not because they can't do damage, but because their defenses and other non-damage features are subpar at best, and hilariously bad at worst.

AC is only 1 or two points below what the barbarian can manage. Nobody matches the saves of a superstitious barbarian.

For non-damage features, that is where those bonus feats come into play. The fighter has the feats to maximize damage and do other fun things. Combat Patrol, for example, adds 20' to the fighter's threatened area and allows movement on an opponents turn, making the fighter more likely to start his turn adjacent to an opponent.

Feats like Stand Still and Pin Down mean opponents cannot just ignore or run away from a high AC fighter.

Critical Mastery allows the fighter to force opponents into multiple high DC saves every time he crits. Any failed save essentially ends the fight.

Heavens forbid the fighter use a couple of bonus feats for Improved iron will. A fighter can, with a little effort, have higher will saves than your average wizard. Yes, not as high as the superstitious barbarian, but what does the barbarian do on surprise rounds?


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modus0 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
I can honestly say that if you use more then 35 rounds of rounds. Either you have done something wrong, or your GM has.

That's what, 3.5 minutes of rage?

In my opinion, if you don't need your full 35 rounds of rage (7 5-round combats) in a day, either you or the GM are doing something wrong.

Let's try to keep from further insulting differing play-styles.

But for my question: Was it factored in for that every round the Barbarian isn't raging, he's not getting the benefit of +8 Str and Con, +4 to Will, but also doesn't suffer the -2 AC penalty?

The default given in core is four encounters per day at CR=party's level. 7 encounters that are 5-rounds each is way, way outside the norm.


Artanthos wrote:
Heavens forbid the fighter use a couple of bonus feats for Improved iron will. A fighter can, with a little effort, have higher will saves than your average wizard. Yes, not as high as the superstitious barbarian, but what does the barbarian do on surprise rounds?

Can he? Because a Half-Elf Fighter with Dual Minded, Iron Will and Auspicious Tattoo still only has a +11 will save.

I suppose he can buy headbands of Wis, but considering Wizards can craft magic gear and don't need to spend nay gold with armor and weapons, they can probably afford a headband of Int/Wis.


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Entering a rage is a free action, and you can only take free actions when you take another action.

This means the barbarian's natural armor bonus AND bonus to saves from superstition and rage, is inactive when a creature attacks / forces a save on the barbarian during surprise round / round 1 before barbarian acts.

On the other hand, the fighter's relative AC from wearing full plate doesn't get mitigated during surprise round. His Armor Training might be worthless when he's flat footed. His bravery will always be active.

I don't actually think Fighter > Barbarian, but I just wanted to raise some points to those claiming that Barbarians can rage all day every round.


Bob the Fighter:

Feats:
Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Falcata), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Falcata), Double Slice, Toughness?, Weapon Specialization (Falcata), Power Attack, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Hammer the Gap, Greater Weapon Focus (Falcata), Improved Critical (Falcata), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Specialization (Falcata), Penetrating Strike, Two-Weapon Rend, Rending Fury, Greater Penetrating Strike?, Stunning Assault, Improved Rending Fury, Greater Rending Fury, Staggering Critical

Offense Breakdown
BAB: +20
Strength: 36 (+13)
Weapon Focus: +1
Greater Weapon Focus: +1
Weapon Training: +4
TWF: -4
Dueling Gloves: +2
+5 Weapons

Strength: 36 (+13)
Weapon Training +4
Weapon Specialization: +2
Greater Weapon Specialization: +2
Dueling Gloves: +2
+5 Weapons

(2) +5 Falcata of Speed
Dueling Gloves
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Headband of Aerial Agility +6 (Wis)

Full Attack (Main) – (off-hand)
+42/+42/+37/+32/+27 - +42/+42/+37/+32
1d8 + 28/ 17 – 20x4

If any two strikes hit, Bob rends the foe for an additional 1d10+34 (two-weapon rend; gives him the rend special quality), plus 1d6 (improved rending fury) plus 1d6 bleed (greater rending fury)

Every time Bob hits until he misses in the round he deals +1 damage per consecutive hit (hammer the gap)

If he reduces hit to hit by 5, he has a chance to stun the opponent with every hit (F DC 30; Stunning Assault); if the bonuses to the fighters weapon modify the DC, then it would be 42ish.

Bob also ignores 10 points of DR ??/anything but except DR ??/ —, but he does ignore 5 points of that DR

This assumes that Bob the Fighter and Barber the Barbarian are Azlant Humans with a flat +2 to all stats which would all be base 18.

