boot strapping the economy


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

Thannon Forsworn <RBL> wrote:

As long as the system allows coin to be removed from it entirely, there should be ways to slow inflation down. If coin can only enter the system but never actually leave it, then inflation will climb at some rate.

The other option is to carefully control the money supply so that the amount out there is finite and just being circulated between players as they do business and trade accumulated resources (which are spontaneously created in the system and spontaneously removed from the system via destruction). It's just a quantified barter system at that point, which is what fiat currency is.

Ryan posted that a closed system will inevitably lead to all the coin sitting in the banks of the elder players- he sees coin faucets as a necessary part of supporting new players, and coin drains as a necessary part of ensuring that old players can't trivialize the low level economy.


Guurzak wrote:
Ryan posted that a closed system will inevitably lead to all the coin sitting in the banks of the elder players- he sees coin faucets as a necessary part of supporting new players, and coin drains as a necessary part of ensuring that old players can't trivialize the low level economy.

Hmm that's an interesting take. It should only be a problem if there's no reason for the Elder players to put the money back in circulation. If they are just accumulating coin but never spending it the system failed somewhere long before that. But I can see how it might happen and as an easier alternative they should just try the faucet/drain technique.

Another weird finite money side effect is that players could just quit playing and tie up large sums of money in their banks. That alone might be reason enough to not do it, aside from the previous mentioned Elders accumulating all the money thing.

Goblin Squad Member

Please catch me up on the details. As I recall there are two cycles, coin and product.

Coin Cycle: Coin is found in loot drops (PvE). It is not part of drops in PvP. Players can exchange coin for product (including raw materials) (and vice versa) with markets or other players. Market prices should not differ exceptionally from player vs player sales. Some models have coin from sales not coming to producer until bought. Coin leaves game due to upkeep of community and POI (which is why there are taxes). Start loot, leave taxes.

Product (and raw material) Cycle: Raw material are introduced through look drops and harvesting. These can be sold on market for coin (see above). Players through skills, transform raw to products. Products are removed from game through 25% loss on death and percentage loss on death. I expect this is both PvE and PvP. Start loot or harvest, end 25% loss and decay.

What have i missed?

Goblin Squad Member

Hmmm maybe we need some method to see a history of traded goods. Otherwise it could be very difficult for players who don't trade often to set a price point. I could see people hording everything just because they don't want to make a bad deal.

Goblin Squad Member

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Lam wrote:
Coin Cycle: Coin is found in loot drops (PvE). It is not part of drops in PvP.

Minor correction on that.

We're currently working under the assumption that you'll have to get looted coins home and "tag base" with them to convert them into weightless, unstealable, non-inventory currency. This is in order to keep them part of the PvP economy for a reasonable amount of time (i.e., the time between when you get them and when you get home with them).

So, you might lose Copper Coins in PvP if you haven't gotten them home to convert them to "weightless, unstealable, non-inventory currency".

I think this is very cool.

Goblin Squad Member

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Sits on his pile of coins and gems in his mansion located in Phaeros.

Black Silver: "You. Boy. Go fetch me a crystal glass of water from Elkhaven."

Boy: "But my lord, that is all the way to the north west. It will take several days and I would have to pass through many dangerous areas."

Black Silver: "I don't care. Their water taste good. But if you are afraid of a few measly bandits," Tosses a bag full of platinum coins and gems to the boy. "Then go hire 1000 mercs to guard you. Just bring that water. Begone now whelp."

Goblin Squad Member

I think that's about it based on what we know so far, except that we don't have full info on coin drains yet. Drains at the character level may include costs of training and other NPC services. Drains at the settlement level may include structure purchase and upkeep as well as other possible drains such as relationship maintenance (alliances, nations, wars), capital projects like dragons, and who knows what else.

Goblin Squad Member

Tyveil wrote:
Hmmm maybe we need some method to see a history of traded goods. Otherwise it could be very difficult for players who don't trade often to set a price point. I could see people hording everything just because they don't want to make a bad deal.

