Foregoing natural attacks because of weapons (and other questions)?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Quote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam).

Say I'm a humanoid NPC with claw x2, bite, and two daggers. It's my understanding that primary = full bab and 1.5 str and secondary = bab -5 and .5 str, so correct me also if I'm wrong about that.

1) If I attack with a single natural weapon and nothing else, it's a primary natural attack even though I have other natural weapons?

2) If I swing with both weapons, and attack with bite, is the bite primary or secondary?

3) After swinging with daggers, I cannot then drop the daggers to then swing with claws? (or do anything else to weapon attack and natural attack with the same hand?)

4) If attacking with only natural weapons (bite, claw x2) the bite is primary and the claws are secondary?

5) If I only have one natural weapon and it's a claw, and attack with a dagger and a claw (separate hands) the claw is considered secondary since I'm also doing a weapon attack? Also, this is considered Two-Weapon Fighting?


1. If it is a primary weapon, then yes. Primary natural attacks include: bites, claws, slams, etc. Secondary natural attacks include: pincers, tail slaps, talons, wing attacks, etc.

2. Primary weapons stay that way until you actually use the daggers. Everything is secondary when you use a manufactured weapon

3. No, you can only get 1 attack sequence per limb. That goes for natual attacks and manufactured weapons. For example, you can't use a greatsword, and then drop it and continue the full attack with a pair of daggers either.

4.Natural weapons do not force eachother into primary or secondary.You can have as many primary natural attacks as you can acquire.

5. No, it would not be TWF. That is only when you use multiple manufactured weapons at once. The only attack to suffer in that case would be the claw. Manufactured weapons are not really affected by natural attacks other than 'one sequence per limb' rule.

Sczarni

claudekennilol wrote:
Say I'm a humanoid NPC with claw x2, bite, and two daggers. It's my understanding that primary = full bab and 1.5 str and secondary = bab -5 and .5 str, so correct me also if I'm wrong about that.

Not quite. Primary = Full BAB & 1x STR mod damage. Secondary = BAB -5 & .5x STR mod damage. Only if you have 1 type of Natural attack does it get the 1.5x STR mod to damage. Note that if you had 2 claws (which are a single type, and primary) you wouldn't get this extra damage if you just made 1 attack with a single claw.

Natural Attacks wrote:
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.

Here are my answers to your other questions.

1) No. See above.
2) Secondary
3) That's how I read it.
4) No. If your claws & bite attacks are all Primary, they are all Primary and get full BAB & 1x STR mod to damage.
5) Yes the claw would be considered secondary. No it's not considered TWF. Your weapon (dagger) would be made at your BAB and your claw would be made at BAB - 5. If you were high enough level that your BAB was +6 and you had an iterative at +1 you could make two Dagger attacks at +6/+1 respectively and a Claw at -5.

edit: Ninja'd. And it looks like Lemeres and I are in agreement

Grand Lodge

lemeres wrote:
1. If it is a primary weapon, then yes. Primary natural attacks include: bites, claws, slams, etc. Secondary natural attacks include: pincers, tail slaps, talons, wing attacks, etc.

I see, I missed that the example I was pulling from actually labeled the claws as primary, also.

Quote:
2. Primary weapons stay that way until you actually use the daggers. Everything is secondary when you use a manufactured weapon

So to clarify, all natural attacks are secondary when used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon?

Quote:
3. No, you can only get 1 attack sequence per limb. That goes for natual attacks and manufactured weapons. For example, you can't use a greatsword, and then drop it and continue the full attack with a pair of daggers either.

Thanks, that's a good comparison.

Quote:

5. No, it would not be TWF. That is only when you use multiple manufactured weapons at once. The only attack to suffer in that case would be the claw. Manufactured weapons are not really affected by natural attacks other than 'one sequence per limb' rule.

What is this quote referring to, then?

CRB wrote:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in

combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used
for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw
attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a
longsword. When you make additional attacks in this
way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary
natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus
5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modif ier on
damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and
Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce
these penalties.

So what about a bite combined with a monk's unarmed attack? Would the bite still be considered primary since the monk isn't using a manufactured weapon?


claudekennilol wrote:
Quote:
2. Primary weapons stay that way until you actually use the daggers. Everything is secondary when you use a manufactured weapon
So to clarify, all natural attacks are secondary when used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon?

That is how it works, yes.

claudekennilol wrote:
Quote:

5. No, it would not be TWF. That is only when you use multiple manufactured weapons at once. The only attack to suffer in that case would be the claw. Manufactured weapons are not really affected by natural attacks other than 'one sequence per limb' rule.

What is this quote referring to, then?

CRB wrote:

You can make attacks with natural weapons in

combination with attacks made with a melee weapon
and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used
for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw
attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a
longsword. When you make additional attacks in this
way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary
natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus
5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modif ier on
damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and
Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce
these penalties.
So what about a bite combined with a monk's unarmed attack? Would the bite still be considered primary since the monk isn't using a manufactured weapon?

Unfortunately, unarmed strikes should generally be considered manufactured weapons for this, since they get iterative attacks. So your natural weapons would become secondary if you threw in a kick.

I should also note- the flurry of blows does not allow natural attacks to be added onto it. You can use something called Feral Combat training to get a natural attack to gain any bonuses to unarmed strikes and use it in flurry.... but unfortunately, that just means that it is a monk weapon, allowing you to only do the normal number of attacks.

Also, if you use TWF, its -2 penalty does not apply to any natural attacks you use. Outside of the 'one 1 attack set per limb' and the 'mixing causes natural attacks to become secondary', you can usually view them as in their own little world away from manufactured weapons

Sczarni

@claudekennilol: That quote you took from the SRD is the post errata version of this quote from my 4th printing CRB;

Pre-Erratta CRB, page 182 wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack (see the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) can reduce these penalties

As you can see they removed a couple of very important sentences that are relevant to the text you bolded... Without the missing text the bolded part in your post makes little sense. It probably should have been errata's as well.