But Bob the fighter I think just needs a Str of 13 and a Dex of 19 to pull off. FCB goes towards Health, helps with Toughness to shore up that resource.

Though if the rending fury tree cannot be used, I'd switch things around to help shore up the Will save with Iron Will and Improved Iron Will, maybe toss in Great Fortitude as well.

Though as far as damage goes, I think Bob here may be competitive with the Barbarian, but this is a very focused build.


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I simply cannot understand the love lavished on barbarians in late 3.5 (whirling frenzy lion totem) and PF. Who could possibly look at the fighter and barbarian and think that the class that has more skills, better defenses against magic and sneak attacks, and special defenses like DR should be boosted further? Who could think that it should be even roughly competitive in a straight-up fight against the one that has none of these, let alone better?

Maybe they weren't thinking of game balance at all. Maybe they were thinking of narrative tropes. What are these well-loved works of fiction where a hero's lifetime dedication to training and skill is utterly useless next to his comrade's berserk rage and primal instinct? It is FAR more satisfying for me to have skill win out in that battle. Maybe I'm in the minority here? I don't see what is so enjoyable about disrespecting skill and training.

Is it Conan love? There are good reasons why he was statted up as a multiclass Brb/Thf/Ftr; his background included all of those aspects. Skill and training were central to the character in every version I have seen.

Is it a 3.5 legacy problem that PF was stuck with? No. With Robilar's Gambit and the Mage Slayer line unavailable as feats, they gave them as rage powers (yes, I know the rage powers are not *exactly* the Mage Slayer line). They added Furious and Courageous enchantments after, apparently, deciding that the barbarian was too weak and needed a boost. I don't know how they came to that conclusion.

Don't compare them to casters. Casters have needed a nerf bat for a long time. It doesn't change the fact that the relative combat prowess of the barbarian and fighter is way off what it should be.

So... WHY did the barbarian get all this love relative to the fighter?


@Aldizog No idea.
Did the math in my head (and phone calculator) and at level 20 max str for both human fighter and human barbar was about a 2 point difference (36 str ftr and 42 barbar, these numbers are from +5 from leveling, +6 belt, and +5 book and for barbar +8 rage, range mods was someing like +45 vrs +47 or some rediculous numbers in that range) both using 2 hand power attack. Big help for fighter was the fighters +4 to hit and damage from weapon group and +4 damage from feats. Both had +5 falcions for ease of comparison. Granted, I don't know a lot of barbar rage powers off hand, which might shift damage some. In straight fight, with crits, fighter will win. But as many said, all the extra stuff to barbars is what makes them better in long run, especially at levels 11-19. One way to help the fighter is some of the human feats that open up single weapon feats to all weapons of same weapon group (not like they don't have feats to spare).

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@Aldizog

It's because of thematics. Barbarians get to do supernatural things while raging, and emulate animals.

Animals are better at fighting than humans. They have natural attacks to get extra hits, natural armor which doesn't have any penalties compared to traditional armor (and stacks with it), and get to do combat maneuvers for free when they hit with an attack, rather replacing their attack. Also (and this is the big one), pounce.

Fighters are utterly mundane, and that's what holds them back.


Zhangar wrote:

Interesting.

So, if I'm understanding this right, a properly built high level barbarian does comparable damage to a smiting paladin or challenging cavalier (which are x/day abilities), and the barbarian does that damage at virtually all times?

At 20th, MAYBE?

Smite adds a flat +level (sometimes +double level) to damage, which already makes up the difference (+20-+40 to damage). So it beats the Barbarian by anywhere from 1 to 11 damage vs Evil creatures.

Then toss in Charisma to-hit (and I like to think the Paladin will be maxing Cha as much as possible, at least a 24 ASAP, more if he goes for inherent bonuses since this IS 20th level, so 29), and he's getting an extra +9 to-hit, AND AC.

Plus, he CAN safely use a shield since his damage bonuses are so large, potentially bumping his AC to ludicrous heights.

So he'll have a higher ACP, and a lower move speed, but damage-wise he's doing fine, with a higher to-hit and either a slightly higher or WAAAAY higher damage bonus than the Barbarian while Smiting. And he doesn't have the defensive shortcomings the Fighter has in the Saves department, being outright immune to two things and with great saves to boot.

DualJay wrote:
What if the fighter is using archery?

I don't really feel like running the math on it, but my gut says Fighter wins that one on damage hands down. Archery benefits a lot more from bonuses than any other fighting style in the game. After all, an extra +1 to damage is really more like +6 (+7 with Haste).