I would very much like to see a Sales History report where we can see what items have sold for historically (30-90 days, maybe) at the local market.

Hrm... maybe Ideascale...

Goblin Squad Member

Coin leaves economy when players stop playing without spending it. May also leave economy if players are permitted to buy subscription time or ornaments with it.

Presumably some product or coin is lost when buildings are destroyed under siege.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Coin leaves economy when players stop playing without spending it.

Is it a terrible idea to impose a relatively low tax on the total Coin a player has, so that over time it's gradually reduced if there's not an income stream? It is, isn't it?

Goblin Squad Member

Net effect is the same- the coin leaves the economy.

What this would prevent is someone coming back from a long absence and distorting economy by dumping lots of coin at once. Which could be a problem, and maybe an idle tax is a decent way to address that, but I'm not sure that the game would be better off by disincenting players to return.

Goblin Squad Member

I think the answer is probably already considered, for the system to track stored coin and increase drops to compensate for it. Current total in bank for more than X months - previous total in bank for more than X months = increased drops from PvE this month. A delay could be put on money that has been in storage more than X months, such that the player still has it, but can't spend it quickly. Maybe with a set floor of what is in the average account, so people aren't left helpless upon return, with the balance being freed up over 30 or 60 days so that loot drops can be re-jiggered to account for its return to the economy.

Actual governments do this now. Money in bank accounts in Canada that is unclaimed after 10 years must be transferred to the bank of Canada. There is then a drawn out process for reclaiming it.

Goblin Squad Member

Quote:

Coin Cycle: Coin is found in loot drops (PvE). It is not part of drops in PvP. Players can exchange coin for product (including raw materials) (and vice versa) with markets or other players. Market prices should not differ exceptionally from player vs player sales. Some models have coin from sales not coming to producer until bought. Coin leaves game due to upkeep of community and POI (which is why there are taxes). Start loot, leave taxes.

Product (and raw material) Cycle: Raw material are introduced through look drops and harvesting. These can be sold on market for coin (see above). Players through skills, transform raw to products. Products are removed from game through 25% loss on death and percentage loss on death. I expect this is both PvE and PvP. Start loot or harvest, end 25% loss and decay.

I would revise this to correct the coin drain language and to add a third product cycle. I'd also skip language about trading one class of goods for another since that doesn't increase or decrease total supply.

Coin Cycle: Coin is found in loot drops (PvE). Coin leaves game via NPC services including training and building upkeep.

Material Cycle: Raw and salavageable materials are introduced through loot drops and harvesting. Players transform raw materials to intermediate and finished products. Materials and products are removed from game through damage or destruction at time of death.

Bulk Goods Cycle: Bulk goods are continuously produced at Outposts. Bulk goods may be destroyed by raids or during transport, and are consumed by settlement maintenance.

CEO, Goblinworks

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I think that right now Coal is the fundamental unit of account but that may just be a bad assumption.

You need Coal to make magic swords and everyone is going to want a magic sword and Coal only drops in any meaningful amount in one hex. Iron (the other major component for swords) is dropped all over the map. So the rate at which swords can be made is dependent on Coal, which means Coal is therefore a proxy for value in the game's economy.

You also need Leather Strips. I do not have the Leather Strips recipe. But I really really want one.

BTW, I will trade Coal for recipes and recipes for Coal. If you wanna make a deal, post your offer here or on the Alpha Forums so everyone in Alpha can see the market prices.

CEO, Goblinworks

A note about Rust

For those who don't know, Rust is a game that is on Steam Early Access. It is made by the team who also make Gary's Mod, one of the most popular tools for manipulating Valve's Source Engine.

Rust has generated at least $20 million in revenues.

Rust is very close to any rational definition of "minimum viable product". It is substantially more minimum than Pathfinder Online's Alpha, with one major exception. Right now you can create persistent structures in Rust and you cannot do that in Pathfinder Online yet.