Grand Lodge

I remembered my last question now.

Do you only get to use all of your natural attacks if making a full-attack action? If using a standard action you only get one natural attack?


If you are using a Standard Action to attack, you only get one attack, whether natural or manufactured.


lemeres wrote:
3. No, you can only get 1 attack sequence per limb. That goes for natual attacks and manufactured weapons. For example, you can't use a greatsword, and then drop it and continue the full attack with a pair of daggers either.

I hear people say that a lot and it sounds logical enough, but is it actually in the rules?

Edit:

The closest I could find is:

Quote:
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

"Although often..." is fairly weak language. It makes you wonder what exceptions they were considering when they worded it that way.

Sczarni

Melkiador wrote:
"Although often..." is fairly weak language. It makes you wonder what exceptions they were considering when they worded it that way.

Probably pretty common exceptions. For example; a Half-Orc Fighter with a Falchion and a bite attack. It doesn't make sense that the character would have to forgo their bite attack in order to attack with their Falchion.

However, a Rakshasa with Claw/Claw/Bite wielding a +1 Kukri would need to forgo a claw attack in order to attack with the Kukri.

"Often" seems appropriate.


Combat wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.


Krodjin wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
"Although often..." is fairly weak language. It makes you wonder what exceptions they were considering when they worded it that way.

Probably pretty common exceptions. For example; a Half-Orc Fighter with a Falchion and a bite attack. It doesn't make sense that the character would have to forgo their bite attack in order to attack with their Falchion.

However, a Rakshasa with Claw/Claw/Bite wielding a +1 Kukri would need to forgo a claw attack in order to attack with the Kukri.

"Often" seems appropriate.

Unless the orc is wielding it in his mouth, I don't see how your example triggers the "Although often...", clause, as it is explicitly referring to weapons "clutched in that limb".

It just seems that without a known exception, why would they even bother with the phrase "Although often". The statement would be, in all ways, better without it.


Suppose the creature does not have a claw attack -- just a bite attack. They would not need to give up their natural attack to use a weapon.

Grand Lodge

Brf wrote:
Combat wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.

Then what's keeping me from on a monk, making my primary unarmed blows via my feet and not using my arms so I can use a claw attack?


claudekennilol wrote:
Brf wrote:
Combat wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.
Then what's keeping me from on a monk, making my primary unarmed blows via my feet and not using my arms so I can use a claw attack?

Can you not do that? I figured the monk attacks would count as armed attacks, pushing the natural attacks to being secondary natural attacks.


Brf wrote:
Suppose the creature does not have a claw attack -- just a bite attack. They would not need to give up their natural attack to use a weapon.

That still has nothing to do with the "Although often" phrase though.

Quote:
(although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam)

Being in parentheses, this statement is self contained.

Although often
*a creature
**forgo attacks
***for a weapon clutched in limb

The "although often" is clearly only referring to natural attacks being prohibited, by weapons held using the same limb that uses those attacks. It is also stating the option that there exists a case where this is not always true.

An Orc axe and bite has nothing to do with this, unless he is wielding the weapon in his mouth.


claudekennilol wrote:
Brf wrote:
Combat wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.
Then what's keeping me from on a monk, making my primary unarmed blows via my feet and not using my arms so I can use a claw attack?

Besides the fact that flurry of blows would not allow them to mix? Nothing really. You could use the regular TWF feats to get 2 kicks in, and then bite/claw/clawhttps://secure.paizo.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Store.woa/wa/Dire ctAction/editPost?post=v5748gbimt9fn#newPost

Remember, however, that unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons for this (they get iterative attacks). So all the natural attacks would become secondary, and only get .5x Str and power attack damage, and they would hit for BAB -5 (unless you have multiattack; -2 then).

Secondary attacks are usually not worth it....on their own. If you have multiattack so they could hit reliably, and then some form of bonus damage on each hit (sneak attack, favored enemy, smite evil, fighter stuff, etc), then sure, having 'more attacks' might well be better than having 'better attacks'.


Your "Although often" phrase is meant to be a flavor sentence, not a rules sentence.
The "often" part of it means that "not all" creatures will have to give up an attack, simply because they do not have a natural attack with that limb.

I quoted the rules sentence above:

Combat wrote:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack.

Sczarni

Melkiador wrote:
Brf wrote:
Suppose the creature does not have a claw attack -- just a bite attack. They would not need to give up their natural attack to use a weapon.

That still has nothing to do with the "Although often" phrase though.

Quote:
(although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam)

Being in parentheses, this statement is self contained.

Although often
*a creature
**forgo attacks
***for a weapon clutched in limb

The "although often" is clearly only referring to natural attacks being prohibited, by weapons held using the same limb that uses those attacks. It is also stating the option that there exists a case where this is not always true.

An Orc axe and bite has nothing to do with this, unless he is wielding the weapon in his mouth.

How about this...

Can a creature with 2 claws, a bite, and a tail make an attack with a Dagger? Yes, but they must forgo a claw attack in order to do so.

Can a creature with 2 claws, a bite, and a tail TWF with a longsword and a dagger? Yes, but they must forgo both claw attacks in order to TWF with the longsword and dagger?

Can a creature with 2 claws, a bite, and a tail make an attack with Unarmed Strikes? Yes, and because the UAS can be made with any part of their body they do not have to forgo any of their natural attacks.

While it is legal for a Creature to combine Natural attacks with manufactured weapon attacks, often they must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam

The exception you are looking for is not the Natural Attack, but rather the manufactured weapon.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Foregoing natural attacks because of weapons (and other questions)? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.