Artanthos wrote:

A rough comparision of numbers, using basic builds: Starting strength 17, +5 for level. I won't bother with most stat gear or buffs, both classes gain the same benefits.

Fighter
20 BAB
22 Str (+6/+9)
+5 keen, thundering, speed nodachi (1d10/15-20/x3)
Weapon Training IV (+4/+4)
Greater Weapon Specialization (-/+4)
Greater Weapon Focus (+2/-)
Auto confirm crits
+1 Critical Modifier
Gloves of Dueling (+2/+2)

20 APL AC = 36
Nodachi +39/+34/+29/+24 (1d10+24/15-20/x3) +2d8 sonic on crit

.95(29.5)+.3(2)(29.5+4.5) = 48.425 * 3 = 96.85
.7(29.5)+.3(2)(29.5+4.5) = 41.05
.45(29.5)+.3(2)(29.5+4.5) = 33.675

DPR = 220

Barbarian
20 BAB
33 Str (raging)(+11/+16) - courageous counted
+7 furious, courageous, speed nodachi (1d10/18-20/x2) - furious counted
Weapon Focus (+1/-)
+7 Witch Hunter

20 APL AC = 36
Nodachi +36/+31/+26/+31 (1d10+26/18-20/x2)

.95(35.5)+.15(.95)(31.5) = 38.78375*2 = 77.5675
.8(35.5)+.15(.8)(31.5) = 32.66
.55(35.5)+.15(.55)(31.5) = 22.45375
.3(35.5)+.15(.3)(31.5) = 12.2475

DPR = 144.92875

The Barbarian does, in fact, have a larger static bonus to damage. Where he looses is on the criticals. Auto confirm and an increased multiplier are huge bonuses in the fighters favor. The DPR contribution from criticals remains flat across all the fighters iteratives, unlike the barbarian's diminishing returns.

The barbarian has better saves. With supestitious he most likely has better saves than the paladin and monk.

The bararian will end with a +1 to AC, both have DR 5/-

Interesting. I was planning on running DPR myself later but honestly I hate that formula and it takes me forever to get all the numbers I need.

Note: It's +9 Witch Hunter, +6 base, Courageous increases it by 3. Potentially +10, but I personally prefer to apply it to Beast Totem for a smidgen of extra AC, or Strength Surge occasionally.

How do the damage numbers stand at 19th level? It would be really interesting to see exactly HOW big of a difference Weapon Mastery makes.

Has anyone figured a fair way to run the numbers to factor in Pounce, as well? Would doing average DPR over 4 rounds, factoring out a full attack for (non-archer) FIghters in the first round work?

I was going to reply a few more but I've got to run. I'll get to them when I get back.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Armor Training included. Additional Feats hard to account for. Should've put that under Misc.
It seems that you are quite right. I have always assumed that Armor Training increased the armor bonus as well. Maybe it should!

That would be pretty great. It's what I thought it was when I first started playing too but was quickly disappointed after I looked it over.

666bender wrote:
why on earth you compare damage only?

Technically I'm not, I'm just comparing the things I can get clear numerical values for. Saves, AC, and damage.

666bender wrote:
fighter has many things going his way:

Not sure he has MANY, but he does have some.

666bender wrote:
1) he can archer much better

Yes. An Urban Barbarian can be pretty solid too, but I think Fighters are the undisputed masters of archery, barring a a Smiting Paladin (and that one's not a knock on the Fighter, a Smiting Archer is ridonkulous).

666bender wrote:
2) lore warden are master at maneuvers without the end level o tireless rage

Granted, but I will point out that the defense gap becomes much larger in that case, barring maybe a Finesse Warden.

666bender wrote:
3)a Fighter can learn 3-4 maneuvers, my warden was going vital strike + felling smash + trip that provoke 2 AOO (1 from all) + grapple that lead to free greater grapple.

Yes, though I don't value most maneuvers as highly, especially Trip. Trip is just too hard to pull off at high levels. Either it flies, it's outright immune, or it has a gazillion legs.

666bender wrote:

no barbarrian can ever hit and trip and grapple and pin and makeoe provoke from all in 1 round.

also, remember, maneuvers with greater maneuvers make opponent provoke AOO - so add the daamge all are doing...

Which MIGHT add up to the power of one of your full attacks on a good sequence. Also note that this isn't exactly true, Greater Grapple does nothing with AoOs.

666bender wrote:

i diagree.... agood grapple (greater, rapid etc) is viable at any level. true, not vs any foe.... but very useful.

and barbarian got str surge, but without the improve feats he will wat many AOO....
(and barbarian dont have feat to spare.)