Rust has one character model. You start naked, with a rock. Everything you get in the game comes from your interactions with the environment and with other players. There are guns, and guns can kill you from a distance.

You, and some number of other people, are on an island. There are zombies on this island but they are mostly a nuisance. The real danger comes from the other human players. Also on the island are trees (which you can bash with the rock to generate lumber), a couple of animals (which you can bash with the rock to get uncooked meat) and supplies, which fall from the sky at random intervals. In some of the existing structures are some more advanced items like clothes and weapons and some information on how to combine various things in the environment to make more types of objects.

The game is essentially Lord of the Flies. There's virtually nothing to do except scavenge for stuff, build simple structures from cubes of wood & metal, and hunt other players. The graphics are extremely basic. The UI is almost non-existent. There is no manual or help system.

Compared to Rust, which is a success by any normal definition, Pathfinder Online is a much more advanced game with many more things to do and see and ways to interact. If Rust can capture an audience (and it has), I have really optimistic feelings about Pathfinder Online. So watching Rust has been quite heartening.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ryan Dancey wrote:

I think that right now Coal is the fundamental unit of account but that may just be a bad assumption.

You need Coal to make magic swords and everyone is going to want a magic sword and Coal only drops in any meaningful amount in one hex. Iron (the other major component for swords) is dropped all over the map. So the rate at which swords can be made is dependent on Coal, which means coal is therefore a proxy for value in the game's economy.

You also need Leather Strips. I do not have the Leather Strips recipe. But I really really want one.

BTW, I will trade Coal for recipes and recipes for Coal. If you wanna make a deal, post your offer here or on the Alpha Forums so everyone in Alpha can see the market prices.

I'm not sure at the moment what recipes I have, but if I had leather strips +1 and/ +2 recipe, what would your offer?

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Compared to Rust, which is a success by any normal definition, Pathfinder Online is a much more advanced game with many more things to do and see and ways to interact. If Rust can capture an audience (and it has), I have really optimistic feelings about Pathfinder Online. So watching Rust has been quite heartening.

I would point out that Rust does not have all of the history and baggage a game called PATHFINDER online does.

I have a strong suspicion people going into rust are going there specifically because it is the exact game you described.

Unlike them you will have to deal with all of the preconceived notions everyone who has ever heard of Pathfinder or D&D have.

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Chatting with Ryan the other day, he was very excited about the beginning of Early Enrollment when everyone will start the game with 0 XP, no Role-based Feats, and a Club.

I hope he is not forgetting this:

$10 - Class Pack

When characters arrive in the River Kingdoms in Pathfinder Online, they do so with little wealth or equipment to their name. A Class Pack will provide the character with a selection of items appropriate to a lower level character
of the class selected when the class pack is used. Each pack will include a weapon, a suit of armor (torso, legs, and helmet if applicable), and three or four other items of such as thieves tools, shields, boots, gloves, belts, hats,
etc. One Class Pack is required per character. You may purchase this Add-On multiple times.

I am curious, would people consider this to constitute "pay to win" in a pvp based game where everyone else starts pretty much naked?

At what point does something like like cross the line from "a cash store that does not provide anything of significant mechanical advantage" which is I believe how GW advertised a proposed cash store to one that is Pay to Win?

Goblin Squad Member

I would see this as "pay for a couple hours head start which will be completely meaningless a week from now", which is a little different from pay to win.

We'll be starting in safe zones so you don't have to worry about being killed for your club.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, 'significant' is the key word here. Starting the game with some gear that gives you a head start but is in no way top tier is not pay to win.

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:

I would see this as "pay for a couple hours head start which will be completely meaningless a week from now", which is a little different from pay to win.

We'll be starting in safe zones so you don't have to worry about being killed for your club.

I have to agree. We could nit pick this to death. The Alpha players have a bit of an advantage as well. Is that pay to win?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Summersnow wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Chatting with Ryan the other day, he was very excited about the beginning of Early Enrollment when everyone will start the game with 0 XP, no Role-based Feats, and a Club.

I hope he is not forgetting this:

$10 - Class Pack

When characters arrive in the River Kingdoms in Pathfinder Online, they do so with little wealth or equipment to their name. A Class Pack will provide the character with a selection of items appropriate to a lower level character
of the class selected when the class pack is used. Each pack will include a weapon, a suit of armor (torso, legs, and helmet if applicable), and three or four other items of such as thieves tools, shields, boots, gloves, belts, hats,
etc. One Class Pack is required per character. You may purchase this Add-On multiple times.

I am curious, would people consider this to constitute "pay to win" in a pvp based game where everyone else starts pretty much naked?

At what point does something like like cross the line from "a cash store that does not provide anything of significant mechanical advantage" which is I believe how GW advertised a proposed cash store to one that is Pay to Win?

It becomes Pay to Win at the point where the playing field is divided into those who have purchased, and those who have not.

CEO, Goblinworks

I think you'll start with XP too. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Do you mean the Class Pack will give you some XP if you buy it, or that all new characters will begin with a some XP? I am assuming it is the latter, but I wanted clarification.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
We're currently working under the assumption that you'll have to get looted coins home and "tag base" with them to convert them into weightless, unstealable, non-inventory currency. This is in order to keep them part of the PvP economy for a reasonable amount of time (i.e., the time between when you get them and when you get home with them).

This is very encouraging.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'd suggest finding a baseline item that everyone uses, e.g. leather boots, and attributing it the value of "1 gp", then basing everything else off of how much effort, time, and "expenses" it takes comparatively.

just saying. It will cause things to be hectic, but that is kind of good. one dominant merchanting group will come to fore and people will start basing their coins on that group's coin because it works well, and thus we have the creation of coin-value.

>insert more thorough description

"But Zael, what if all the merchants make the prices ridiculously high, and there is no other logistically feasible way to acquire it. What should we do? what happens then?"

simple: 1) some savvy group will come in and lower their prices
2) kick the merchants around. raid their stuff, etc. I hear a certain company which SHAN'T BE NAMED is good at that sort of thing.
3) I happen.
4) Contact me, Lifedragn, etc. about it and we can give you relevant advice (me because I am dedicated to such fights, Lifedragn because he is dedicated to helping those being taken advantage of. If you want me to remove your name, friend... well too bad ;) heh).

Goblin Squad Member

BrotherZael wrote:
I'd suggest finding a baseline item that everyone uses, e.g. leather boots, and attributing it the value of "1 gp", then basing everything else off of how much effort, time, and "expenses" it takes comparatively.

One can set as many baselines as one chooses. If people decide Cabbage Patch Dolls or Morbis's underwear is worth more than you set it at, they will pay what they need to to get it.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
We're currently working under the assumption that you'll have to get looted coins home and "tag base" with them to convert them into weightless, unstealable, non-inventory currency. This is in order to keep them part of the PvP economy for a reasonable amount of time (i.e., the time between when you get them and when you get home with them).
This is very encouraging.

I thought you'd like that. I really liked it, too :)

Goblin Squad Member

In a real economy you have two kinds of items- goods that are consumed for what they can give to the person, which follow the famous rule of supply and demand, and assets which follow a rule the opposite of that being the higher the price is getting makes the asset perceived as more valuable (i.e. gold, tech stocks, real estate, etc.) unless it's bubble pops and the price plummets.

Each character can use only so many goods regardless of how much wealth is available to it so most wealth beyond what can buy a useable amount of goods goes into assets. If you're worried about wealth inequality between old players and new ones most of that old player wealth will be contained in assets (trying to create more wealth).

So my interrelated questions: is the game being purposefully designed with some items specifically to be assets, or goods that can be created abundantly enough they can be stockpiled and traded like assets (commodities). What proportion of total items will such assets and commodified goods be?