Hm? The average Barbarian needs exactly 1 Feat: Power Attack.

Everything else he may do with as he pleases.

Shit my Barbarian spent a Feat on Improved Sunder and one on Trap Wrecker just so he could be the party's trap guy and I don't think anyone would say it's hurt him in the combat department.

Artanthos wrote:


AC is only 1 or two points below what the barbarian can manage. Nobody matches the saves of a superstitious barbarian.

I think a Paladin does, or comes close. And always on too, without the Superstition drawback. Paladins are neat.

Artanthos wrote:
Yes, not as high as the superstitious barbarian, but what does the barbarian do on surprise rounds?

Partial Charge and full attack.

He's kind of an a~!*+@~ that way.

voideternal wrote:

Entering a rage is a free action, and you can only take free actions when you take another action.

This means the barbarian's natural armor bonus AND bonus to saves from superstition and rage, is inactive when a creature attacks / forces a save on the barbarian during surprise round / round 1 before barbarian acts.

On the other hand, the fighter's relative AC from wearing full plate doesn't get mitigated during surprise round. His Armor Training might be worthless when he's flat footed. His bravery will always be active.

I don't actually think Fighter > Barbarian, but I just wanted to raise some points to those claiming that Barbarians can rage all day every round.

This is what that headband of Havoc is for. Lets him activate Rage as an Immediate action upon being targeted by a hostile spell or effect.

Uncanny Dodge lets him take that Immediate. One of the major advantages a standard Barbarian has over the Invulnerable Rager, actually.


Artanthos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
666bender wrote:

why on earth you compare damage only?

fighter has many things going his way:
1) he can archer much better
2) lore warden are master at maneuvers without the end level o tireless rage
3)a ighter can learn 3-4 maneuvers, my warden was going vital strike + felling smash + trip that provoke 2 AOO (1 from all) + grapple that lead to free greater grapple.
no barbarrian can ever hit and trip and grapple and pin and makeoe provoke from all in 1 round.

also, remember, maneuvers with greater maneuvers make opponent provoke AOO - so add the daamge all are doing...

Barbarians will still outdamage a lore warden. Once pounce and then another full round attack kills most anything in its CR range. Trip is limited by size. The damage from a barbarian does not care how big you are.
Not only does the Lore Warden have all the cumulative bonuses of a regular fighter, he gains additional competence bonuses to damage and to-hit.

Oh he gives up defense, not offense. My memory betrayed me. That does not exactly make him suited to be up front. That is the problem a rogue has when it does a lot of damage. Of course the fighter could by the feat higher armor proficiency back with feats.

I think this fighter is what I would use instead of the core fighter, but I still think the barbarian is a better all around class.


Rynjin wrote:
Yes. An Urban Barbarian can be pretty solid too, but I think Fighters are the undisputed masters of archery, barring a a Smiting Paladin (and that one's not a knock on the Fighter, a Smiting Archer is ridonkulous).

At 20 level the master is the zen archer due that ability that let them use stunning fist on arrows.


voideternal wrote:

Entering a rage is a free action, and you can only take free actions when you take another action.

Not true. You can take a free action as its own action.


Aldizog wrote:
I simply cannot understand the love lavished on barbarians in late 3.5 (whirling frenzy lion totem) and PF. Who could possibly look at the fighter and barbarian and think that the class that has more skills, better defenses against magic and sneak attacks, and special defenses like DR should be boosted further?

The core barbarian is not all that great. Now in 3.5 with all of the splat books it was a beast.

Other than superstition the barbarian was not really impressive. It may have outstripped a fighter, but that is not saying much.


Nicos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes. An Urban Barbarian can be pretty solid too, but I think Fighters are the undisputed masters of archery, barring a a Smiting Paladin (and that one's not a knock on the Fighter, a Smiting Archer is ridonkulous).
At 20 level the master is the zen archer due that ability that let them use stunning fist on arrows.

You can only use stunning fist once per round and most monsters are passing that save.


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Nicos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes. An Urban Barbarian can be pretty solid too, but I think Fighters are the undisputed masters of archery, barring a a Smiting Paladin (and that one's not a knock on the Fighter, a Smiting Archer is ridonkulous).
At 20 level the master is the zen archer due that ability that let them use stunning fist on arrows.

Stunning Fist basically only exists to take up space on my character sheet I could be using for something else.


wraithstrike wrote:
Not true. You can take a free action as its own action.