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote: wrote:


We're currently working under the assumption that you'll have to get looted coins home and "tag base" with them to convert them into weightless, unstealable, non-inventory currency. This is in order to keep them part of the PvP economy for a reasonable amount of time (i.e., the time between when you get them and when you get home with them).

I have a question about coinage and how it will function that maybe someone can answer (a Dev possibly). I was under the impression that coinage would be a physical object (and the ref above states this is true until you tag home) that while it could be banked at your settlement making it unstealable while banked, it would have to then be transported physically to any other settlement in order to be used there. This would allow for large sums of coinage to have weight, and need lots of protection, when being transported to another settlement for a big purchase. The same would go for merchants visiting other settlements, where once their goods were sold, they would have to transport the coinage back to their own settlement for deposit in the bank, thereby making it unstealable.

Is that the case? Can this tagging home be done in any settlement, at any bank, or just your settlement?

This would not negate the above ref by Mr. Cheney, it would enhance interaction between players, so that any time you wanted to secure funds for a purchase or from a sale, you would have to have some risk of losing it as it would be physically on your person. Making it permanently unstealable once in the bank, in my opinion, would just create a constant stream of running home every time you have any coinage on you, and would reduce the risk of losing it to bandits (actually nullify it completely for any large sum, as who is stupid enough to stray far without banking it first?), or even just another player, or on death in PvE, on any trip to any other settlement, if it is completely secure and available at all times once banked the first time.

If funds have to be physically transported outside of the bank as coinage, like they get in their loot, it would create so many more layers to financial transactions, and the economy in general. Stealing it from others in larger sums would actually be possible, it would create work for others in protecting it, cause prices to fluctuate based on the ability to get funds to a location and so forth. If this isn't the case, it seems like we lose out on some interesting possibilities.

It is of course much safer to have the funds permanently unstealable once you tag home, but I feel it certainly removes many possible aspects of the economy game, both positive and negative, and in the end sets up a circuit of constantly tagging home. Also, you could end up with huge sums of coinage that would not physically be possible to carry, always at your fingertips. While simple and not really a problem, to me it seems like less meaningful interaction would occur with the loss of coinage as a physical object, and in turn would reduce the options in the economy game.

Please let me know if anyone has more detail on any of the above, or feels one way or the other about it. Should this be something added to Ideascale? Coinage outside of Banks is always a physical object?

Goblin Squad Member

The in game solution will be the bank company. You have 100 in X and you want 90 in Y. Tell your banker in X and make contract for delivery of 90 (or what ever discount you negotiate) in X. arrive in Y and that banker gives you 90 per contract. Banker makes money hand over fist. Any banker who is case will be shut down by communities from CE to LG! (CE may have fun first).

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Ryan may be by to explain the greater context and economic theory. But from what I recall, the conversation last year went something like this (all dialogue paraphrased for comedic effect):

Me and Tork: "Hey, what if we just ditched the magic sky bank idea completely? All coin is an item, always! You have to risk it every time you want to move it outside a given settlement."
Ryan: "You're clearly very excited about this so finish designing it out. I think you'll realize that you don't want to do that, though..."

A few days later...

Me and Tork: "WAIT! If coin is always an object and always has weight, it'll completely limit the economy to the amount of money you can physically carry. Best case scenario, we've set an unnecessary anchor on how much items can be valued for. Worst case scenario, everyone turns a rare, lightweight item into a fiat currency and all trades take place outside the markets where we can't get metrics on them. We create a distinction between the people that know how to access this gray market and the people that are stuck lugging around backpacks full of gold pieces hoping someone will sell what they need for cash. We'll be creating a whole market system that's an elaborate newbie trap. We have to go back!"
Ryan: "I'm not going to say I told you so... but I told you so."

:)

So the current plan is our experiment of a hybrid of making cash entering the game losable for as long as possible before it cycles into the "could cost millions of coin which would be very heavy and annoying to move around" part of the economy.

And we're still not totally clear exactly what qualifies as "tagging base." It's likely to be more permissive than making you go to a specific home settlement. It's also likely to be automatic on proximity rather than making you remember to literally go click the bank every time you go back to town.

Goblin Squad Member

In how many banks can we have for coin?

What about property lockers for non coin products? What is the cost? WIll that be set by settlement (YES)?

How much (property lockers) will a settlement have or is that related to a specific building?

For that matter, how will settlements regulate coin bank accounts?

This may be too soon to ask these Qs.

CEO, Goblinworks

I really dislike the idea of coin having mass or volume because I envision a time when merchants will transact in the millions of coins. The weight & volume coin system that makes sense for a character with a coin purse just doesn't work when the economy is at a scale driven by tens of thousands of characters.

Goblin Squad Member

Lam wrote:

In how many banks can we have for coin?

What about property lockers for non coin products? What is the cost? WIll that be set by settlement (YES)?

How much (property lockers) will a settlement have or is that related to a specific building?

For that matter, how will settlements regulate coin bank accounts?

This may be too soon to ask these Qs.

If inderstood correctly, money you bring home sort of enters a magical bank account, it's not stored in any particular bank - it's just a number attached to your character, sort of like your XP or reputation.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
We're currently working under the assumption that you'll have to get looted coins home and "tag base" with them to convert them into weightless, unstealable, non-inventory currency. This is in order to keep them part of the PvP economy for a reasonable amount of time (i.e., the time between when you get them and when you get home with them).
This is very encouraging.
I thought you'd like that. I really liked it, too :)

It does answer a few questions about SADs. The way I see it:

1. SAD of a merchant caravan will more than likely yield more resources or finished product than coin.

2. SAD of an adventuring party will more than likely yield more coin and adventure gear / loot.

These present two very different forms of robbery. The first may be more settlement driven, and the other more individual greed driven.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
I really dislike the idea of coin having mass or volume because I envision a time when merchants will transact in the millions of coins. The weight & volume coin system that makes sense for a character with a coin purse just doesn't work when the economy is at a scale driven by tens of thousands of characters.

For large transactions, coins were not used, ingots were used instead. What I can't envision is anything short of the selling of a settlement spot costing millions in a fantasy based MMO were the best gear is player crafted.

How Much Does a Silver Dollar Weigh?
The newer, modern dollars weigh approximately 8.1 grams. A larger silver dollar, such as the old Morgan dollars are 26.73 grams. All silver coins older than 1965 are worth ten times the face value minimum based on silver content alone.

How many grams in a pound?
Answer
1 pound (lb.) = 453.59237 grams

Rough estimate = 17 silver coins to a pound
One Million Coins (silver) = 58, 823 pounds

Wagon capacity dependent on type (obviously)

Wagons from Roman through 18th Century

Grand Lodge

Bluddwolf wrote:


It does answer a few questions about SADs. The way I see it:

1. SAD of a merchant caravan will more than likely yield more resources or finished product than coin.

2. SAD of an adventuring party will more than likely yield more coin and adventure gear / loot.

These present two very different forms of robbery. The first may be more settlement driven, and the other more individual greed driven.

From a Merchants perspective I would say given the direction my caravans will travel will determine what I have to offer on any given occasion.

If I only have Raw Materials and Finished Goods I'd first do a headcount for guards, look for traitors, check the odds, and if I thought I stood a reasonable chance of losing everything I'd probably have to "skim some off the top." or possibly have some kind of insurance policy to cover expenses.

I doubt I will carry more coin than I think I should personally spend on any given trip though, but if we are in fact combing back home, with a wad of cash... you see where I'm going with this.

In either case though the effects would likely be felt most keenly tbe the Settlement itself, not my person.

Goblin Squad Member

I think that your coin will be banked and transfered to your fey-run bank account once you sell your wares Carbon. If I'm not mistaken, when you are in a safe spot (settlement), money you have are "uploaded" to your account and safe. Like how coins in super mario are counted and added to your score after you complete a level.

That's not saying that a bandit couldn't demand money from you in an SAD, the money then being transferred from your account into physical items that the bandit would then have to get to his hideout in order to "cash in" himself.