Ah, re-reading Combat, it seems you're right. And reading Headband of Havoc, it seems the Barbarian can indeed keep her bonuses to saves during the surprise round. The ability is 1/day, so I guess a high-level Barbarian could purchase multiple Headbands of Havoc to refresh the ability as needed.


Rynjin wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes. An Urban Barbarian can be pretty solid too, but I think Fighters are the undisputed masters of archery, barring a a Smiting Paladin (and that one's not a knock on the Fighter, a Smiting Archer is ridonkulous).
At 20 level the master is the zen archer due that ability that let them use stunning fist on arrows.
Stunning Fist basically only exists to take up space on my character sheet I could be using for something else.

have you seen the "one" build?


Out of curiosity, how much do those numbers change if you give the barbarian improved critical and take Rynjin's corrections into account?

Edit: I believe the barbarian strength should be 34 (17+5+8+4), not 33.


Rynjin wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes. An Urban Barbarian can be pretty solid too, but I think Fighters are the undisputed masters of archery, barring a a Smiting Paladin (and that one's not a knock on the Fighter, a Smiting Archer is ridonkulous).
At 20 level the master is the zen archer due that ability that let them use stunning fist on arrows.
Stunning Fist basically only exists to take up space on my character sheet I could be using for something else.

I've agreed on everything so far, but the Stunning Fist DC on the Zen Archer is no joke. Zen Archers are almost as SAD as full casters and can pump that DC hard. Check out "The One" Zen Archer build.


If there's only one build of a very specific archetype that really barely resembles a Monk to begin with that can make it worthwhile...I'll stand by my statement.


I usually support any build that doesn't entirely break the game, but...

Zen Archers really are the furthest from fulfilling the monk dream of any other archetype. It's so sad that 'punching stuff good' is so hard to achieve.


Rynjin wrote:
If there's only one build of a very specific archetype that really barely resembles a Monk to begin with that can make it worthwhile...I'll stand by my statement.

IMO

Monk = Fighter > Druid animal companion > Rogue

That's for both in and out of combat taken together from a personal experience.


Nicos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes. An Urban Barbarian can be pretty solid too, but I think Fighters are the undisputed masters of archery, barring a a Smiting Paladin (and that one's not a knock on the Fighter, a Smiting Archer is ridonkulous).
At 20 level the master is the zen archer due that ability that let them use stunning fist on arrows.
Stunning Fist basically only exists to take up space on my character sheet I could be using for something else.
have you seen the "one" build?

No. Post the link, but one build is still not a "class". For the class to not have a problem the solution should work for more than a cookie cutter build.

Now I will scroll down to see if the link is here. :)

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One.

Archery is in general pretty cookie cutter, but then again when most people want to play a monk, they don't mean an archer.


Yeah Stunning fist in general is garbage all the way and is only viable with Zen Archer.

With Zen Archer you're full attacking every turn and the first Arrow of your full attack is a stunning fist with a DC so high that almost everything fails unless a nat 20, so the rest of your full attack hits a much lower AC.

No that's not the normal usage and this is a corner case that is the opposite of what most consider a "monk." Zen Archer does get the crown of "Best Archer" though for having the highest AC, Saves, and reliable way to stun.

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Well, Zen Archers can only stun after lvl 17 so I wouldn't say it's a reliable tactic.

I don't really get the Stunning Fist hate for standard monks, the DC is fine (based on what most monks pick for their 2nd best stat). The problem with Stunning Fist is all the things that are immune to it, and the Zen Archer is no better off there. Stun is just so good though, even if it's only a 25% of success (and you could probably do better) it's far from a waste of space.

But even without it the Zen Archer is the best archer.


Rynjin wrote:
If there's only one build of a very specific archetype that really barely resembles a Monk to begin with that can make it worthwhile...I'll stand by my statement.

It is not a very specific build. Basically it is only tree things

1) high Wis, as a zen archer that is like an obvious choice, stunning fist or not.
2) Mantis style, wich is really easy to have
3) ability focus, a feat that can be taken at level 17th.


It's pretty sad how the Fighter is only definitively better at damage at 20th level and spends the rest of it's career in the shadow of the Barbarian's superior class features.


A barbarian must use rounds of rage to out perform the fighter. Perhaps it is a small thing, but the barbarian is limited in this way.


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Petty Alchemy wrote:

Well, Zen Archers can only stun after lvl 17 so I wouldn't say it's a reliable tactic.