That was at least the picture I got of how money works.

Grand Lodge

Wurner wrote:

I think that your coin will be banked and transfered to your fey-run bank account once you sell your wares Carbon. If I'm not mistaken, when you are in a safe spot (settlement), money you have are "uploaded" to your account and safe. Like how coins in super mario are counted and added to your score after you complete a level.

That's not saying that a bandit couldn't demand money from you in an SAD, the money then being transferred from your account into physical items that the bandit would then have to get to his hideout in order to "cash in" himself.

That was at least the picture I got of how money works.

That's quite nice, but I'm some transactions will take place outside the Settlements themselves, in the wilderness, during escalations,(Greetings friend, goods for sale! Weary traveler, would you like some nice refreshing springwater? How about wine?) and at some POIs as well.

Scarab Sages

Nihimon wrote:
It was actually quite infectious chatting with him and sensing his enthusiasm for the game. I had to force myself to stop monopolizing him, but I was glad he got the opportunity to chat a bit with Kemedo and I think he even helped him through a problem or two.

Was Mac Ryan? NICE!

Oh, That's why you take some time to tell me how to chat in general, you wanted to monopoly their attention... HAHAHAHAHAH jking

Well, thank you both for that day. I was a bit lost...

Goblin Squad Member

Summersnow wrote:
I am curious, would people consider this to constitute "pay to win" in a pvp based game where everyone else starts pretty much naked?

Which people? There are all too many people who will consider this pay to win. Those will consider it pay to win if they have to pay for internet connectivity too.

People who prefer fact to opinion are unlikely to consider it pay to win.

Goblin Squad Member

From what I've seen, purchaseable boost packs for new characters are common in MMORPGs and are generally accepted and uncontroversial (although not universally appreciated).

Goblin Squad Member

Wurner wrote:
...(although not universally appreciated).

I admit most games' boards are too poisonous for my taste, so I don't follow anywhere but here. People really object to these "only have a small effect for the first few hours" things? Why?

Goblin Squad Member

Summersnow wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Chatting with Ryan the other day, he was very excited about the beginning of Early Enrollment when everyone will start the game with 0 XP, no Role-based Feats, and a Club.

I hope he is not forgetting this:

$10 - Class Pack

When characters arrive in the River Kingdoms in Pathfinder Online, they do so with little wealth or equipment to their name. A Class Pack will provide the character with a selection of items appropriate to a lower level character
of the class selected when the class pack is used. Each pack will include a weapon, a suit of armor (torso, legs, and helmet if applicable), and three or four other items of such as thieves tools, shields, boots, gloves, belts, hats,
etc. One Class Pack is required per character. You may purchase this Add-On multiple times.

I am curious, would people consider this to constitute "pay to win" in a pvp based game where everyone else starts pretty much naked?

At what point does something like like cross the line from "a cash store that does not provide anything of significant mechanical advantage" which is I believe how GW advertised a proposed cash store to one that is Pay to Win?

This class pack or other starter gear is just that, low level crap gear that you will likely out skill in a day or two.

If you're that anxious to get it, rob or kill someone and loot it from them. Now some of the other items in the store have more potential for long lasting benefit. I purchased Monument and Twice Marked for both my Main and DT, but only Monument is still available. Regional Traits, which I also bought two, also have long lasting benefits.

Goblin Squad Member

Summersnow wrote:
At what point does something like like cross the line from "a cash store that does not provide anything of significant mechanical advantage" which is I believe how GW advertised a proposed cash store to one that is Pay to Win?
Ryan Dancey wrote:
But there's no limit on what we'll charge or make if we think there's a market for it for items that don't constitute a meaningful mechanical advantage, and that don't distort or destroy the fundamental game system that is the player-driven economy.

-----------------------------

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
I admit most games' boards are too poisonous for my taste, so I don't follow anywhere but here. People really object to these "only have a small effect for the first few hours" things? Why?