I don't really get the Stunning Fist hate for standard monks, the DC is fine (based on what most monks pick for their 2nd best stat). The problem with Stunning Fist is all the things that are immune to it, and the Zen Archer is no better off there. Stun is just so good though, even if it's only a 25% of success (and you could probably do better) it's far from a waste of space.

But even without it the Zen Archer is the best archer.

My most played class is Monk.

I've had Stunning Fist work TWICE.

The DC is just waaaay too low. 1/2 level +Wis sounds decent until you realize Wis is a secondary stat and it targets most creature's best save. At level 10 you've got a DC 19 or 20, most likely as a standard Monk.

Pull some random CR 10 monsters from the bestiary.

Movanic Deva, Fort +12, passes on an 8.

Piscodaemon, Fort +14, passes on a 6.

Young Adult Black Dragon, Fort +12, passes on an 8.

Giant Octopus, Fort +14, passes on a 6.

You don't even have a solid 50/50 shot unless you're pumping Wis, versus creatures that are supposed to be EASY ENCOUNTERS at level 10.

Go up to boss encounters (CR +2 at least), you know the creatures you actually want Stun because it matters.

Omox Demon, Fort +15, passes on a 5.

Shining Child, Fort +14, passes on a 6.

Mature Adult Black Dragon, Fort +15, passes on a 5.

Kyton, Interlocutor, Fort +14, passes on a 6.

Same deal, slightly worse.

Stunning Fist is terrible.

Nicos wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
If there's only one build of a very specific archetype that really barely resembles a Monk to begin with that can make it worthwhile...I'll stand by my statement.

It is not a very specific build. Basically it is only tree things

1) high Wis, as a zen archer that is like an obvious choice, stunning fist or not.
2) Mantis style, which is really easy to have
3) ability focus, a feat that can be taken at level 17th.

I call 2 feats and pumping an ability score that is secondary for everyone but a Zen Archer to be specifically building toward it.

And even with Ability Focus and Mantis Style, you're pumping your non Wis based fighter's DC by 4...meaning at best you're bumping it up to where the enemy saves on an 12 instead of an 8, for the ones with weaker Fort saves.

Two Feats, to help an ability with only a somewhat better than 50/50 chance of working.

Well, 50/50 chance of working ASSUMING YOU HIT all of your attempts, anyway.


Since I was specifically talking about zen archers I do not see the problem.

And it isnot specially building toward it. SPend all the career taking archery feats as normal, then at level 17 take mantis style and at level 19 ability focus, because, well, what else would the zen archer take at those levels anyways?. Remberber, wisdom is aprimary stat for zen archers, you want it stunning fist or not.

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On the other hand, stun is an extremely powerful condition. Everyone gets a bonus to hit them (and an extra bonus on combat maneuvers IIRC?), they drop whatever they're holding (useless against some monsters, useful against others), and they don't get to take any actions. That's among the best control on the market.

And it doesn't cost you any actions, nor does it reduce your damage output for the attempt. I'd like it more if you could spend it after you hit rather than when making the attack roll, but I'm not going to turn my nose up from it.


Althougt for raw DPR, at that level I thing a fighter dervish of dawn could do it well.


Maybe when they put all those pictures of the Fighter getting shit on in the books, it wasn't meant to be a joke, but rather, an accurate representation of the game balance?


Insain Dragoon wrote:

Yeah Stunning fist in general is garbage all the way and is only viable with Zen Archer.

With Zen Archer you're full attacking every turn and the first Arrow of your full attack is a stunning fist with a DC so high that almost everything fails unless a nat 20, so the rest of your full attack hits a much lower AC.

No that's not the normal usage and this is a corner case that is the opposite of what most consider a "monk." Zen Archer does get the crown of "Best Archer" though for having the highest AC, Saves, and reliable way to stun.

I have a monk in my game. I don't think my monster have failed one stunning fist check. I know ability focus is a +2, but that means I go from needing a 5 or less to a 7 or less. I will guess and say that Mantis Style gives another +2. So now that 7 goes up to a 9.

I guess since the stunning fist is going to have max out wisdom I should reevaluate but even before I have seen monks with maxed out wisdom not stun a lot.

10+10(level 20)+12(ability mod)+4(feats)=36
Average high save of CR 20 monsters is 22, but that it seems not many follow the rule.

Pit Fiend +24 I won't use wish to up this.. :)
Balor +25
Dragon ancient gold dragon +23

Now let's remove those 2 feats and you are not stunning a lot. Even with them I would not expect much.

Nice ability though, but is not worth two feats IMHO, seeing as how it is barely getting over against APL=CR opponents. Of course seeing it in play might change my mind.