(imho:) One can view MMO as an amusement park with certain entertainments included - then cash shop means nothing. Or one can view it as a world where he could "live", and this "life" would only depend on in-game actions. In this case cash shop is a nuisance cause it ruins the immension in the game world. Even cosmetics - still annoying. Usually in a person both of these concepts co-exist to a certain degree. Nowdays the first view seem to dominate and the mentality of second is weak enough for the majority of people to put up with microtransactions, so since the latter give more profit - they are intoduced everywhere.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
We're currently working under the assumption that you'll have to get looted coins home and "tag base" with them to convert them into weightless, unstealable, non-inventory currency. This is in order to keep them part of the PvP economy for a reasonable amount of time (i.e., the time between when you get them and when you get home with them).
This is very encouraging.
I thought you'd like that. I really liked it, too :)

I never thought that red bandits and other "pre flagged delicacies" could have COIN on them. This is nice. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
We're currently working under the assumption that you'll have to get looted coins home and "tag base" with them to convert them into weightless, unstealable, non-inventory currency. This is in order to keep them part of the PvP economy for a reasonable amount of time (i.e., the time between when you get them and when you get home with them).
This is very encouraging.
I thought you'd like that. I really liked it, too :)
I never thought that red bandits and other "pre flagged delicacies" could have COIN on them. This is nice. :)

An extra incentive for anti-banditry Companies and groups.

Goblin Squad Member

Black Silver of The Veiled, T7V wrote:
An extra incentive for anti-banditry Companies and groups.

For those who thirst for blood, combat needs no additional incentive.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

Ryan may be by to explain the greater context and economic theory. But from what I recall, the conversation last year went something like this (all dialogue paraphrased for comedic effect):

Me and Tork: "Hey, what if we just ditched the magic sky bank idea completely? All coin is an item, always! You have to risk it every time you want to move it outside a given settlement."
Ryan: "You're clearly very excited about this so finish designing it out. I think you'll realize that you don't want to do that, though..."

A few days later...

Me and Tork: "WAIT! If coin is always an object and always has weight, it'll completely limit the economy to the amount of money you can physically carry. Best case scenario, we've set an unnecessary anchor on how much items can be valued for. Worst case scenario, everyone turns a rare, lightweight item into a fiat currency and all trades take place outside the markets where we can't get metrics on them. We create a distinction between the people that know how to access this gray market and the people that are stuck lugging around backpacks full of gold pieces hoping someone will sell what they need for cash. We'll be creating a whole market system that's an elaborate newbie trap. We have to go back!"
Ryan: "I'm not going to say I told you so... but I told you so."

:)

So the current plan is our experiment of a hybrid of making cash entering the game losable for as long as possible before it cycles into the "could cost millions of coin which would be very heavy and annoying to move around" part of the economy.

And we're still not totally clear exactly what qualifies as "tagging base." It's likely to be more permissive than making you go to a specific home settlement. It's also likely to be automatic on proximity rather than making you remember to literally go click the bank every time you go back to town.

Thank you very much for the response! I understand how this could be the case and I do like the hybrid idea very much as it at least allows some interaction for a while. Have discussions been down the road of coinage being able to be converted into higher valued coins, gems, or other objects of value, but of less weight, once you tag home? Or that you could have a banking function to do the conversion manually as desired, breaking it back down into smaller currency if needed? This would allowing the scaling of weight to be a factor, but not a huge factor. I know that this may not be something that matters much in the scheme of things, but to me the loss of the (virtual) physical object loses something very meaningful.

When everyone is walking around with a dragon's hoard worth of ethereal coins that can only be effected by that character, the world seems lesser to me. There is a huge scope of play that could be run specifically around funds moving around the River Kingdoms. The permanently weightless/safe side feels like it takes that completely off the table and relegates it into the "money is magic" realm, like the Golarion equivalent to Debit cards with no chance of risk once it is tagged home. I know I am arguing for huge potential loss in some events, but isn't that quite meaningful?

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