Also going to point out that a Zen Archer can change their damage to equal their "unarmed" damage (which at level 20 cna step up weapin damage a lot), can hit from stupid far with true strike, can up his chances to hit with his las iterive by using perfect strike, can end up shooting 1 more arrow than most other archers (Ki-point usage), and/or is better in an actual environment since he can do stuff liek shoot around corners...

Zen archers are mean...

Oh you also cannot forget about the smiting archer...

and the Inquisitor archer is actually fairly mean as well...


MrBateman wrote:
Maybe when they put all those pictures of the Fighter getting s$&& on in the books, it wasn't meant to be a joke, but rather, an accurate representation of the game balance?

Although now that I think about it, based on the art from the books, the Rogue class should be totally badass. We all know the reality regarding that...


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wraithstrike wrote:
666bender wrote:

why on earth you compare damage only?

fighter has many things going his way:
1) he can archer much better
2) lore warden are master at maneuvers without the end level o tireless rage
3)a ighter can learn 3-4 maneuvers, my warden was going vital strike + felling smash + trip that provoke 2 AOO (1 from all) + grapple that lead to free greater grapple.
no barbarrian can ever hit and trip and grapple and pin and makeoe provoke from all in 1 round.

also, remember, maneuvers with greater maneuvers make opponent provoke AOO - so add the daamge all are doing...

Barbarians will still outdamage a lore warden. Once pounce and then another full round attack kills most anything in its CR range. Trip is limited by size. The damage from a barbarian does not care how big you are.

Beyond that, combat maneuvers still require 13 Int for the feats. Yes, even if you get Combat Expertise for free, the Improved Maneuver feats still each require 13 Int. That's a major problem for a class that needs Strength to justify his existence, Dex and Con to not die, and all the Wisdom he can get to shore up that weak Will save.

The worst part of Trip is that it just plain doesn't work if the target can fly, and at mid levels you run into a lot of flying opponents. Eventually flight just becomes standard on everything.

Plus you can't use it if the target is more than one size category larger than you (very common at higher levels, even assuming you get Enlarge Person for every fight). Plus you can't use it if the target has no legs, and it gets harder with every leg above two.

And then there's the age-old problem that big, important enemies likely can't be tripped (or otherwise shut down with one move), and mooks that you could trip you could simply kill.

It's just too big an investment for something that's so situational. Yes, even for a Fighter with all his bonus feats.


So with this we can say that assuming equal levels of min-max

Barbarians have
More dmg than a fighter
Better saves
More hp
Higher ac
More skill points
Better skills
The ability to full attack on a charge

The only reason to play a fighter is if you need more bonus feats for a very specific that is not focused on damage, but on combat maneuvers that are not useable for almost any fight against non-medium humanoids. Even then the Slayer, who has only one less feat for levels 1-12 is a better choice.

Want to play a noble and skilled weapon master in full plate? That Armored Hulk Barb archetype is a better fit, just say you're rage is the tunnel vision from the fight or flight response in combat. Not only will you be more effective in combat, but you will have more skill points to back up your roleplay.


Insain Dragoon wrote:


Want to play a noble and skilled weapon master in full plate? That Armored Hulk Barb archetype is a better fit, just say you're rage is the tunnel vision from the fight or flight response in combat. Not only will you be more effective in combat, but you will have more skill points to back up your roleplay.

And on top of that the barbarian can choose class abilities that let him get more use out of charisma, should you want to play a charismatic leader guy. (the spirit totem line and the rage power that lets you intimidate as move action for example) meaning that the barbarian class is more versatile than the fighter class, too. (If you go by base class without archetypes)

But one thing the fighter has going for him: He can take a trait to up his armor by 1, evening out the armor value in the first comparison. No such trait for the barbarian.

Scarab Sages

Insain Dragoon wrote:

More dmg than a fighter

Higher ac
The ability to full attack on a charge
More skill points
Better skills

Who deals more damage is level dependent. It flips back and forth. We also only compared two-handed builds (keeping it simple). Fighters have the feats to go two-weapon fighting with sword & board. Much higher AC without sacrificing damage. (+5 heavy steel shield & greater shield focus = +9 AC.)

Full attack on a charge is build dependent for a fighter. While options certainly exist that allow a fighter to move and full attack, the fighter can also opt out and go archer.

Skills are archetype dependent. If I was building an archer, Lore Warden is the way to go, and that archetype matches the barbarian on skill points with a far larger number of class skills.


To be fair, dropping Beast Totem for Spirit lowers the AC something fierce. Even moar damage though.


Rynjin wrote:
To be fair, dropping Beast Totem for Spirit lowers the AC something fierce. Even moar damage though.

I just wanted to show that there are more ways you can go. Ways that are not open to the fighter. No feats let you change your pc that much like some rage powers.

But the one time I tired a spirit totem barbarian we had to fight a special tribe of lizardmen immune to negative energy and healed a little by it.

Scarab Sages

Umbranus wrote:
No feats let you change your pc that much like some rage powers.
Mounted Skirmisher wrote:


Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.

Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

Unlike a pouncing barbarian, the mounted skirmisher does not have to move in a straight line.


True. A Barbarian changes a LOT depending on his Rage Powers.

Artanthos wrote:


Who deals more damage is level dependent. It flips back and forth.

Hmmm, I don't think it flips very OFTEN though. I believe it's 9 and 10 for Fighter, then 17/18 or something like that. Then it wins at 20 again (solely because of Weapon Mastery being actually pretty baller).

Artanthos wrote:
We also only compared two-handed builds (keeping it simple). Fighters have the feats to go two-weapon fighting with sword & board. Much higher AC without sacrificing damage. (+5 heavy steel shield & greater shield focus = +9 AC.)

Barbarians don't really lack the Feats, it's not like they get few than other classes, who can also pull of sword and board TWFing.

However, Greater Shield Focus IS out of their reach (and handily closes the 1 AC gap that Beast Totem leaves), so that's a neat little boost if nothing else.

I think a Sword and Board comparison would be a little more even damage-wise (Barbarian loses out on an extra 3 damage or so a swing), but still skewed in the Barbarian's favor, though the Feat intensive build WOULD make the Fighter's Bonus Feats shine a bit more. Where the Barbarian would be spending all of his Feats almost on the Feats themselves, the Fighter would have some to spare (some of which are eaten by Shield Focus/Greater, but that still leaves a couple-three free).

Which kinda ties back into the off-handed remark that started this whole thing: The Bonus Feats are really the only reason to choose Fighter, not its other features.

Artanthos wrote:
Full attack on a charge is build dependent for a fighter. While options certainly exist that allow a fighter to move and full attack

Right, but they're all archetype (or Mounted Combat) specific, and none (bar Mounted Combat) are really as good as a straight up Pounce.

Weeeeeeeellllll, I take that back, for an unlikely archetype: The Two-Handed Fighter.

It's 19th level ability to trigger an auto-crit threat coupled with Weapon Mastery can be pretty ridiculous. Roll out with a Scythe or something and chillax while you deal x5 damage with a single swipe.

It's not really as good (can potentially miss or be deflected for zero damage) but it really fits my love of single attacks that do massive damage, so it has a special place in my heart.

Artanthos wrote:
the fighter can also opt out and go archer.

No argument.

Artanthos wrote:
Skills are archetype dependent. If I was building an archer, Lore Warden is the way to go, and that archetype matches the barbarian on skill points with a far larger number of class skills.

Honestly I don't think the "Lore Warden has the same number of skills" is quite fair, because it's not 100% true...the Barbarian has 4 skill points he can use on anything he likes, while the Lore Warden's are pre-applied almost to Knowledges (which it NEEDS to make its +2/+2 competence bonus kick in).

It's not a bad ability by any means (though the opinion from a certain dev that the archetype is overpowered because it gives too much for too little bodes ill for the class' future...), but not QUITE as good as a flat +2 skills a level.

A better comparison might be Tactician, which actually looks like a better archetype every time I take a look at it. It sheds three nigh useless abilities (Armor Training 3/4 and Bravery, one solid one (Weapon Training 1), and a Bonus Feat (par for the course for Fighter archetypes, really) in exchange for TRUE 4+Int skills, 3 useful class skills (plus Kn. Geography and Nobility), an eventual +5 to Initiative in place of that f@$#ing bonus versus Fear saves that gets me riled up every time I have to acknowledge it exists, an expanded Bonus Feat selection, Tactician (which is pretty interesting as abilities go), and an actual REASON to boost your Intelligence, at least slightly.

The main glaring issue with it, in my opinion, is that it was forced to give up anything at all for those additions.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

So with this we can say that assuming equal levels of min-max

Barbarians have
More dmg than a fighter
Better saves
More hp
Higher ac
More skill points
Better skills
The ability to full attack on a charge

The barbarian (unless armored hulk) will not have more AC until the mid levels, and at level 20 the fighter do more damage on full attacks. But yeah, the barbarian just win the race.

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